FUTR Beta with Lightning Rods Mid Drive

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.
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LightningRods   10 MW

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FUTR Beta with Lightning Rods Mid Drive

Post by LightningRods » Jul 03 2017 9:39pm

Peter W sent me a shiny new FUTR Beta frame to install a mid drive on. I really like this frame. There is not a lot of room for batteries. But it's very trim and tidy and would be just the thing for short blasts around your favorite park or track. The fit and finish on the frame is excellent. Vector clearly means to distinguish itself from all of the other companies who have been "inspired" by their classic triangular frame.

I did a trial fit of my new single stage drive onto the frame and was stunned to find that it fit precisely, as if I had designed the drive to fit this frame. The bottom bracket is a standard BSA thread in a 68mm width. I had a customer drive sitting around that I had not shipped yet. It dropped right onto the frame and was installed pretty much instantly.

Image

The mounting brackets have an upper hanger that lines up perfectly with the bottom of the battery box. This bolted attachment basically makes the drive part of the frame and eliminates any possible torque flex.

Image

The bottom bracket cups are just finger tight here because I was just checking the fit of the brackets. Everything fit perfectly.

Image

I can offer this same drive with 3000 watt, 4500 watt and 6000 watt motors. Power can be run through derailleur gears or a single speed on the right side. The one caveat about this design is that you can not pedal with the motor. The gearing is optimized for the motor, not for puny humans. Any time you gear your bike for your pedaling rpm you are compromising what the motor and the bike is capable of.
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ScooterMan101   1 MW

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Re: FUTR Beta with Lightning Rods Mid Drive

Post by ScooterMan101 » Jul 04 2017 2:02pm

Mike, How soon can the motor Mfg. get you/us this motor with a lower KV ?

( at least on the 3,000 watt ones )

For me the only reason to get a mid-drive is to go up steep mountains, so using the Bicycles Rear Cassette is a Must have feature.




quote="LightningRods"]

The one caveat about this design is that you can not pedal with the motor. The gearing is optimized for the motor, not for puny humans. Any time you gear your bike for your pedaling rpm you are compromising what the motor and the bike is capable of.

[/quote]
My first conversion ...

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 1#p1077497

It's 2018 already, lets get some real , improved e-bike / e-velomobile / e-motorcycle designs .

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Re: FUTR Beta with Lightning Rods Mid Drive

Post by LightningRods » Jul 06 2017 1:29am

You're not following me completely. This drive can run through multiple gears and do it really well. With less reduction you're running on the big sprockets instead of the small ones. More sprocket teeth engaged in the chain, less chain jumping, lower sprocket wear.

At full throttle on the 62 kv Big Block running @ 52v the chainwheel is spinning at 500 rpm. We can only pedal up to 100 rpm or so for any length of time. At low throttle you can pedal with the motor. So for cruising in 8th gear on the level you can pedal along with the motor up to maybe 17 or 18 mph. To accelerate hard, or climb a steep hill, you'll want to downshift and forget about pedaling. Running 3000 watts or more through the gears your pedaling doesn't add much anyway.

Most mid drives are adapted to bicycle gearing. So the motor rpm is reduced a bunch to get it down to 100 rpm to sync with our pedaling. Then our pedal rpm is overdriven back up to between 250 and 400 wheel rpm. The issue is that we have very limited power and very limited rpm. We're holding back a 3000 watt 3000 rpm motor's potential.

I've built a small block single stage for testing. It has an 8 speed cassette on it. I'll take it out and record the speeds in each gear. So far I've seen 27 mph in 1st gear with a 34t rear sprocket.
"I don’t mind that they stole my idea, I mind that they don’t have any of their own.”
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Re: FUTR Beta with Lightning Rods Mid Drive

Post by bchampig » Jul 06 2017 7:09am

Mike,

Your new mid drive is looking really great for my new downhill build based on a Marin Quake. I am very interested in the speeds you record with the small block version. Although I like top end speed, I still need to climb hills offroad, and my only concern is not having enough low end for the steeper climbs. I would be happy with a top speed of 30MPH as long as the low end will get me up the steeper hills.

