Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

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Rix   100 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Rix » Oct 09 2018 9:57am

litespeed wrote:
Oct 08 2018 9:54pm
Rix wrote:
Oct 08 2018 9:37pm
Selling my green SurRon. viewtopic.php?f=9&t=96733

Now that I own an Alta EXR, I don't ride the SurRon anymore.
Excellent! When is the ride report coming?

Tom
I don't want to thread jack the SurRon thread here. But yah, I need to write up a review. Maybe I will start a separate thread on for the Alta.

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Rix   100 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Rix » Oct 09 2018 9:58am

fechter wrote:
Oct 09 2018 7:46am
Rix wrote:
Oct 08 2018 9:37pm
Now that I own an Alta EXR, I don't ride the SurRon anymore.
Nice looking bike! Amazingly similar to the Sur-ron, only scaled up.
It really is a scaled up SurRon, or should I say the SurRon is scaled down being that these guys have been around since 2010, but didn't start selling until 2015.
Last edited by Rix on Oct 12 2018 4:05pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by fechter » Oct 09 2018 12:40pm

300V battery. Don't touch that baby!

Start a new topic for it.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by KeithT » Oct 09 2018 1:02pm

I rode 2 weekends ago on super tight and hilly stuff that I couldn't climb with my SurRon.
I've been riding off road on my 2016 Zero FX for 2 1/2 years now, on extremely difficult West Virginia trails. I really like it but the suspension is not as good as the Alta or KTM. But the power is plenty for anything out there. However, I am getting old and picking up the 289 pound FX on a hill is getting harder and it is a rare off road ride that I don't do that at least once and five times is not unusual. So seeing the quite capable SurRon at 110 pounds got me very interested. However I am a little surprised that you can't climb hills on it while the heavier Alta can. Not enough torque? Speed? Suspension? What is the limitation?

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Rix   100 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Rix » Oct 09 2018 1:50pm

fechter wrote:
Oct 09 2018 12:40pm
300V battery. Don't touch that baby!

Start a new topic for it.
Yah, 350 volts, not messing with it. Will start a new topic and post the link tonight or tomorrow.

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Rix   100 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Rix » Oct 09 2018 2:09pm

KeithT wrote:
Oct 09 2018 1:02pm
I rode 2 weekends ago on super tight and hilly stuff that I couldn't climb with my SurRon.
I've been riding off road on my 2016 Zero FX for 2 1/2 years now, on extremely difficult West Virginia trails. I really like it but the suspension is not as good as the Alta or KTM. But the power is plenty for anything out there. However, I am getting old and picking up the 289 pound FX on a hill is getting harder and it is a rare off road ride that I don't do that at least once and five times is not unusual. So seeing the quite capable SurRon at 110 pounds got me very interested. However I am a little surprised that you can't climb hills on it while the heavier Alta can. Not enough torque? Speed? Suspension? What is the limitation?
Your Zero FX puts down around 20kw of power, or 34KW depending on which battery you get. The Altas with the R Spec battery are bursting 40KW or so. The SurRon is bursting 6KW. The stuff I ride is so steep that it takes speed and momentum to clear. With the Alta, I have enough power to get to 40 MPH or more and the bike doesn't bog down wheel spin wise even though my speed is decreasing. With the 55T and 58T sprockets on the rear, the SurRon does develop enough power that the rear wheel will spin and hop when traction is not good, but the momentum is non existent due lack of speed on the approach. Lets say I am taking off with very little run on a hill climb that 50+degrees of angle. The SurRon will go up a little way and start hoping and spinning. On the same hill same circumstances, the Alta launches very hard and very fast and makes short work of the hill. Several pages back, I posted a picture of a hill climb with lines indicating where the SurRon stopped based on rear sprocket gearing with the 48T, 52T, 55T, and the 58T. On that same hill, taking off at the bottom with no run the Alta flies over it so fast I got put the breaks on at the top so I can turn before hitting the barbed wire fencing. Anyway the SurRon is a great trail bike, but for climbing mountains, its power that gets you up there on the steep stuff. The SurRon will not do what your Zero and my Alta do in stock trim. The SurRon that Luke built up.....well, now thats a different story.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Oct 09 2018 2:14pm

