Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
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Dext3r   10 mW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Dext3r » Aug 16 2018 4:39pm

Allex wrote:
Aug 16 2018 3:57pm
We will have our first EU versions end of Sept. here in Sweden.
Are you the dealer?
Does it affect the sale price?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by artisanstone » Aug 16 2018 5:14pm

Anyone have the luna skid plate yet? Any impressions?

socalsurron   1 µW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by socalsurron » Aug 16 2018 6:20pm

fechter wrote:
Aug 16 2018 3:40pm
motomoto wrote:
Aug 16 2018 11:56am
I am working on a pedal kit. It runs a generator that charges the battery.
That sounds a bit more practical but not sure if it would meet the legal requirements everywhere. Wording varies a lot on these regulations. For USA federal definition, it says "fully operable pedals". In some it just says the motor can't run unless you are pedaling. In this case, the pedals only have to interface to the controller and not really supply any power.

It is unlikely you could make it run by pedal power alone, but this seems to be unnecessary in most cases.

A pedal generator would be much more flexible in the mounting and not screw up the gearing or chain line.
For sure - I'm really interested in seeing how this idea would be executed. For me, the pedals only serve as a "looky-looky" deterrent for park rangers and local police. I keep it EP mode and obey all bike-specific laws when riding on the streets and trails, so I don't feel as if I'm being a nuisance riding it in the local canyons or around the bay on the bike paths (unlike the people ripping around on the Lime and Bird scooters). I save the hooligan stuff for east county truck trails, fire roads, and deserts.

I want to retain the bike's ability to "be" a bike, which is why I need a more solid pedal solution versus registering it for legal street use as a moped. CA is pretty flexible on some of the ebike laws in my experience, so as long as you're respecting your fellow cyclists and not doing 45 mph in the bike lane, I see no harm in sharing the same paths. I can imagine it will only take a few "incidents" of irresponsible use to see stricter enforcement of these machines, but until that point, I'm going to enjoy my cruises to the beach.

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macribs   1 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by macribs » Aug 16 2018 7:48pm

Dext3r wrote:
Aug 16 2018 4:39pm
Allex wrote:
Aug 16 2018 3:57pm
We will have our first EU versions end of Sept. here in Sweden.
Are you the dealer?
Does it affect the sale price?
AFAIK the imposed EU tax on chinese e-bikes does not affect mopeds so from where I stand I am certain prices will not be jacked up on the road legal Sur Run, as it is no longer an e-bike but a legal moped from China in which there are no added taxes at the moment.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Tommm » Aug 16 2018 8:04pm

macribs wrote:
Aug 16 2018 7:48pm
Dext3r wrote:
Aug 16 2018 4:39pm
Allex wrote:
Aug 16 2018 3:57pm
We will have our first EU versions end of Sept. here in Sweden.
Are you the dealer?
Does it affect the sale price?
AFAIK the imposed EU tax on chinese e-bikes does not affect mopeds so from where I stand I am certain prices will not be jacked up on the road legal Sur Run, as it is no longer an e-bike but a legal moped from China in which there are no added taxes at the moment.
The sur ron arrives with no papers whatsoever to the EU. Mopeds have papers. Bikes don't have papers.

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macribs   1 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by macribs » Aug 16 2018 8:47pm

Tommm wrote:
Aug 16 2018 8:04pm
macribs wrote:
Aug 16 2018 7:48pm
Dext3r wrote:
Aug 16 2018 4:39pm
Allex wrote:
Aug 16 2018 3:57pm
We will have our first EU versions end of Sept. here in Sweden.
Are you the dealer?
Does it affect the sale price?
AFAIK the imposed EU tax on chinese e-bikes does not affect mopeds so from where I stand I am certain prices will not be jacked up on the road legal Sur Run, as it is no longer an e-bike but a legal moped from China in which there are no added taxes at the moment.
The sur ron arrives with no papers whatsoever to the EU. Mopeds have papers. Bikes don't have papers.
No papers? Who are making the bikes legal, without manufacturer COC, CE etc that task of getting license plates and road legal moped registration will be much harder. Are you sure about this? As I read about the road legal EU version earlier the moped 45 km/h was a collaboration between Sur Ron and one or more of their EU dealers. So for Sur Ron to ship without any paperwork would not make the convertion any easier. Do you have a source for this information, as that could mean 86% increase in price due to the new EU taxation of Chinese e-bikes.

