Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

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Allex   1 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Allex » May 20 2018 3:16am

Some indivuduals claim the lack of torque on the sur-ron(and the talks about overheating a sur-ron), the purpose of the video was to compare it to regular hub-builds. This is what I had on my hands. All three bikes have about same power ~6kW, just a simple test on what would happen. For me it was interesting to compare - same power, same terms. Dont see why you would be surpised about it.
As to running start, same conditions need to be applied. I previously did a drag test video against same hub-bike on flat, again on equal terms.
Also the reason of why I start at zero speed is because IF you run in this kind of terrain you have to start from zero sometimes(also impossible to find a runing start if you in in the middle of nowhere), again to show that sur-ron can handle it. If you look closely, I did cheat at 1:20 but a running start did not help, the bike stalled.

Johns comment is what it is, can't do much about it. Unless I build a clownbike with a tiny motor at the rear and big upfront, we dont have much choice out there. Have you guys seen a factory that actually build motors with a 24" big stator?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by liveforphysics » May 20 2018 3:45am

Custom 25r pack at 21s now and ASI8000 maxed as far as Farfle (Jackson) was able to get the tune stable. Thanks buddy for the epic HP at 32kW! Pure beast!

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Allex » May 20 2018 4:23am

Haha, wow, good job there. How many Ps and di you fit it inside the stock battery housing?
I would be pleasantly suprised if this little machine(rear hub, rims, drivetrain) will hold for long on these type of steroids.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by fechter » May 20 2018 9:22am

liveforphysics wrote:
May 20 2018 3:45am
Custom 25r pack at 21s now and ASI8000 maxed as far as Farfle (Jackson) was able to get the tune stable. Thanks buddy for the epic HP at 32kW! Pure beast!
Seems to have trouble keeping the front wheel on the ground :twisted:

Any idea what the top speed is?
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Uran93 » May 20 2018 10:26am

efMX Trials Electric Freeride wrote:
May 18 2018 8:26pm
Uran93 wrote:
May 18 2018 7:59pm
Guys, need you advise, please.
What kind of tool do I need to work and tuning rear shock absorber FastAce
http://www.fastace.com/pro.php?m=d&pid=79

What size of tool and what is a name?
check with your local bike or moto shop for an "adjustable spanner wrench" for turning the shock collar to adjust the coil spring preload.. if you apply some spray lube to the shock body threads you can often just rotate the coil spring by hand and the shock collar will often rotate with it so that you may not need the tool.. if that doesn't work for you try something like this :
Image
https://www.flyinmiata.com/adjustable-s ... rench.html
Thanks a lot! Will try it.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by liveforphysics » May 20 2018 10:30am

fechter wrote:
May 20 2018 9:22am
liveforphysics wrote:
May 20 2018 3:45am
Custom 25r pack at 21s now and ASI8000 maxed as far as Farfle (Jackson) was able to get the tune stable. Thanks buddy for the epic HP at 32kW! Pure beast!
Seems to have trouble keeping the front wheel on the ground :twisted:

Any idea what the top speed is?
Haven't done an instrumented top speed run yet. Im guessing 80-90mph.
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by icecreamketo » May 20 2018 12:42pm

liveforphysics wrote:
May 20 2018 10:30am
fechter wrote:
May 20 2018 9:22am
liveforphysics wrote:
May 20 2018 3:45am
Custom 25r pack at 21s now and ASI8000 maxed as far as Farfle (Jackson) was able to get the tune stable. Thanks buddy for the epic HP at 32kW! Pure beast!
Seems to have trouble keeping the front wheel on the ground :twisted:

Any idea what the top speed is?
Haven't done an instrumented top speed run yet. Im guessing 80-90mph.
That's wild! What's the gearing on it right now?

Will Luna be selling parts to replicate this or can someone out together the information to build this out?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by madin88 » May 20 2018 1:21pm

Allex wrote:
May 19 2018 1:30pm
Just to show you guys what this hill is about, I made a clip with other hub motorised bikes for comparison, maybe its easier to see how tough it is for a hub motor in this particular terrain. I was actually a bit surprised that they did not handle it...
It also shows how much effective the sur-ron is with its setup, kinda blown away how good it is :mrgreen:
If the input power was similar when riding up the hill than it was a fair comparsion.
30° is EXTREME and this comparison shows clearly which setup is more efficient in producing troque.

