Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by skeetab5780 » May 08 2018 7:11pm

Lol the ending of that video is sooo funny

Thanks for the hill climb video this is very important to me since there are so many hills around my area

Was the ECross geared for the same top speed with the same voltage, Compared to the sur-ron? Is the sur-ron 48v or 60v?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by johnrobholmes » May 08 2018 7:35pm

Yeah, I have an older bike. Luna is sending a replacement charger, probably an updated one if these kingpan chargers all failed like this.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by m3t » May 08 2018 8:27pm

efMX Trials Electric Freeride wrote:
May 08 2018 10:02am
DanGT86 wrote:
May 08 2018 9:17am
If there are no one-way/freewheeling devices in the drivetrain than it should just be the controller preventing it. Its curious they wouldn't have included it as a feature or option considering its a zero chain growth drive system. Seems like regen comes free with most controllers.

I agree with allex that you might not always want it on but descending 3000 feet while riding the brakes is pretty wasteful. Having adjustable slip regen seems like a nice feature and would make ICE converts more comfortable.
LMX 161 utilises a slight "slip regen" when off throttle so this function seems to work well for them so could be useful on light bee as well..

reference :
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=57668&p=1372210#p1372210
FYI the regen is not as effective as one would hope. Its downsides of severely dragging the rear which actually would be very dangerous since you’d be forced to brake with the rear, is in many times undesirable. On and off would be nice but again the benefits are not actually as amazing as one would expect. To make it very beneficial, you’d need to drag it so hard it wouldn’t be fun. Truth be told even with a lot of regen and drag, you’d probably only squeeze an additional few miles if that. Also, you’d be wearing your chain and belt so much more that it’s not really a smart thing to do.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » May 09 2018 1:12am

m3t wrote:
May 08 2018 8:27pm
efMX Trials Electric Freeride wrote:
May 08 2018 10:02am
DanGT86 wrote:
May 08 2018 9:17am
If there are no one-way/freewheeling devices in the drivetrain than it should just be the controller preventing it. Its curious they wouldn't have included it as a feature or option considering its a zero chain growth drive system. Seems like regen comes free with most controllers.

I agree with allex that you might not always want it on but descending 3000 feet while riding the brakes is pretty wasteful. Having adjustable slip regen seems like a nice feature and would make ICE converts more comfortable.
LMX 161 utilises a slight "slip regen" when off throttle so this function seems to work well for them so could be useful on light bee as well..

reference :
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=57668&p=1372210#p1372210
FYI the regen is not as effective as one would hope. Its downsides of severely dragging the rear which actually would be very dangerous since you’d be forced to brake with the rear, is in many times undesirable. On and off would be nice but again the benefits are not actually as amazing as one would expect. To make it very beneficial, you’d need to drag it so hard it wouldn’t be fun. Truth be told even with a lot of regen and drag, you’d probably only squeeze an additional few miles if that. Also, you’d be wearing your chain and belt so much more that it’s not really a smart thing to do.
Well it was pretty darn steep in places, so might be fine for my purpose. It also may wear the chain faster, but it would save on break pads. :wink:

But, I don't need it enough to tear out the stock controller. I really like how its hermetically sealed.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Artur » May 09 2018 3:53am

skeetab5780 wrote:
May 08 2018 7:11pm
Lol the ending of that video is sooo funny

Thanks for the hill climb video this is very important to me since there are so many hills around my area

Was the ECross geared for the same top speed with the same voltage, Compared to the sur-ron? Is the sur-ron 48v or 60v?
you can read more about Vortex bike in my topic or website. Sun ron was the one with max specs.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Aebrennan » May 09 2018 5:08am

Artur wrote:
May 09 2018 3:53am
skeetab5780 wrote:
May 08 2018 7:11pm
Lol the ending of that video is sooo funny

Thanks for the hill climb video this is very important to me since there are so many hills around my area

Was the ECross geared for the same top speed with the same voltage, Compared to the sur-ron? Is the sur-ron 48v or 60v?
you can read more about Vortex bike in my topic or website. Sun ron was the one with max specs.
Great video

A 6kw bike vs a 14kw bike

A $3500 bike vs a $6500 bike

Can we see the riders swap bikes? I think that would make a funny vid seeing as the Sur-ron rider kept backing off the throttle :D

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by madin88 » May 09 2018 6:33am

m3t wrote:
May 08 2018 8:27pm
LMX 161 utilises a slight "slip regen" when off throttle so this function seems to work well for them so could be useful on light bee as well..