I have a 10 speed 11-36 cassette on the new build...the XT one with the cogs supported by the separate aluminum spiders. I should be able to use the lower gear cluster as my highest gears and use spacers(or the other cogs) as unused gears as long as my derailleur clears the cogs in this arrangement.

One other thing....how quiet is the new small block mid drive? For comparison, I am used to my Cyclone 3kw, and I find it reasonably quiet.

Thanks,
Brian

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Re: FUTR Beta with Lightning Rods Mid Drive

Post by LightningRods » Jul 06 2017 10:59am

I've been running the small block around on a Specialized 29er with a 34t first gear. For the small block I'd like a lower first than the 11.36:1 we get from the 34t. I have an inexpensive Suntour 8 speed cassette with a 40t first gear. I may also change the rear wheel to a 26" which would lower the overall gearing 11%, almost another gear change lower.

There are 11 speed cassettes with a 50t low gear. That would be a fantastic setup for this drive. With a 26" rear wheel you'd have a very stout 14.2:1 low gear. Running 3000 watts or more that should get you right up the hill. The higher gears are not needed for running on the motor (they're beyond it's peak power range) but can be used for pedaling the bike if you want.

My motors don't have a planetary gear set so there is no noise from that. 219 chain is a thick, quiet chain compared to bicycle chain. My chain from motor to chainwheel is running 5x faster than the Cyclone 3000 and so makes more chain noise. My "small" motor is actually the same size and power output as the Cyclone motor. A full 1/3 of the Cyclone is gear box. My Big Block motor is twice the motor that the Cyclone is. It's the same overall width. I'll take photos and weigh them all very soon. I have a Cyclone 3000 sitting on top of the beer fridge in my shop to hold it down.

In addition to eliminating weight and complexity, the point of this new drive is to run straight reduction, making use of the large rear sprockets, rather than making a lot of drive reduction and then overdriving to the small sprockets on the rear wheel. The one and only reason to do that is to try to sync motor speed with pedaling speed. My first drives had a lot of reduction to allow users to pedal. As the power climbed from 1500 watts to 2000 to 3000 things started to break. Freewheels, sprockets and chains didn't last long. 10 gauge steel brackets bent. Just like the Cyclone 3000 it was too much reduction meeting too much resistance from an overdriven final stage. If you want to pedal with the motor keep the power down to 1500-2000 watts. If you want to run 3000 watts or more forget about pedaling. My plan with the single stage drive is to take it to 6000 watts and then to 15kw and beyond with new motors. Overdrive through bicycle chain and sprockets is not the way to do that.
"I don’t mind that they stole my idea, I mind that they don’t have any of their own.”
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Re: FUTR Beta with Lightning Rods Mid Drive

Post by LightningRods » Jul 08 2017 12:45pm

Here are the comparison photos of the Cyclone 3000 watt with my Small Block 3000 watt and Big Block 6000 watt motors. Because of it's planetary gears the Cyclone is three pounds heavier than my comparable motor and 2.25" wider. My Big Block which is twice the actual motor that the Cyclone is, weighs only 1.2 lbs more and is 1.5" narrower.

The entire point of those planetary gears is to make it possible to pedal with the motor. That only works at 48-52v where the Cyclone is actually a 2000 watt motor. Running at the 72v required to get 3000 watts spins the motor too fast to pedal with. Most users don't care because it's pretty pointless to pedal with a 3000 watt motor.

Cyclone 3000 watt _______________ L-R Small Block 3000 watt
Image

Cyclone 3000 watt _______________ L-R Big Block 6000 watt
Image

L-R Big Block 6000 watt ___________ Cyclone 3000 watt ___________ L-R Small Block 3000 watt
Image

The actual motor width of the Cyclone and Small Block. The rest of the Cyclone is planetary gear box.
Image

I initially advertised my Small Block as a 1500 watt and my Big Block as a 3000 watt. I thought it best to under promise and over deliver. Since that time aggressive big box retailers have been pushing the power claims of their motors to ridiculous levels. My "small" motor is comparable to the Cyclone in power. My big motor is twice the motor.