If Sur Ron will not back this, may i suggest for the dealers to have the bikes leave factory without being assembled, and declare it as various parts? I am sure even with dealers charging hourly rate to put the bikes together it would still be cheaper then if they are slapped with the new EU tax.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Tommm » Aug 16 2018 9:08pm

macribs wrote:
Aug 16 2018 8:47pm
No papers? Who are making the bikes legal, without manufacturer COC, CE etc that task of getting license plates and road legal moped registration will be much harder. Are you sure about this? As I read about the road legal EU version earlier the moped 45 km/h was a collaboration between Sur Ron and one or more of their EU dealers. So for Sur Ron to ship without any paperwork would not make the convertion any easier. Do you have a source for this information, as that could mean 86% increase in price due to the new EU taxation of Chinese e-bikes.

If Sur Ron will not back this, may i suggest for the dealers to have the bikes leave factory without being assembled, and declare it as various parts? I am sure even with dealers charging hourly rate to put the bikes together it would still be cheaper then if they are slapped with the new EU tax.
From what I have read, there is no collaboration between sur ron and the importers as far as making it street legal goes. There is a rear brake light and license plate holder on the "legal" marketed ones and that's it. The EU sellers just say it is equipped to be made legal where it is able to be registered as a moped by yourself.
If I'm wrong, someone will correct me.

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Offroader   10 MW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Aug 16 2018 9:48pm

Can anyone comment how well and how difficult it is to wheelie this bike?

I've heard mid-drives because of lag in the chain and drive train or something like that, make it difficult to wheelie. I am wondering how difficult it is to wheelie this bike compared to a hub motored bike.

One other question, how quickly does the motor overheat on this thing? Is it as quick as a hub motored bike when riding off road? Do you find yourself having to take breaks for the motor to cool off?

Thanks.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by racingame » Aug 17 2018 12:32am

Offroader wrote:
Aug 16 2018 9:48pm
Can anyone comment how well and how difficult it is to wheelie this bike?
Wheelies are very easy once you cut the brake sensor, so you have nothing to worry about that. Once you decide to cut the wire though you should worry more about your safety since riding becomes more dangerous if you aren't experienced enough.

I know people in here like to spread some info, so did SUR-RON have actual problems with the production of the EU homologated bikes? I ask because, just by looking around, many delears were promising to have them already in May, then postponed to end of June, then July, and again last one I saw said they will have them by end of this month, but who the hell knows at this point? :lol:
Last edited by racingame on Aug 17 2018 12:38am, edited 1 time in total.

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motomoto   1 kW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by motomoto » Aug 17 2018 12:33am

I have a lot of time wheelying a sur-ron. That is all I do with the bike these days. Sadly, I am not talented, but make up for lack of talent
with tenacity. It wheelies great, but getting used to using the rear brake with the left hand lever takes some getting used to. I like to spend my time on a downhill because it is all rear brake control on the back side of the balance point. To me that is hard. I only do slow speed wheelies because I am old and fear tearing my limbs off with a mistake at high speed and I am usually in birkenstocks and shorts and no helmet. When I go to the park on the grass I do some higher speed stuff because it's on grass.

I can only start a wheelie from a slow speed because that is where the torque gets the front up easy and not at speeds over 10 mph.

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Allex   1 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Allex » Aug 17 2018 1:16am

Offroader wrote:
Aug 16 2018 9:48pm
Can anyone comment how well and how difficult it is to wheelie this bike?