@ John and macribs

Yes the wheelsize is way to large and it hurts myself when looking the vid, but otherwise it would not have been an apples to apples comparison anymore. I wanna see you guys riding with scooter wheels in this terrain over rocks and other obstacles :lol:
Same thing about the start from zero speed -> it was apples to apples.

Regarding the thing with the to small controller i once was riding a bike with a similar setup in such steep area (Cromotor in large wheel with a Mini-E), and i thought if i swap the Mini-E for a Max-E the bike will go up quicker and would not ovherhat so fast, but with the more powerful controller it was only going quicker the first few steep grades, than it overheated and stalled. DD Hub motors suck in such terrain and also the handling (supension) sucks.
Try it out yourself on such steep hills if you don't trust Allex.
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by liveforphysics » May 20 2018 2:14pm

icecreamketo wrote:
May 20 2018 12:42pm
liveforphysics wrote:
May 20 2018 10:30am
fechter wrote:
May 20 2018 9:22am
liveforphysics wrote:
May 20 2018 3:45am
Custom 25r pack at 21s now and ASI8000 maxed as far as Farfle (Jackson) was able to get the tune stable. Thanks buddy for the epic HP at 32kW! Pure beast!
Seems to have trouble keeping the front wheel on the ground :twisted:

Any idea what the top speed is?
Haven't done an instrumented top speed run yet. Im guessing 80-90mph.
That's wild! What's the gearing on it right now?

Will Luna be selling parts to replicate this or can someone out together the information to build this out?
Stock gearing. With stock gearing on stock pack voltage it would just reach 70mph, so now with a good deal more battery voltage it should easily pull beyond 70mph.
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by johnrobholmes » May 20 2018 2:23pm

The difference between 45mph stock and 70mph with the asi being mostly field weakening?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by liveforphysics » May 20 2018 2:43pm

Yep.
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by johnrobholmes » May 20 2018 2:56pm

I’ll be waiting patiently for when y’all release a tuned version. Already have a spare battery on order for having one “beat on it” pack and one long life pack.

Does the asi support two operating modes? My only concern is that I won’t be able to hand my bike off for test rides once I hot rod it.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by liveforphysics » May 20 2018 3:00pm

Legitimate concern, and i don't know if it can be setup with a mode switch or not.

At its current hp/mass ratio, it would be a prolific reaper of novice rider souls. She already claimed 2 bones of experienced skilled riders.
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Each engine start sprays them into a shared atmosphere which includes beings not offered an opportunity to consent accepting these cancer experiences and defective genetics life experiences.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Allex » May 20 2018 4:28pm

liveforphysics wrote:
May 20 2018 2:43pm
Yep.
Uhm 70mph on the stock 60V battery, maybe you mean with the wheel of the ground?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by liveforphysics » May 20 2018 4:53pm

I was shocked to see the gps logs to see 70mph, as i mentioned earlier, it was on a slightly downhill straight. Field weakening is an incredible advantage in motors that play well with tons of "weakening", which seems like an absurd misnomer for something that costs no low speed performance and just adds massive top end powerband continuation beyond BEMF* Vbatt limits.

Arlin can tell you precisely, but i think the stock Nissan Leaf is at BEMF*Vbatt limits by ~40-45mph, yet the motor is optimized geometry and rotor reluctance to support 200% base speed, so stock they happily cruise at +80mph continuously on the highway.

Now that its in 21s up from 14s, i would expect 90mph or more is possible, but I've not done it yet (only have tried it in urban city areas so far). I don't think it needs that top speed outside of a dragstrip or road racing, with the 60t rear it would take better advantage of the motors powerband for everything technical off road (my riding preference).
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Hyena » May 20 2018 6:29pm

Wow that's super impressive. Hard to believe such a little motor rated at 3kw can handle peaks of 10x that. Especially when Artur claims he overheated an early version stock bike. Given the abuse I've hurled at mine with no issue I found that hard to believe. It must have had some shocking tuning or a QC defect in the motor or something.