My complete Small Block single stage drive (without BB and chainwheels) weighs 1.5 lbs less than just the Cyclone motor by itself.
"I don’t mind that they stole my idea, I mind that they don’t have any of their own.”
-Nikola Tesla

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Re: FUTR Beta with Lightning Rods Mid Drive

Post by gman1971 » Jul 25 2017 5:02pm

I see some Cyclone 3000W bashing here...

Wow... and you're now going high RPM on your kits?... finally figured out the equation of power = torque x rpm? Glad you did, man; I bet you can also promote your stuff without bashing or comparing your expensive stuff to the inexpensive (and reliable) Cyclone kits; kits to which, BTW, I've helped a group of former customers of yours to migrate towards...

G.
LightningRods wrote:I've been running the small block around on a Specialized 29er with a 34t first gear. For the small block I'd like a lower first than the 11.36:1 we get from the 34t. I have an inexpensive Suntour 8 speed cassette with a 40t first gear. I may also change the rear wheel to a 26" which would lower the overall gearing 11%, almost another gear change lower.

There are 11 speed cassettes with a 50t low gear. That would be a fantastic setup for this drive. With a 26" rear wheel you'd have a very stout 14.2:1 low gear. Running 3000 watts or more that should get you right up the hill. The higher gears are not needed for running on the motor (they're beyond it's peak power range) but can be used for pedaling the bike if you want.

My motors don't have a planetary gear set so there is no noise from that. 219 chain is a thick, quiet chain compared to bicycle chain. My chain from motor to chainwheel is running 5x faster than the Cyclone 3000 and so makes more chain noise. My "small" motor is actually the same size and power output as the Cyclone motor. A full 1/3 of the Cyclone is gear box. My Big Block motor is twice the motor that the Cyclone is. It's the same overall width. I'll take photos and weigh them all very soon. I have a Cyclone 3000 sitting on top of the beer fridge in my shop to hold it down.

In addition to eliminating weight and complexity, the point of this new drive is to run straight reduction, making use of the large rear sprockets, rather than making a lot of drive reduction and then overdriving to the small sprockets on the rear wheel. The one and only reason to do that is to try to sync motor speed with pedaling speed. My first drives had a lot of reduction to allow users to pedal. As the power climbed from 1500 watts to 2000 to 3000 things started to break. Freewheels, sprockets and chains didn't last long. 10 gauge steel brackets bent. Just like the Cyclone 3000 it was too much reduction meeting too much resistance from an overdriven final stage. If you want to pedal with the motor keep the power down to 1500-2000 watts. If you want to run 3000 watts or more forget about pedaling. My plan with the single stage drive is to take it to 6000 watts and then to 15kw and beyond with new motors. Overdrive through bicycle chain and sprockets is not the way to do that.
I am all about high-speed, low-drag, mid-drives and gears...
A-1B trike, 6+kW, 65+mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
A-2A trike 3kW, 50mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNoqp0wl6Vo
eB-1C bike 3kW, 42mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig

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Re: FUTR Beta with Lightning Rods Mid Drive

Post by LightningRods » Jul 25 2017 5:19pm

Be careful. People will think you're a shill for one of the Walmart-style Cyclone resellers.

If you do buy Cyclone kits, buy direct from Cyclone. http://www.cyclone-tw.com Support people who make things.
"I don’t mind that they stole my idea, I mind that they don’t have any of their own.”
-Nikola Tesla

Lightning Rods Web Site http://www.lightningrodev.com
Lightning Rods Facebook Page https://www.facebook.com/pages/Lightnin ... 4531978401

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Re: FUTR Beta with Lightning Rods Mid Drive

Post by gman1971 » Jul 25 2017 5:57pm

LightningRods wrote:Be careful. People will think you're a shill for one of the Walmart-style Cyclone resellers.