I've heard mid-drives because of lag in the chain and drive train or something like that, make it difficult to wheelie. I am wondering how difficult it is to wheelie this bike compared to a hub motored bike.

One other question, how quickly does the motor overheat on this thing? Is it as quick as a hub motored bike when riding off road? Do you find yourself having to take breaks for the motor to cool off?

Thanks.
Did you miss my comparison videos where I go up a steep hill with hubs and sur-ron? This bike completely destroys hubs in off road. With my hub and ferro I have to wait before cooling but during the whole summer I could not overheat the sur-ron. It feels so good that you can wack the throttle without thinking about stuff like temp.

For me, the bike is actually easier to control during wheelies, especially compared to adaptto. Where Adaptto feels spongy/rubbery between the throttle input and actual power delivery, controller on sur-ron delivers the power much faster and more direct. (I did not realise/think about this before I switched the bikes back and forth!)
I dont feel the delay on the drive train at all.

Will not even talk about how much better it is to play with this bike when jumping of the stairs or curbs on one wheel because of the much better weight distribution compared to a hub. I never got around jumping with a hub properly - could not get used to control all the weigh at the back. With this machine it feels so more natural, it takes off in the air like a dream in comparison.

Motomoto, thx for the sprockets and that extra one! Cant wait to test out the 52t

Joachim   1 kW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Joachim » Aug 17 2018 3:58am

EU street legal 45kmh wil go over the 4000 Euro? 5000 Euro? Who is going to buy these street legal motopeds?
Most young/people wil buy a chinees 4takt gas scooter/motoped for 1000 to 2000 Euro....I tjink more than 4000 Euro is to expensive for the most people.The market in 4k 5k electric mopeds is to small to put money in,no market in EU.


The motor and controller+battery gets a little warm after 15minutes hard riding....@this point you can feel the sur ron is less powerfull.
Stock this is not a real wheelie machine,only from stand stil you can wheelie.
For fun riding this bike is good,for real dirt track riding the bike needs a lot upgrades!

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madin88   100 MW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by madin88 » Aug 17 2018 5:13am

Allex wrote:
Aug 16 2018 3:57pm
We will have our first EU versions end of Sept. here in Sweden.
Which version exactly, and about how much will it cost?
Is it still true that SurRon X will not be shipped outside of china, and is reserved for the domestic market?
- 10kW belt drive with Neumotor 8057: viewtopic.php?f=30&t=91144&start=50#p1377787
- Fully road legal (L1E approval) e-bike based on Votec V-FR frame
/ MXUS 3T / 17" Mitas MC11 / Adaptto Max-E / 20s12p 25R
- KTM Hardtail Pedelec / eZee V2 6T / 27,5" / Kelly KBSX @ 1,5kW / Torque PAS / CA-V3 / 13s4p Sanyo GA in Shark case

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Offroader   10 MW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Aug 17 2018 5:57am

Thanks for the responses, yes I just went back and saw those videos Allex. I know exactly what you mean about the hub motors overheating so easily.

I believe hub motored bikes are finally obsolete for higher end off-road riding. I knew this day would finally come.

What I like about this bike is:
Mid-Drive (no stupid heavy hub motored rear wheel)
Footpegs
motorcycle seat
Frame
Skid-plate / bash guard
Price


What I don't like about it is:
Limited battery capacity (only 176 cells, I have 280 cells)
Regen not being activated by a switch
Low power output (only 6KW)
front tire being a motorcycle tire (heavy)

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Allex   1 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Allex » Aug 17 2018 9:33am

Our price is 46000SEK/around 4400EUR
Yes - X version is still delayed, they have problems with the sine-wave controllers on them. Regen does not always engage and fail rate of the new controllers is too high. They are trying to fix the bugs. It is a bummer because the stock ones works flawlessly, same goes for our test samples that are sine-wave.
X has GPS tracker as well, but all software is still in Chinese, so it is something they are working on as well.