reference :
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=57668&p=1372210#p1372210

FYI the regen is not as effective as one would hope. Its downsides of severely dragging the rear which actually would be very dangerous since you’d be forced to brake with the rear, is in many times undesirable. On and off would be nice but again the benefits are not actually as amazing as one would expect. To make it very beneficial, you’d need to drag it so hard it wouldn’t be fun. Truth be told even with a lot of regen and drag, you’d probably only squeeze an additional few miles if that. Also, you’d be wearing your chain and belt so much more that it’s not really a smart thing to do.
I agree about the higher wear on the drivetrain and unwanted drag in some situations.
The wear probably isn't a big issue as it should not shorten the liftetime of the components much, because during regen the wear takes place in the opposite direction.
Or with other words: when riding, one side of the pulley or sprockets will wear, but during regen the wear will take place on the other side of the teeth.

The drag depends on the motor. If it is much higher as hub drive, it could be a problem.
Is the Surron hard to chove backwards :?:
Regen isn't about the miles you can gain IMO, it is for lowering wear on brake pads. Those high power bikes with bicylce braking system will eat through the pads anyway in no time so it would make a lot of sense :wink:

If you like to know more about regen on a mid motor you can check out my conversion from Hubmotor to a belt drive:

viewtopic.php?f=30&t=91144&start=50#p1377787

The drag is higher as MXUS or QSV3, but just a little bit. Regen braking works VERY WELL. It is as strong and efficient as it was with the Hub, and my setup is made up with a <3kg motor and 1:6 reduction!
Surron has almost 1:8 reduction so strength should not be an issue. I think you could easy lock the rearwheel on that bike.
Last edited by madin88 on May 09 2018 11:00am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by skeetab5780 » May 09 2018 6:52am

Aebrennan wrote:
May 09 2018 5:08am
Artur wrote:
May 09 2018 3:53am
skeetab5780 wrote:
May 08 2018 7:11pm
Lol the ending of that video is sooo funny

Thanks for the hill climb video this is very important to me since there are so many hills around my area

Was the ECross geared for the same top speed with the same voltage, Compared to the sur-ron? Is the sur-ron 48v or 60v?
you can read more about Vortex bike in my topic or website. Sun ron was the one with max specs.
Great video

A 6kw bike vs a 14kw bike

A $3500 bike vs a $6500 bike

Can we see the riders swap bikes? I think that would make a funny vid seeing as the Sur-ron rider kept backing off the throttle :D
Thats what i figured, the E-kross bike weighs more so did the rider. Its obviously more powerful. I can only read english so its all a guess from the video. The drags in the begining seemed fair but the rear tire of the E-kross is also much larger with more surface area to grab sand

But you would think for comparisons sake you would make them more equal. I’ve noticed in many vids the Sur-ron struggling on big hills, but that is understandable when its running so little stock power. But again if the E-kross is running anything over 15s voltage its no comparison imo

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Artur » May 09 2018 7:17am

Aebrennan wrote:
May 09 2018 5:08am
Artur wrote:
May 09 2018 3:53am
skeetab5780 wrote:
May 08 2018 7:11pm
Lol the ending of that video is sooo funny

Thanks for the hill climb video this is very important to me since there are so many hills around my area

Was the ECross geared for the same top speed with the same voltage, Compared to the sur-ron? Is the sur-ron 48v or 60v?
you can read more about Vortex bike in my topic or website. Sun ron was the one with max specs.
Great video

A 6kw bike vs a 14kw bike

A $3500 bike vs a $6500 bike

Can we see the riders swap bikes? I think that would make a funny vid seeing as the Sur-ron rider kept backing off the throttle :D
we use 100a kelly with 72v battery , so 7.2kw, not 14 :) The rider on sunron is lighter (on climb section) and it reaches max temp much faster due to smaller motor. I dont say they are in same leage, just want to show you what sunron can and can't. It's a good bike for it's money, but too weak for me and small too. I don't think I would be able to go on it where I go on my other bikes. it's nice for flat trails, small hills and light/short riders.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by skeetab5780 » May 09 2018 10:22am

What model controller from Kelly. They do not offer a 100a controller, unless its the KDS series

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by madin88 » May 09 2018 11:25am

skeetab5780 wrote:
May 09 2018 10:22am
What model controller from Kelly. They do not offer a 100a controller, unless its the KDS series
From another vid it looks like they using a KLS7230. This one can do 150A max which would be about 10kW.

he also says almost 10kW here https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... 2ry0Weu9ck

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » May 09 2018 2:02pm

Artur wrote:
May 09 2018 7:17am
It's a good bike for it's money, but too weak for me and small too. I don't think I would be able to go on it where I go on my other bikes. it's nice for flat trails, small hills and light/short riders.
Hogwash.