If you do buy Cyclone kits, buy direct from Cyclone. http://www.cyclone-tw.com Support people who make things.
Thanks for the heads up, haven't been here in a while, and no, I certainly don't resell anything (been here two years and counting now) and I only buy my kits directly from Paco in Taiwan when there is a need; however, as of lately I haven't really had much of a need to buy anything since nothing has catastrophically broken/failed in 7k miles... very happy with all my C3000W builds.

G.
I am all about high-speed, low-drag, mid-drives and gears...
A-1B trike, 6+kW, 65+mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
A-2A trike 3kW, 50mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNoqp0wl6Vo
eB-1C bike 3kW, 42mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig

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LightningRods   10 MW

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Re: FUTR Beta with Lightning Rods Mid Drive

Post by LightningRods » Jul 26 2017 8:27pm

For people who are interested in giving up pedaling with the motor to optimize the bike's gearing for the motor, here is how it works:

Image

Eliminating one stage of motor reduction causes the chainwheel to spin too fast to pedal with. It also reduces the parasitic losses of that stage of drive, the weight of that stage, the space it consumes, the parts involved in producing it which will wear out and/or break, and the expense of those parts. Simpler, stronger, lighter, cheaper, better. In this case less really is more. You just can't keep up pedaling.

This particular customer wanted a single speed drive that had a top speed of about 3O mph and favored climbing and acceleration for off road use with the Beta. I designed a 48T sprocket that will fit the Shimano spline on a standard free hub.

Image

It bolts together into a solid block with stainless steel spacers that also have the Shimano spline in them. The number of spacers on either side of the sprocket can be varied to get the chain line where you want it.

Image

As the gap between power assist electric bicycles and full on electric motorcycles gets filled with a variety of crossover bikes, there is going to be a lot of rethinking about how all of the systems should work. One area that needs some serious rethink is the notion of over-reducing a high rpm motor and then turning around and overdriving it back up to a higher rpm again. It's really only suited to low output power assist systems.
"I don’t mind that they stole my idea, I mind that they don’t have any of their own.”
-Nikola Tesla

Lightning Rods Web Site http://www.lightningrodev.com
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Re: FUTR Beta with Lightning Rods Mid Drive

Post by StinkyGoalieGuy » Jul 27 2017 3:48pm

How much for everything shown here excluding the frame and swingarm?

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Re: FUTR Beta with Lightning Rods Mid Drive

Post by LightningRods » Jul 27 2017 4:19pm

The drive as shown is $595, $3OO less than my original two stage steel bracket drive. The stainless rear wheel sprocket is $5O and the stainless spacer set is $2O. Everything but the motor is made in the US and even that is modified here.
"I don’t mind that they stole my idea, I mind that they don’t have any of their own.”
-Nikola Tesla

Lightning Rods Web Site http://www.lightningrodev.com
Lightning Rods Facebook Page https://www.facebook.com/pages/Lightnin ... 4531978401

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Re: FUTR Beta with Lightning Rods Mid Drive

Post by gman1971 » Jul 27 2017 5:28pm

LightningRods wrote:The drive as shown is $595, $3OO less than my original two stage steel bracket drive. The stainless rear wheel sprocket is $5O and the stainless spacer set is $2O. Everything but the motor is made in the US and even that is modified here.
500 for the Small block or the BB?