Yeah, regen on the levers is not the best but it is an easy fix, just add a button and connect the wires to it instead! Just like on Stealth bikes and similar. And front tire is an easy change to a regular MTB. I love MTB tyres on my hubbies however you feel so much more confidence with moped up front that I never looked back. Also a 6kW mid has a lot more grunt compared to my 8kW hub setup. I would say it is more similar(Torque during climbs) to my old 13kW hub setup. I think we should compare our hubs to this one as how you compare a sports-car with power ful trucks, both can be fast but depending on the environment. A hub will smash sur-ron on a paved road, but will instantly lag behind it in the woods.


Our new batch of offroad bikes will have updated seats, o-ring chain and new style brakes and perhaps even front fenders.
EU bikes will have same old components that are out now, this is because all certificates are made specifically for the old hardware.
It is possible to get the new controllers, however the factory does not offer any warranty on them yet, because they are still not 100% finished.

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fechter   100 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by fechter » Aug 17 2018 9:44am

I pulled the trigger on one of these things. Still assembling the pieces. Everything looks good so far. FedEx did their best to destroy the packaging but everything inside seems to have survived.
Img_0860A.jpg
Img_0860A.jpg (126.07 KiB) Viewed 431 times
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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Offroader   10 MW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Aug 17 2018 10:46am

Allex wrote:
Aug 17 2018 9:33am
Our price is 46000SEK/around 4400EUR
Yes - X version is still delayed, they have problems with the sine-wave controllers on them. Regen does not always engage and fail rate of the new controllers is too high. They are trying to fix the bugs. It is a bummer because the stock ones works flawlessly, same goes for our test samples that are sine-wave.
X has GPS tracker as well, but all software is still in Chinese, so it is something they are working on as well.

Yeah, regen on the levers is not the best but it is an easy fix, just add a button and connect the wires to it instead! Just like on Stealth bikes and similar. And front tire is an easy change to a regular MTB. I love MTB tyres on my hubbies however you feel so much more confidence with moped up front that I never looked back. Also a 6kW mid has a lot more grunt compared to my 8kW hub setup. I would say it is more similar(Torque during climbs) to my old 13kW hub setup. I think we should compare our hubs to this one as how you compare a sports-car with power ful trucks, both can be fast but depending on the environment. A hub will smash sur-ron on a paved road, but will instantly lag behind it in the woods.


Our new batch of offroad bikes will have updated seats, o-ring chain and new style brakes and perhaps even front fenders.
EU bikes will have same old components that are out now, this is because all certificates are made specifically for the old hardware.
It is possible to get the new controllers, however the factory does not offer any warranty on them yet, because they are still not 100% finished.
Alex, at this point do you think its worth waiting for the X version? This is what I'm thinking because I already have a capable ebike it is worth waiting. I really want a controller with sine wave and also with field weakening. I don't know if the current version has field weakening, but field weakening is such an important feature. It seems they are also updating a bunch of other stuff and putting graphics on the bikes?

I guess the purchase will be for next summer at this point. I really want to try out this mid-drive as it has been a dream of mine to have a mid-drive after dealing with the horrors of the heavy hub motor and heavy rear end.



On my Q76R I run only about 8KW peak (more 7KW because I don't charge my pack to full most of the time), and that has plenty of climbing power and torque, I can climb anything really. If you say the Sur-Ron is more powerful climbing than 8KW hub and more like a 13KW, then that is some awesome climbing power.

The thing is with the front tire is I run a bicycle Duro razorback 3.00" and I have not really had a flat yet in 2 years. But those tires are heavy at 3lbs for a bicycle tire, but they are perfect for the front of an ebike and you can deal with changing a flat while on a ride. Since you can't get the duro razorbacks anymore, I guess a motorcycle front tire will be OK if its not too much heavier.

