Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
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efMX Trials Electric Freeride   100 kW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » May 26 2018 8:56pm

n2mb wrote:
May 26 2018 8:47pm
Rix wrote:
May 26 2018 7:13pm
So I got Kim's (Motomoto) 52T sprocket mounted today and road tested. This was no easy feat as I could just barely bend my knee enough to put my foot on the foot peg. Anyway, I like the 52T better than the 48T and 58T I had been running. Its the perfect compromise. I still have a top speed of about 40MPH and a bit more oomph off the bottom. The front wheels is still easy to loft in the air. On that note, I will be selling my slightly used 58T for 30 bucks plus 11 for shipping if anyone in the US is interested. I really like the 52t and think its the perfect combo sprocket to run with the Bridgestone M403 front and rear and wont be going back to the 58 or 48T.
Which do you think is the best for on-road use?
depends on your desired torque, top speed and if you have steep climbs or mostly flat terrain.. probably the stock 48t, maybe even the smaller 42t that comes with the supermoto wheel set from luna..
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Rix   100 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Rix » May 26 2018 9:29pm

n2mb wrote:
May 26 2018 8:47pm
Rix wrote:
May 26 2018 7:13pm
So I got Kim's (Motomoto) 52T sprocket mounted today and road tested. This was no easy feat as I could just barely bend my knee enough to put my foot on the foot peg. Anyway, I like the 52T better than the 48T and 58T I had been running. Its the perfect compromise. I still have a top speed of about 40MPH and a bit more oomph off the bottom. The front wheels is still easy to loft in the air. On that note, I will be selling my slightly used 58T for 30 bucks plus 11 for shipping if anyone in the US is interested. I really like the 52t and think its the perfect combo sprocket to run with the Bridgestone M403 front and rear and wont be going back to the 58 or 48T.
Which do you think is the best for on-road use?
In addition to what EMX Trials (Natas) said, something I noticed with the 58T was it seemed that due to the mechanical advantage of the bigger sprocket the inductance load decrease was so much I couldn't draw max power except from launching from a dead stop. In other words, with the 58T, it launched very quickly, but then slowed on acceleration after about 15-20MPH. It would still pull up to about 35-36MPH, but slowly. With the 52T, it launches almost as quick, but pulls waayyy longer to about 30-32MPH before it starts s slowing on acceleration topping out at about 40MPH or so. Being that I don't have a CA hooked up, I don't know if this is the case for sure, but it feels that way. Being that I weigh around 245 ready to ride, I find this very impressive. As far as what is best for on road, use, the stock 48T with the 19" tires or a 42T with 17" tires will be your best bet, especially if you don't climb hills.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by fechter » May 26 2018 11:08pm

Has anybody actually measured the battery current on one of these things? I suspect the thing is running more than 3.6kW input. Way more.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by snee » May 27 2018 1:47am

i can see a good case for owning a range of drive ratios for both the super moto wheels and the offroad so you can set the bike up for a variety of conditions, maybe more important to some than others depending where you live.
but for me i got flatland one side and hills the other side so i need a few options.
one thing i noticed is the 58t drive actualy has about a 7kph higher top speed than the 48t on a flat dirt road but the range may be shorter for the 58t at those speeds than the 48t.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by motomoto » May 27 2018 2:16am

Rix:
So I got Kim's (Motomoto) 52T sprocket mounted today and road tested. This was no easy feat as I could just barely bend my knee enough to put my foot on the foot peg. Anyway, I like the 52T better than the 48T and 58T I had been running. Its the perfect compromise. I still have a top speed of about 40MPH and a bit more oomph off the bottom. The front wheels is still easy to loft in the air. On that note, I will be selling my slightly used 58T for 30 bucks plus 11 for shipping if anyone in the US is interested. I really like the 52t and think its the perfect combo sprocket to run with the Bridgestone M403 front and rear and wont be going back to the 58 or 48T.
I haven't even tried the 52