G.
I am all about high-speed, low-drag, mid-drives and gears...
A-1B trike, 6+kW, 65+mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
A-2A trike 3kW, 50mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNoqp0wl6Vo
eB-1C bike 3kW, 42mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig

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Re: FUTR Beta with Lightning Rods Mid Drive

Post by LightningRods » Jul 27 2017 6:14pm

$595. The small block is 3" wide. The big block is 4" wide. This motor is 3.5" wide and splits the power difference between the two motors. It fits the width of the Beta frame perfectly. I'm selling this more powerful motor for the small block price until they are gone. The big block also fits the Beta well but is 1/2" wider than the battery box. It's $695.
"I don’t mind that they stole my idea, I mind that they don’t have any of their own.”
-Nikola Tesla

Lightning Rods Web Site http://www.lightningrodev.com
Lightning Rods Facebook Page https://www.facebook.com/pages/Lightnin ... 4531978401

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Re: FUTR Beta with Lightning Rods Mid Drive

Post by gman1971 » Jul 27 2017 9:02pm

LightningRods wrote:$595. The small block is 3" wide. The big block is 4" wide. This motor is 3.5" wide and splits the power difference between the two motors. It fits the width of the Beta frame perfectly. I'm selling this more powerful motor for the small block price until they are gone. The big block also fits the Beta well but is 1/2" wider than the battery box. It's $695.
What about a trike with a regular BB? and chainrings?... say, I would like to use the Cyclone triple chainring and use your motor and mounting solution... which probably doesn't require any hacking like the C3000W did to avoid things breaking. I am contemplating building another more powerful trike for me (and give mine to my son) and obviously your 6000W kit seems to be something I could work with and crank the power down the road. The Cyclone 7500XL seems to be a bit too big for what I am looking and perhaps yours can fit the bill?

So, have you (or will you) consider selling the motor, mounting hardware and a shaft adapter to use with a 1/8 BMX freewheel instead? I've never used #219 chains, and while I am sure it is a great chain, I was thinking regular bike parts that I could easily source from many places (and I have the tools to work with them) Also, have you considered offering a carbon gates belt option for the motor-crank reduction? (that will cut motor chain noise completely, not that it matters at speed anyway)

Thanks.

G.
I am all about high-speed, low-drag, mid-drives and gears...
A-1B trike, 6+kW, 65+mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
A-2A trike 3kW, 50mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNoqp0wl6Vo
eB-1C bike 3kW, 42mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig

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Re: FUTR Beta with Lightning Rods Mid Drive

Post by LightningRods » Jul 28 2017 8:21am

I sell parts every day. Some people want a complete, finished bike, other people just need one "can't find it" part for their DIY. Here is my online store: http://lightning-rods10.mybigcommerce.com/ The new drives aren't on the store yet because I've been too busy making them to mess with the computer. If you need help or have questions you can PM me here or email me off of the site. Thanks.
"I don’t mind that they stole my idea, I mind that they don’t have any of their own.”
-Nikola Tesla

Lightning Rods Web Site http://www.lightningrodev.com
Lightning Rods Facebook Page https://www.facebook.com/pages/Lightnin ... 4531978401

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Re: FUTR Beta with Lightning Rods Mid Drive

Post by ScooterMan101 » Jul 30 2017 1:14am

I like the look of that FUTR Beta Frame more than the big Stealth Bomber /Bomber Clone Frames.
It looks more like a bicycle, a better chance to be able to ride more trails and not be noticed that
You are on a E-Bike by the E-Bike haters .

You say it does not have much space for batteries, How much are you talking about ?

Like for a 14s pack how many cells in Parallel ? with a total watt hours of how much ?
or
For other voltages like 16s / 18s or 20 s ?
My first conversion ...

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 1#p1077497

It's 2018 already, lets get some real , improved e-bike / e-velomobile / e-motorcycle designs .

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Re: FUTR Beta with Lightning Rods Mid Drive

Post by LightningRods » Jul 30 2017 1:42am

The owner of the frame I have in the shop is buying an 18s 6p pack of 30Q cells.

If you want a bike for short, fun rides it doesn't make a lot of sense to carry 30 lbs of batteries. For as long as it runs the Beta should be more nimble and perform better than a heavier long range bike.

