Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
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Rix   100 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Rix » Aug 29 2018 3:05pm

artisanstone wrote:
Aug 29 2018 2:23pm
IMG_0800.JPG
This type of bead is referred to as "stitch welding". Its nothing more than tac welds in series. Its desired when joining metal is the goal, but keeping heat temper and reducing warpage to a minimum. Down side is, its not as strong as a flowing bead, and penetration isn't as deep :oops: no pun intended.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by artisanstone » Aug 29 2018 3:11pm

Rix wrote:
Aug 29 2018 3:05pm
artisanstone wrote:
Aug 29 2018 2:23pm
IMG_0800.JPG
This type of bead is referred to as "stitch welding". Its nothing more than tac welds in series. Its desired when joining metal is the goal, but keeping heat temper and reducing warpage to a minimum. Down side is, its not as strong as a flowing bead, and penetration isn't as deep :oops: no pun intended.
I know what you mean, they do that in body work. I think this part might have to be seen to appreciate. One of the four seams they missed the seam for half the length. As in, there is a bead, it just doesn't touch both pieces. Couple places with mig wire broken off in the weld. I don't have high hopes for the weld holding up.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by artisanstone » Aug 29 2018 3:39pm

I'll try to be more clear about this. I've done mig, tig, and stick processes. I am not a professional, just a hobbyist that spent some time trying to perfect my process. It looks to me like they assigned an employee to weld these who had no experience at all. I think said employee has probably seen pictures of the "stacked dimes" look of tig welding and was trying to replicate that.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Dext3r » Aug 29 2018 3:43pm

cloudwalker wrote:
Aug 29 2018 11:43am

Also, fun fact, I used to live in Hangzhou from 2014-2015, my former company is literally 500m away from Alibaba's headquarter, should I know about sur-ron then, I'd join them, what a lost!
I've been there 8)

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Aug 29 2018 4:13pm

Looks like the X version is using a DNM bicycle rear shock.

The current version seems to use a small pit bike / dirtbike shock.

I think the current dirt bike shock is probably better than using a DNM bicyle shock because the bicycle shock was not designed for the heavier weight of a motorcycle wheel and rim. I guess not a big deal as all this stuff is cheap anyway to replace, and not nearly as big a deal when not having a heavy hub motor in the wheel.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by BCTECH » Aug 29 2018 4:26pm

Offroader wrote:
Aug 29 2018 4:13pm
Looks like the X version is using a DNM bicycle rear shock.

The current version seems to use a small pit bike / dirtbike shock.

I think the current dirt bike shock is probably better than using a DNM bicyle shock because the bicycle shock was not designed for the heavier weight of a motorcycle wheel and rim. I guess not a big deal as all this stuff is cheap anyway to replace, and not nearly as big a deal when not having a heavy hub motor in the wheel.
also X version comes with new DNM front fork ?
the new usd-8 supposed to be lighter , not sure if better. anyone has experience with the new dnm fork?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Aebrennan » Aug 30 2018 7:16am

The bikes can come from the factory with USD forks, initially these were supplied by Fastace, but now DNM.
If the bike is fitted wit RST forks you get Fastace rear shock. If the bike is fitted with DNM fork you get DNM rear shock.
I would say the RST is a better fork, it just stands out being White. I have asked for the 27.5" RST Killah version in Black same as LMX use, but they declined. It is probably way cheaper for the factory to buy the 26" version in white by bulk.
The DNM fork is not light, it is a heavy MTB style spring fork model is USD-8S.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Rix » Aug 30 2018 10:03am

artisanstone wrote:
Aug 29 2018 3:39pm
I'll try to be more clear about this. I've done mig, tig, and stick processes. I am not a professional, just a hobbyist that spent some time trying to perfect my process. It looks to me like they assigned an employee to weld these who had no experience at all. I think said employee has probably seen pictures of the "stacked dimes" look of tig welding and was trying to replicate that.
Yah, that could be too.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by motomoto » Aug 30 2018 11:32pm

On thin sheet metal you would shoot for this:
sheet metal weld.jpg
sheet metal weld.jpg (32.67 KiB) Viewed 2082 times

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Tommm » Aug 31 2018 4:16am

motomoto wrote:
Aug 30 2018 11:32pm
On thin sheet metal you would shoot for this:

sheet metal weld.jpg
What do you think of the bash plate posted here?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Rix » Aug 31 2018 9:40am

motomoto wrote:
Aug 30 2018 11:32pm
On thin sheet metal you would shoot for this:

sheet metal weld.jpg
FLAWLESS bead there.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by johnrobholmes » Aug 31 2018 10:21am

I put the 58t rear sprocket on my bike with the stock rear wheel. Same story other people have, it has great low end but feels gutless past 15mph since there isn't enough load now. The 17" wheel with the 48t was perfect. I think between 55 and 52t would be a much better spot for the stock system.