Are you still running the belt for the primary reduction or did you switch to chain ? I already noticed some stretch in main drive chain at stock power levels, you'd want to switch in a good quality one with these sorts of mods. I assume when you said it felt like 0-60 in about 3 seconds you were talking mph and not kph ? I've got a sabvoton and bunch of lipo sitting here looking at me and there's a little Palpatine voice in my head saying "do it" :mrgreen:
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by fechter » May 20 2018 6:55pm

liveforphysics wrote:
May 20 2018 3:00pm
At its current hp/mass ratio, it would be a prolific reaper of novice rider souls. She already claimed 2 bones of experienced skilled riders.
Now you have Deathbike junior.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by liveforphysics » May 20 2018 8:47pm

Hyena wrote:
May 20 2018 6:29pm
Wow that's super impressive. Hard to believe such a little motor rated at 3kw can handle peaks of 10x that. Especially when Artur claims he overheated an early version stock bike. Given the abuse I've hurled at mine with no issue I found that hard to believe. It must have had some shocking tuning or a QC defect in the motor or something.

Are you still running the belt for the primary reduction or did you switch to chain ? I already noticed some stretch in main drive chain at stock power levels, you'd want to switch in a good quality one with these sorts of mods. I assume when you said it felt like 0-60 in about 3 seconds you were talking mph and not kph ? I've got a sabvoton and bunch of lipo sitting here looking at me and there's a little Palpatine voice in my head saying "do it" :mrgreen:

I overheated a stock motor after a few miles of being pinned through loose beach sand.

Still stock belt primary reduction and original stock chain somehow is taking it.

She needs some quality time on a dyno to find out if the motor is saturating at 32kW, but it easily feels like 20-30hp on the butt-dyno. Im 6ft 2in and 195lbs and it will try to throw me off anytime im pinned below 30-40mph.
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by macribs » May 20 2018 10:59pm

Hyena wrote:
May 20 2018 6:29pm
Wow that's super impressive. Hard to believe such a little motor rated at 3kw can handle peaks of 10x that. Especially when Artur claims he overheated an early version stock bike. Given the abuse I've hurled at mine with no issue I found that hard to believe. It must have had some shocking tuning or a QC defect in the motor or something.

Are you still running the belt for the primary reduction or did you switch to chain ? I already noticed some stretch in main drive chain at stock power levels, you'd want to switch in a good quality one with these sorts of mods. I assume when you said it felt like 0-60 in about 3 seconds you were talking mph and not kph ? I've got a sabvoton and bunch of lipo sitting here looking at me and there's a little Palpatine voice in my head saying "do it" :mrgreen:
I might be wrong here, but from memory I seem to recall Artur tests was on the v1 bike. That bike had different motor, was a stock looking Goldenmotor if memory serves me right. Seems there was big difference between those motors, the motor know used by sur ron is a better motor. Sur Ron is also starting to sell their motors to other e-bike companies so they must now be confidant that they have upped the quality.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by motomoto » May 21 2018 3:16pm

I just got home from vacation and have an ASI8000 here at the house.

I took it out of the box but don't know the first thing to do. No brain , no pain I guess.

There are some resistors at work that came from Mouser that should be the correct ones
for the bms

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Rix » May 21 2018 5:44pm

I overheated a stock motor after a few miles of being pinned through loose beach sand.

Still stock belt primary reduction and original stock chain somehow is taking it.

She needs some quality time on a dyno to find out if the motor is saturating at 32kW, but it easily feels like 20-30hp on the butt-dyno. Im 6ft 2in and 195lbs and it will try to throw me off anytime im pinned below 30-40mph.
Still very impressive that the drive train would hold up to that.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by toolman2 » May 21 2018 8:16pm

liveforphysics wrote:
May 20 2018 4:53pm
I was shocked to see the gps logs to see 70mph, as i mentioned earlier, it was on a slightly downhill straight. Field weakening is an incredible advantage in motors that play well with tons of "weakening", which seems like an absurd misnomer for something that costs no low speed performance and just adds massive top end powerband continuation beyond BEMF* Vbatt limits.

Arlin can tell you precisely, but i think the stock Nissan Leaf is at BEMF*Vbatt limits by ~40-45mph, yet the motor is optimized geometry and rotor reluctance to support 200% base speed, so stock they happily cruise at +80mph continuously on the highway.