I live in the mountains and have had absolutely no problem tearing up big steep mountains on my Sur-Ron. I have some footage of it mountain climbing I might edit into a video to share. I am also 6'2" and after just adding some riser handle bars it is perfectly comfortable. From my experience it almost seems like in that video the Sur-Ron must have been on EP mode.

I have to say too, that I think the Sur-Ron looks infinitely more cool, and I suspect that it has a much higher quality frame. After the 12kw upgrade is out, I don't think there would even be a comparison.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by skeetab5780 » May 09 2018 2:03pm

KLS7230S

motor current: 80%
300A * 0,8 = 240A
battery current: 50%
240A * 0,5 = 120A battery current

120A x 72v nominal 8,640watts peak for 20sec?

motor current: 80%
120A * 0,8 = 96A phase
battery current: 50%
96A * 0,5 = 48A battery current

48A x 72v nominal 3,456watts continuous?

Does that seem right

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Uran93 » May 09 2018 2:34pm

Hi, guys. Could you help with RST fork service question?

Do I need to use air pump for this folk at all or it doesn't need anything to pump periodically?

Also could you give any recommendations of how to adjust front and rear ammo? What is the best for motocross and what for trails?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Allex » May 09 2018 2:46pm

3DTOPO wrote:
May 09 2018 2:02pm
Artur wrote:
May 09 2018 7:17am
It's a good bike for it's money, but too weak for me and small too. I don't think I would be able to go on it where I go on my other bikes. it's nice for flat trails, small hills and light/short riders.
Hogwash.

I live in the mountains and have had absolutely no problem tearing up big steep mountains on my Sur-Ron. I have some footage of it mountain climbing I might edit into a video to share. I am also 6'2" and after just adding some riser handle bars it is perfectly comfortable. From my experience it almost seems like in that video the Sur-Ron must have been on EP mode.

I have to say too, that I think the Sur-Ron looks infinitely more cool, and I suspect that it has a much higher quality frame. After the 12kw upgrade is out, I don't think there would even be a comparison.
That Vortex is indeed more powerful, keep in mind that the sur-ron in the video have the first, smaller motor.
But sur-ron is a different type of bike, its more like a pit bike with big tires and Vortex is more like a big gasser.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Antenor » May 09 2018 3:24pm

I would like to have a real competitive alternative to sur ron in europe.
Why not make a same price, same power bike and with CE homologation?
That will be a winner...

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » May 09 2018 3:27pm

Allex wrote:
May 09 2018 2:46pm
That Vortex is indeed more powerful, keep in mind that the sur-ron in the video have the first, smaller motor.
I don't doubt that its more powerful. But saying the Sur-Ron isn't even able to climb hills is nonsense.

Also since the Sur-Ron is lighter than the Vortex it helps make up for the difference in power. For my needs I am perfectly content with the amount of power the Sur-Ron has, and Luna has promised upgrades in the future; so its possible for me to grow with the bike.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » May 09 2018 3:50pm

Antenor wrote:
May 09 2018 3:24pm
I would like to have a real competitive alternative to sur ron in europe.
Why not make a same price, same power bike and with CE homologation?
That will be a winner...
I think that Kuberg is working on european street legal certification / homologation for the Freerider street version, and of course LMX.. but it is an expensive process or Sur-ron and others would have already done that.. and of course the manufacturer will pass those certification costs onto consumers so the homologated bikes will be more expensive (at least initially).. you can not get homologation for free (unless the manufacturer has very deep pockets).. have you looked into Bultaco or SEV? they are street legal in europe ..
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by johnrobholmes » May 09 2018 6:32pm

Using a nice charger, ahhhhhhhh! It’s nice getting some data on recharge amp hours and what voltage the pack is. I just yanked the connector from the semi-damaged stock charger whilst waiting for the replacement from Luna.