Or I could get an ASI controller and just field weaken it back into peppyness :twisted:

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Rix » Aug 31 2018 10:26am

johnrobholmes wrote:
Aug 31 2018 10:21am
I put the 58t rear sprocket on my bike with the stock rear wheel. Same story other people have, it has great low end but feels gutless past 15mph since there isn't enough load now. The 17" wheel with the 48t was perfect. I think between 55 and 52t would be a much better spot for the stock system.

Or I could get an ASI controller and just field weaken it back into peppyness :twisted:
That's what I like most about the 55T, it launches off the line almost like the 58T, but acts like a 52T with more oomph everywhere else. I think if Motomoto was to only cut one size sprocket, a 54T or 55T would be the one size that does it all.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Aug 31 2018 10:29am

Has anyone here messed with the spring weight on the rear shock? I have not read of any mention of anyone changing the spring weight.

I know from my hub bike that changing the spring from a 450lbs to a 350lbs, or something like that made a huge difference. I didn't get anywhere near full travel with the 450, the 400 was OK better, but the 350 was overall best feel.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by artisanstone » Aug 31 2018 10:47am

I haven't seen anyone do that either, but I do think mine is a bit stiff. No preload on it either

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by motomoto » Aug 31 2018 10:50am

Tommm asked:
What do you think of the bash plate posted here?
I've done this same welding job for 15 years, welding probably 20,000 parts. Each time I try to make it better. After that many hours, a monkey could figure it out!!! I put an ad on craigslist for a welder and got this guy whose welds are better and he has an amazing work ethic. This is a picture of my welds that I put in the CL ad. I think Luna should find a good welder and make their bash plates pretty.
fb welds.jpg

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 1abv » Aug 31 2018 6:06pm

Offroader wrote:
Aug 31 2018 10:29am
Has anyone here messed with the spring weight on the rear shock? I have not read of any mention of anyone changing the spring weight.

I know from my hub bike that changing the spring from a 450lbs to a 350lbs, or something like that made a huge difference. I didn't get anywhere near full travel with the 450, the 400 was OK better, but the 350 was overall best feel.
I too played with spring weights of my Hubbie but most of that was because I couldn't get the sag correct with the spring that came on the shock. I also had to change the spring weight/ fork height on the front to match so it didn't get too pushy.... Do you have any issues setting sag?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by n2mb » Aug 31 2018 9:23pm

Rix wrote:
Aug 31 2018 10:26am
johnrobholmes wrote:
Aug 31 2018 10:21am
I put the 58t rear sprocket on my bike with the stock rear wheel. Same story other people have, it has great low end but feels gutless past 15mph since there isn't enough load now. The 17" wheel with the 48t was perfect. I think between 55 and 52t would be a much better spot for the stock system.

Or I could get an ASI controller and just field weaken it back into peppyness :twisted:
That's what I like most about the 55T, it launches off the line almost like the 58T, but acts like a 52T with more oomph everywhere else. I think if Motomoto was to only cut one size sprocket, a 54T or 55T would be the one size that does it all.
Is that with the stock or x controller?

Thoughts on how that might translate to the supermoto wheel set? Maybe a 48T?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Rix » Sep 01 2018 10:52am

n2mb wrote:
Aug 31 2018 9:23pm
[
johnrobholmes wrote:
Aug 31 2018 10:21am
I put the 58t rear sprocket on my bike with the stock rear wheel. Same story other people have, it has great low end but feels gutless past 15mph since there isn't enough load now. The 17" wheel with the 48t was perfect. I think between 55 and 52t would be a much better spot for the stock system.

Or I could get an ASI controller and just field weaken it back into peppyness :twisted:
[

That's what I like most about the 55T, it launches off the line almost like the 58T, but acts like a 52T with more oomph everywhere else. I think if Motomoto was to only cut one size sprocket, a 54T or 55T would be the one size that does it all.
Is that with the stock or x controller?