Maybe someday

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by snee » May 27 2018 2:55am

im only guessing because i haven't tried a 52t with the 19inch wheels either but given that with the 48t the bike topped out at 70kph on the flat for a good run and did maintain 77kph under the same contitions on the 58t i would say its possible the 48t is slightly geared below the peak for the motors kv and the controlers volt and amp output. what i think is the 58t is slightly above that peak.
52 might be the sweatspot for flatland runs at top speed for the stock controller.
anyone who knows for sure is welcome to bust my theory.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by madin88 » May 27 2018 4:48am

snee wrote:
May 27 2018 1:47am
one thing i noticed is the 58t drive actualy has about a 7kph higher top speed than the 48t on a flat dirt road but the range may be shorter for the 58t at those speeds than the 48t.
Could it be that you mean it the other way round?
The 48T sprocket should give higher top speed as the 58T.
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by snee » May 27 2018 5:47am

no its not the other way around, the 48t sprocket actualy has a lower top speed that the 58 by about 7kph. i have seen this for myself.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by n2mb » May 27 2018 5:59am

Interesting. Sounds like you are hitting the wind/rolling resistance limit against the motor torque limit with the stock gearing.

With the 58, probably the max voltage

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by snee » May 27 2018 6:05am

this is why i realy would like to try 52t gearing and see if it goes forward or backward...
what i think is the standard 48t has the motor and controller running just below its optimum.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by JuiceMeUp » May 27 2018 6:34am

snee wrote:
May 27 2018 5:47am
no its not the other way around, the 48t sprocket actualy has a lower top speed that the 58 by about 7kph. i have seen this for myself.
How are you measuring your speed? GPS or off the stock speedo on the bars.
I believe the controller is driving the bar mounted speedo and has no idea of gearing. It's calibrated for stock setup
Suspect what you are seeing is the motor being able to spin faster with the lower gearing producing a higher top speed reading.
I've just gone from stock gearing to the big-boy sprocket and top speed is definatly down a bit but way more fun with the extra torque off-road.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by snee » May 27 2018 7:06am

gps on my phone, but we all know that's rubbish also.

what we realy need is a propper speed gun to decide such matters.

maybe at its best or at its worst gps doing distance over time couldn't do better than +or- 7kph anyway....

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Rix » May 27 2018 10:38am

snee wrote:
May 27 2018 2:55am
im only guessing because i haven't tried a 52t with the 19inch wheels either but given that with the 48t the bike topped out at 70kph on the flat for a good run and did maintain 77kph under the same contitions on the 58t i would say its possible the 48t is slightly geared below the peak for the motors kv and the controlers volt and amp output. what i think is the 58t is slightly above that peak.
52 might be the sweatspot for flatland runs at top speed for the stock controller.
anyone who knows for sure is welcome to bust my theory.
This is what I think is going on, it feels like it anyway.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Rix » May 27 2018 10:50am

madin88 wrote:
May 27 2018 4:48am
snee wrote:
May 27 2018 1:47am
one thing i noticed is the 58t drive actualy has about a 7kph higher top speed than the 48t on a flat dirt road but the range may be shorter for the 58t at those speeds than the 48t.
Could it be that you mean it the other way round?
The 48T sprocket should give higher top speed as the 58T.
You are correct.
no its not the other way around, the 48t sprocket actualy has a lower top speed that the 58 by about 7kph. i have seen this for myself.