My answer to most of these decisions about which bike to get is that I want both! :D
"I don’t mind that they stole my idea, I mind that they don’t have any of their own.”
-Nikola Tesla

Lightning Rods Web Site http://www.lightningrodev.com
Lightning Rods Facebook Page https://www.facebook.com/pages/Lightnin ... 4531978401

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Re: FUTR Beta with Lightning Rods Mid Drive

Post by ScooterMan101 » Jul 30 2017 10:39am

Two different bikes/motors would be ideal.

Would the combination of both the left side drive and cassette on the right side would work , if there would be a way to quick dis-connect or take off the chain on the left side , depending on the ride that day ?
Meaning use the motor on the left , single cog on rear for just motor / no pedaling / higher speed riding.

Then Disconnect it for the days of riding single track / slower speed trail riding . ?

I would love to get rid of the ICE motorcycle I have and get a E-Bike with some power.

What do you think his range will be with those cells ? ( I am guessing he is going with the larger , higher watt motor ? )

LightningRods wrote:The owner of the frame I have in the shop is buying an 18s 6p pack of 30Q cells.

If you want a bike for short, fun rides it doesn't make a lot of sense to carry 30 lbs of batteries. For as long as it runs the Beta should be more nimble and perform better than a heavier long range bike.

My answer to most of these decisions about which bike to get is that I want both! :D
My first conversion ...

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 1#p1077497

It's 2018 already, lets get some real , improved e-bike / e-velomobile / e-motorcycle designs .

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LightningRods   10 MW

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Re: FUTR Beta with Lightning Rods Mid Drive

Post by LightningRods » Jul 30 2017 11:02am

The 30Q cells he's using are 3Ah so 6p should be 18Ah. He's probably going to have about a 15 mile range with that pack if he doesn't hammer it too hard. He's using a 3.5" wide "medium block" that is halfway between the small block and big block. It's good for at least 4500 watts and fits the frame better than the other two motors. It's also two pounds lighter than the big motor.

He wants single speed on the right side on this bike. Gearing is very low by pedaling standards so you can't really pedal above 5 mph or so. This is essentially a freeride bike with pedals for legal compliance. It could be set up differently but that's the way this bike will be.

With the motor in the front there are some challenges to getting power to the rear wheel on the left. I have some ideas for that.
"I don’t mind that they stole my idea, I mind that they don’t have any of their own.”
-Nikola Tesla

Lightning Rods Web Site http://www.lightningrodev.com
Lightning Rods Facebook Page https://www.facebook.com/pages/Lightnin ... 4531978401

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Re: FUTR Beta with Lightning Rods Mid Drive

Post by PRW » Jul 30 2017 11:16am

Alex can also make a 20S6P or 18S7P for this frame, but is currently on holiday. I will use one of Alex's batteries for a 2nd Beta frame (I didn't want to wait that long for this one!)

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Re: FUTR Beta with Lightning Rods Mid Drive

Post by LightningRods » Jul 30 2017 11:44am

Because of my schedule I often only have time for a 30 minute therapy ride through the hills around my house. Or I'll run down the hill with a backpack to get something from the market. The Beta would be great fun for that. Not that the Qulbix Q76 isn't...
"I don’t mind that they stole my idea, I mind that they don’t have any of their own.”
-Nikola Tesla

Lightning Rods Web Site http://www.lightningrodev.com
Lightning Rods Facebook Page https://www.facebook.com/pages/Lightnin ... 4531978401

80for20   10 W

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FUTR Beta with Lightning Rods Mid Drive

Post by 80for20 » Aug 01 2017 10:12am

Hey there PRW, I'm considering this frame but am not familiar with Alex's batteries. Is his thread the Adapto one?


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Re: FUTR Beta with Lightning Rods Mid Drive

Post by PRW » Aug 01 2017 11:59am

80for20 wrote:Hey there PRW, I'm considering this frame but am not familiar with Alex's batteries. Is his thread the Adapto one?


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Hi 80for20, yes, that's the right Allex... (2 l's!)

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Re: FUTR Beta with Lightning Rods Mid Drive

Post by Baron » Sep 27 2017 12:37am

Any pics of the final build?

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