At 5 amps the satiator gets rather hot, so I turned it down to 4 amps. As long as it recharges overnight there ain’t no hurry. So far, recharges from 70%+ soc on the battery indicator are dead on with what the satiator puts in.
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by liveforphysics » May 09 2018 6:56pm

Sur Ron can be modded to be a slayer of most things on and off road up to 40mph, while staying the same weight. That was a delightful discovery to make, and the motor temps stay in check so well I know it's got more performance left to unlock.
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Antenor » May 09 2018 7:48pm

efMX Trials Electric Freeride wrote:
May 09 2018 3:50pm
Antenor wrote:
May 09 2018 3:24pm
I would like to have a real competitive alternative to sur ron in europe.
Why not make a same price, same power bike and with CE homologation?
That will be a winner...
I think that Kuberg is working on european street legal certification / homologation for the Freerider street version, and of course LMX.. but it is an expensive process or Sur-ron and others would have already done that.. and of course the manufacturer will pass those certification costs onto consumers so the homologated bikes will be more expensive (at least initially).. you can not get homologation for free (unless the manufacturer has very deep pockets).. have you looked into Bultaco or SEV? they are street legal in europe ..
Well, Bultaco is a hub motor that is not adequate for the kinds of hills that i have here...the feedbac that i have from SEV etricks is that is weak for hill.
LMX is a logical choice, but 7800 euros is out off what i consider spending in a electrick moto.
I think that the price range between 3500 and 4000 euros is the one that is in level with tradicional motorbikes, and even with limited range and lesser powerfull, it can make going electric a real alternative.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by thoroughbred » May 09 2018 7:51pm

I think the comparison videos are great. I know very little but enough to see that the comparison wasn't exactly apples to oranges. I can also see that in stock form it runs out of breath on a fairly typical hillclimb and that the suspenders won't exactly gobble up 2 foot swells at speed.

The bike looks really good with massive potential for upgrades. Even in stock form it looks like a ton of fun for the money and I'm surprised that it seems to come out of nowhere. Not that China is nowhere but I can't trace any sort of pedigree on this thing....I liked it the first time I saw it and joined this forum because of it

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » May 09 2018 8:01pm

Antenor wrote:
May 09 2018 7:48pm
efMX Trials Electric Freeride wrote:
May 09 2018 3:50pm
Antenor wrote:
May 09 2018 3:24pm
I would like to have a real competitive alternative to sur ron in europe.
Why not make a same price, same power bike and with CE homologation?
That will be a winner...
I think that Kuberg is working on european street legal certification / homologation for the Freerider street version, and of course LMX.. but it is an expensive process or Sur-ron and others would have already done that.. and of course the manufacturer will pass those certification costs onto consumers so the homologated bikes will be more expensive (at least initially).. you can not get homologation for free (unless the manufacturer has very deep pockets).. have you looked into Bultaco or SEV? they are street legal in europe ..
Well, Bultaco is a hub motor that is not adequate for the kinds of hills that i have here...the feedbac that i have from SEV etricks is that is weak for hill.
LMX is a logical choice, but 7800 euros is out off what i consider spending in a electrick moto.
I think that the price range between 3500 and 4000 euros is the one that is in level with tradicional motorbikes, and even with limited range and lesser powerfull, it can make going electric a real alternative.
SEV eTRICKS Evolution R01 can handle steep climbs, you could also change to a larger rear sprocket if desired / needed.. also did you consider kuberg freerider? it is pretty close in price to Sur-ron and working on street legal certification.. also look into mammoth ebike mid drive, maybe they will consider homologation for their ebike.. are you looking for an ebike for on road, off-road or both??
some ride & sk8 videos:
metacafe.com/channels/NATAS666DAMIEN
http://www.youtube.com/natas666damien
i have nothing for sale.. :)

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Antenor » May 09 2018 8:23pm

Ideally booth :) but more offroad

The main use will be offroad, but for get there i have 10/15 kms of paved roads. I would like also to use to go to work now and then (15/20 kms).

For offroad i need minimun 40 kms range, ideally 50/60km (not easy)

I would prefer by in EU, because import taxes and customs coast are high for nom-EU countrys. Also E homologation would be great.

The other viable alternative is to keep electric bicycles, because at least for now, there is not a great control on the part of the police, and it is easy to reach the characteristics mentioned above and there is no concern with the homologation.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Allex » May 10 2018 11:26am

efMX Trials Electric Freeride wrote:
May 08 2018 6:04pm
Allex wrote:
May 08 2018 5:28pm

.. the charger you show are not longer in use by sur-ron, see:
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=89902&p=1358016&hilit=xlr#p1358016

Much smaller, lighter and waterproof, all electronics are potted inside and of course quality is heeaps better.
new charger looks pretty sweet.. where is it intended to be mounted on the bike, any pics of it onboard??
I guess you need to use your imagination on where to put it =)

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