Thoughts on how that might translate to the supermoto wheel set? Maybe a 48T?
I have the stock controller. Also, I know that JR Holmes liked the SUMO wheels with the 48T. Maybe the equivelent of running a 52-55T with the 19" wheels.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by urbanmoto » Sep 01 2018 11:02am

Aebrennan wrote:
Aug 30 2018 7:16am
The bikes can come from the factory with USD forks, initially these were supplied by Fastace, but now DNM.
If the bike is fitted wit RST forks you get Fastace rear shock. If the bike is fitted with DNM fork you get DNM rear shock.
I would say the RST is a better fork, it just stands out being White. I have asked for the 27.5" RST Killah version in Black same as LMX use, but they declined. It is probably way cheaper for the factory to buy the 26" version in white by bulk.
The DNM fork is not light, it is a heavy MTB style spring fork model is USD-8S.
We imported over 500 units Bultaco Brinco in last three years with dnm front fork I just spent two weeks testing the Brinco against a RST fork sine wave surron , we had only two warranty failures with dnm fork on Bultaco and on tricky downhill decents it’s the only area where the Bultaco is better than the surron , every other area except brakes the surron is simply unbeatable, last test was a 40 km 1000 m climb flat out , will post some data shortly, but our next batch of U.K. surron will have dnm forks after testing back to back the ride quality and warranty history seems unbeatable

https://instagram.com/p/Bmvxj2nBVrX/
https://instagram.com/p/BnEYtbPhzPg/
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by artisanstone » Sep 01 2018 1:50pm

artisanstone wrote:
Aug 29 2018 2:23pm
IMG_0800.JPG
Well I destroyed it in one day. Welds held but mounting tabs bent. Bash plate is touching motor again.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by artisanstone » Sep 01 2018 2:52pm

Actually, one log crossing wiped it out. I don't think I was abusing it. I will probably try to bend it into some kind of shape and take it somewhere local to be reinforced.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Rix » Sep 01 2018 6:17pm

artisanstone wrote:
Sep 01 2018 1:50pm
artisanstone wrote:
Aug 29 2018 2:23pm
IMG_0800.JPG
Well I destroyed it in one day. Welds held but mounting tabs bent. Bash plate is touching motor again.
Got a pic?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Sep 01 2018 9:03pm

From my experience with using a DNM fork is that it works well but because it is an upside down fork / inverted fork and lacks that cross brace, you can easily feel the play in the wheel when riding and also when riding fast on the street. It is a bit wobbly.

When I put back on my Marzocchi 888 normal fork with the cross brace, I noticed instantly the fork was much more stable and I never looked back at the DNM fork.

Luna has a you tube video of talking about this exact issue and decided to go with the RST forks for the Sur Ron mainly because of the cross brace. I also came to this same conclusion with my bike.

I am going to think you are better off with the RST fork and the FastAce rear shock. The DNM rear shock is a downhill shock and most likely has not been modified to deal with the heavier motorcycle wheel. The DNM rear shock is built for light weight bicycle tires and rims. I'm also not sure how bike weight plays into this as the FastAce is built for a heavier motorcycle weight, while the DNM shock is built for a 20lbs bicycle.

The rear sur ron wheel is not that heavy, nothing compared to a hub motor rear wheel, so I am not sure if there will be much difference. But you are safer to just go with the fastace shock as that was designed for heavier motorcycle wheels.

If you guys are not pushing the bike to its limits, and just cruising on the street or some bike paths, then it really doesn't matter at all what you use.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by urbanmoto » Sep 02 2018 4:13am

Offroader wrote:
Sep 01 2018 9:03pm
From my experience with using a DNM fork is that it works well but because it is an upside down fork / inverted fork and lacks that cross brace, you can easily feel the play in the wheel when riding and also when riding fast on the street. It is a bit wobbly.

When I put back on my Marzocchi 888 normal fork with the cross brace, I noticed instantly the fork was much more stable and I never looked back at the DNM fork.

Luna has a you tube video of talking about this exact issue and decided to go with the RST forks for the Sur Ron mainly because of the cross brace. I also came to this same conclusion with my bike.

I am going to think you are better off with the RST fork and the FastAce rear shock. The DNM rear shock is a downhill shock and most likely has not been modified to deal with the heavier motorcycle wheel. The DNM rear shock is built for light weight bicycle tires and rims. I'm also not sure how bike weight plays into this as the FastAce is built for a heavier motorcycle weight, while the DNM shock is built for a 20lbs bicycle.

The rear sur ron wheel is not that heavy, nothing compared to a hub motor rear wheel, so I am not sure if there will be much difference. But you are safer to just go with the fastace shock as that was designed for heavier motorcycle wheels.

If you guys are not pushing the bike to its limits, and just cruising on the street or some bike paths, then it really doesn't matter at all what you use.
The Bultaco Brinco weight is 40kg and also uses dnm rear shock and it’s a heavy rear hub motor , when the dnm units land we will test side by side, but I agree for general use both are ok , but we want the surron to excel in enduro situation
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