I just don't know what you would do if you get a flat with a motorcycle tire, can you drive on it with a flat? When I get a flat with my 17" 3.00" shinko 241 motorcycle tire, I just ride with it for miles with no issues, I wonder if that would be the same with the 70/100 tires the Sur-ron has.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Aug 17 2018 10:54am

fechter wrote:
Aug 17 2018 9:44am
I pulled the trigger on one of these things. Still assembling the pieces. Everything looks good so far. FedEx did their best to destroy the packaging but everything inside seems to have survived.
Nice, I was thinking about the blue color. Are you happy with the blue in person or think maybe you should have gone different?

Seems like everyone is jumping on these at this price. Maybe I'll finally see a decent ebike for the first time in NYC, yet to see any high end ones here.

I always wondered for years why china hasn't monopolized on the ebikes and put everyone else out of business. It seems like they are doing that finally. At least this will cause everyone else to
Last edited by Offroader on Aug 17 2018 11:02am, edited 1 time in total.

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Rix   100 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Rix » Aug 17 2018 11:01am

fechter wrote:
Aug 17 2018 9:44am
Everything looks good so far. FedEx did their best to destroy the packaging but everything inside seems to have survived.

Same here, my box was damaged, but none of the parts or bike were scratched or damaged, I'll take that. BTW, love the blue color.

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Rix   100 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Rix » Aug 17 2018 11:05am

Offroader wrote:
Aug 17 2018 10:46am



I just don't know what you would do if you get a flat with a motorcycle tire, can you drive on it with a flat? When I get a flat with my 17" 3.00" shinko 241 motorcycle tire, I just ride with it for miles with no issues, I wonder if that would be the same with the 70/100 tires the Sur-ron has.
I flattened both tires shortly after this pic was taken on a ride a while back, I rode (very carefully) 6 miles back to camp. To my surprise, on a couple of scratches on the rims, no flat spots. this was with the stock tires
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Suron.jpg1.jpg

Antenor   100 W

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Antenor » Aug 17 2018 11:07am

Allex, os that price for the road legal version?

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Allex   1 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Allex » Aug 17 2018 11:26am

Yes, the price is for Eu version.

While X is nice to have, it does not offer major improvements over the stock one and you can always get the new seat/o-ring chain and updated brakes for "pennies"
I would not bother about the new chain and brakes anyway as you would want to change them to something more expensive/better.
Graphics are always included, but nobody seems to bother using them!
The only nice thing about X is the new controller, thats it! and you can always upgrade it later on, so whatever you buy you will be happy in the long run.
Thing is, when these hit the markets for real, all our home made superbikes will not be worth that much even though the cost of all the parts combined are much more than the surron alone! I had trouble to dump my hub bikes, ppl chose the surron over my hubbies...the price is lower, and quality of the frame/linkage system is so much better than anything else.

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fechter   100 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by fechter » Aug 17 2018 12:07pm

Offroader wrote:
Aug 17 2018 10:54am

Nice, I was thinking about the blue color. Are you happy with the blue in person or think maybe you should have gone different?
It looks great in real life. Very deep coloring. Blue is my favorite color anyway.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by artisanstone » Aug 17 2018 12:27pm

artisanstone wrote:
Aug 16 2018 5:14pm
Anyone have the luna skid plate yet? Any impressions?
I'm going to repost. Hopefully that's not rude. The price on this seems OK. I'm not a fan of the motorguard part but I could cut it off. Just want to know if it will hold up. I destroyed stock one in the first week and have been riding carefully since then.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by E-geezer » Aug 17 2018 2:50pm

motomoto wrote:
Aug 17 2018 12:33am
I only do slow speed wheelies because I am old and fear tearing my limbs off with a mistake at high speed and I am usually in birkenstocks and shorts and no helmet.
:shock:

At least wear some shoes! lol
The older I get, the faster I was

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