Now that its in 21s up from 14s, i would expect 90mph or more is possible, but I've not done it yet (only have tried it in urban city areas so far). I don't think it needs that top speed outside of a dragstrip or road racing, with the 60t rear it would take better advantage of the motors powerband for everything technical off road (my riding preference).
My guess is more like 10-15kw max (output, measured at the tyre) on such a short wheelbase bike with a good sized rider up top like that from what i see on the vid. ive had bikes like that over the years and anything even near 200-260NM at the wheel is enough to mono like mad.

And if that 25r battery pack is not larger and hanging out somewhere, wouldn't 32kw be around 150w output per cell and pushing the cells to sag so badly that similar peak power level is going into battery heating as the actual output power?

Dont get me wrong though, i can see a good future in this bike and reckon they would be ideal to race together in our own class (with a fleet of them both stock aannd modded similar to this) as suggested by many organizers of the moto races ive been at pushing the electrics. -would be an epic battle (not with one very pricey machine that we race against gassers) but many of us burning around at super low cost to our wallets and the planet.

Massive respect for you luke, and its got to be an awesome thing to have you guys working together on this stuff, its just that a peak (or spiked) max battery drain level like 32kw seems either irrelevant or unlikely to be even 50% delivered to the wheel and is increasingly becoming a huge BS standard that figure is now going to be widely quoted as the sur-ron's capability, yet surely maximum consumption (and folks encouraged to widely use this as a yardstick or badge of honor) is NOT the goal as opposed to minimizing undesirable over-current levels/waste and heat for the best efficiency, output and range to make our EV's more successful.

It looked to be topping out nicely at decent speed up the hill and then back down, but that wasn't the quoted 70mph we just saw in the vid was it?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Farfle » May 21 2018 9:05pm

toolman2 wrote:
May 21 2018 8:16pm
My guess is more like 10-15kw max (output, measured at the tyre) on such a short wheelbase bike with a good sized rider up top like that from what i see on the vid. ive had bikes like that over the years and anything even near 200-260NM at the wheel is enough to mono like mad.

And if that 25r battery pack is not larger and hanging out somewhere, wouldn't 32kw be around 150w output per cell and pushing the cells to sag so badly that similar peak power level is going into battery heating as the actual output power?

Dont get me wrong though, i can see a good future in this bike and reckon they would be ideal to race together in our own class (with a fleet of them both stock aannd modded similar to this) as suggested by many organizers of the moto races ive been at pushing the electrics. -would be an epic battle (not with one very pricey machine that we race against gassers) but many of us burning around at super low cost to our wallets and the planet.

Massive respect for you luke, and its got to be an awesome thing to have you guys working together on this stuff, its just that a peak (or spiked) max battery drain level like 32kw seems either irrelevant or unlikely to be even 50% delivered to the wheel and is increasingly becoming a huge BS standard that figure is now going to be widely quoted as the sur-ron's capability, yet surely maximum consumption (and folks encouraged to widely use this as a yardstick or badge of honor) is NOT the goal as opposed to minimizing undesirable over-current levels/waste and heat for the best efficiency, output and range to make our EV's more successful.

It looked to be topping out nicely at decent speed up the hill and then back down, but that wasn't the quoted 70mph we just saw in the vid was it?
32KW is the output from the controller. And the current control loop PIDs aren't straying too far at that power level either, so we are not far enough into saturation to lose use much of it.

The BAC8000 controller we are using is set to 720 phase amps, and with the 21S 25R pack (cant remember how many P but its too big for the factory surron case, so maybe similat P count to factory)

The datalogs from the logger were showing a 1-2s peak of 475-540A at 67V under load. (From 82V full), which gives 32-35KW of output power from the controller to the motor. I bet the motor is making use of at least half of it, but we need to take it to a motorcycle dyno, as it is freaking SAVAGE to ride.
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by motomoto » May 21 2018 11:19pm

Should we start a Sur-ron hop up thread?

I don't know if the boys want to keep it all under wraps for Luna Cycles to sell or are willing to open source all this stuff. Luke
has been showing some stuff with the batteries and we know about the controller they are using, but I bet there is a lot
of technical stuff and the programming would take an expert like Jackson to figure out and is super valuable and does not
have to be given away. I guess we will see.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by liveforphysics » May 22 2018 1:26am

Jackson is going to share some controller logs. We are sagging to our 45vdc LVC cut on a fully charged 21s pack.

Here is a 3 way race from a few minutes ago with a Triumph 675 triple, my hotroded DSR, and the Sur Ron hotrod.

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