WHat I think Snee meant was indicated top speed increased. When I went to the 58 from the 48, my indicated top speed on the handlebar mounted speedo increased from 70Km/H to 77km/H. The speed is obviously measured at the motor and not the wheels and the mechanical advantage of the larger sprocket allowed the motor to spin faster. However, the police radar trailer confirmed my speed to be 43MPH with the 48T and 37MPH with the 58T. Yesterday, I hit 40 MPH with the 52T sprocket on the rear and I see 74/km/H on the handle bar speedo which means the indicated measured speed is not as far off with the 52T as it was with the 58T mounted.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Rix » May 27 2018 10:53am

motomoto wrote:
May 27 2018 2:16am
Rix:
So I got Kim's (Motomoto) 52T sprocket mounted today and road tested. This was no easy feat as I could just barely bend my knee enough to put my foot on the foot peg. Anyway, I like the 52T better than the 48T and 58T I had been running. Its the perfect compromise. I still have a top speed of about 40MPH and a bit more oomph off the bottom. The front wheels is still easy to loft in the air. On that note, I will be selling my slightly used 58T for 30 bucks plus 11 for shipping if anyone in the US is interested. I really like the 52t and think its the perfect combo sprocket to run with the Bridgestone M403 front and rear and wont be going back to the 58 or 48T.
I haven't even tried the 52

Maybe someday
Being that you are much lighter than I am, I suspect if you try your 52T, you definitely won't go back to a 58T.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by snee » May 27 2018 2:34pm

ok, is there a way to calibrate the speedo on the bike so its accurate?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by fechter » May 27 2018 7:54pm

A bicycle speedometer would work.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Allex » May 28 2018 6:06am

3DTOPO wrote:
May 26 2018 3:04pm
efMX Trials Electric Freeride wrote:
May 26 2018 2:40pm
USD suspension forks have more tire clearance since they don't have the fork brace at the top of the fork legs which are more limiting for wider tire use..
Thanks! I see. It looks like the coil housing starts to taper to form the brace.

If money were not a concern, what is the best fork I could put on this little monster? I looked at the Rock Shot BoXXer RC DebonAir, but I can only find them with 15mm axles. I'm not sure how wide it is either.

The Manitou Dorado Pro sound pretty nice, but I would prefer something with less flex (main reason why I choose the RST).

Suggestions very much appreciated.
Check this one out:
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/se/e ... prod124427
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by snee » May 28 2018 8:41am

my boxer world cup arrived today, it has a 20mm maxle with 6mm hex both sides and the stock wheel is a perfect fit. it came with two top crown options one standard and a higher lift crown both are direct mount compatible for the bars. also got a full set of seals and O rings plus a shock pump in the box.
if the weather is good this comming weekend ill be out to test that.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Allex » May 28 2018 11:22am

fechter wrote:
May 26 2018 11:08pm
Has anybody actually measured the battery current on one of these things? I suspect the thing is running more than 3.6kW input. Way more.
Did it today, my clamp meter says ~20A in EP and ~65A in Sport.
Can some1 comfirm this?
This gives us north of 3kW in peak.
Last edited by Allex on May 28 2018 12:12pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by madin88 » May 28 2018 12:08pm

Allex wrote:
May 28 2018 11:22am
Did it today, my clamp meter says ~20A at in EP and ~65A in Sport.
Can some1 comfirm this?
This gives us north of 3kW in peak.
Really?
Who was it who claimed that it has 6kW?
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Allex » May 28 2018 12:15pm

I guess it was just assumptions, this is actually even better because of my hill climbing test, but I still want a second measurement.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by motomoto » May 28 2018 2:16pm

The true measure of what the system puts out is the measured rear wheel hp. We put the test bike on the
Zero motorcycle dyno and this is what it measured. The production bike has 20% more torque than the test
bike according to the factory.

This is the test bike dyno reading.
dyno sur-ron.png
dyno sur-ron.png (35.58 KiB) Viewed 1140 times

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by liveforphysics » May 28 2018 4:11pm

Glad you got it in a dyno motomoto!

The big spike at the beginning of the plot is dyno rpm sensor induced artifact. (i know that dyno well)
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by maydaverave » May 28 2018 7:21pm

That is the flattest squarest Dyno run I have seen. God bless electric.
e-bikekit 50v 9.2ah cellman pack

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