The issue is the Sur-Ron controller and battery are limiting the bikes power to a wimpy 6KW. Once after market controllers come out for the Sur-Ron you can easily increase the Sur-ron up to 20KW or more of power, and the bikes will be much more equivalent. Then Rix will wish he never sold his Sur-Ron.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by KeithT » Oct 09 2018 2:38pm

Thanks Rix, that is helpful. I learned to ride off road in the CA high desert, so I think I know about the hills you describe. In the eastern coal country, it is rare to see 25mph on the trail. So speed is rarely a factor in getting up a hill, it is mostly traction and line choice. I'm sure more power would help, but the weight reduction must also give an advantage. Only one way to find out...

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Rix » Oct 09 2018 2:49pm

Offroader wrote:
Oct 09 2018 2:14pm
The issue is the Sur-Ron controller and battery are limiting the bikes power to a wimpy 6KW. Once after market controllers come out for the Sur-Ron you can easily increase the Sur-ron up to 20KW or more of power, and the bikes will be much more equivalent. Then Rix will wish he never sold his Sur-Ron.
Could be the case, but that said, my SurRon already sold.

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Rix   100 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Rix » Oct 09 2018 2:49pm

KeithT wrote:
Oct 09 2018 2:38pm
Thanks Rix, that is helpful. I learned to ride off road in the CA high desert, so I think I know about the hills you describe. In the eastern coal country, it is rare to see 25mph on the trail. So speed is rarely a factor in getting up a hill, it is mostly traction and line choice. I'm sure more power would help, but the weight reduction must also give an advantage. Only one way to find out...
Indeed. I am curious to hear your findings.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Oct 09 2018 4:41pm

KeithT wrote:
Oct 09 2018 2:38pm
Thanks Rix, that is helpful. I learned to ride off road in the CA high desert, so I think I know about the hills you describe. In the eastern coal country, it is rare to see 25mph on the trail. So speed is rarely a factor in getting up a hill, it is mostly traction and line choice. I'm sure more power would help, but the weight reduction must also give an advantage. Only one way to find out...
I am kind of in the same boat - the Sur-Ron is pretty close to a perfect match for the terrain I have to ride out of my backyard. It can climb anything I throw at it, and rarely get it over 30MPH and then only for short bursts.

I love the fact the Sur-Ron weighs 110 pounds. I would be way more likely to break an ankle on the Alta, plus I can carry the bike over an obstacle if needed. Not happening with a 300 pound bike!
Offroader wrote:
Oct 09 2018 2:14pm
The issue is the Sur-Ron controller and battery are limiting the bikes power to a wimpy 6KW. Once after market controllers come out for the Sur-Ron you can easily increase the Sur-ron up to 20KW or more of power, and the bikes will be much more equivalent. Then Rix will wish he never sold his Sur-Ron.
Even then I don’t think the bikes are in the same league. The Alta has a 6kw/h battery while the Sur-Ron a 2kw/h. At 20KW, I bet the Sur-Ron would go to reserve power in like 8 miles. Probably even more like 4 miles since most the time the stock Sur-Ron runs at 3KW.

Plus 20KW is 26HP, while the Alta puts out a claimed 50HP.

Then there are obvious differences in build quality. Don’t get me wrong - for the money the Sur-Ron is a super value, but the Alta looks way more bomber. The Sur-Ron is a toy (my favorite toy!) but the Alta is a professional racing bike - and it shows. Apples and oranges really.

Sounds like for Rix's terrain - he'll never look back.

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Rix   100 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Rix » Oct 09 2018 6:38pm

Sounds like for Rix's terrain - he'll never look back.
True, that said though, next year when I come to Boise, doesn't mean we can't get together for a ride.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Oct 10 2018 1:31am

Rix wrote:
Oct 09 2018 6:38pm
Sounds like for Rix's terrain - he'll never look back.
True, that said though, next year when I come to Boise, doesn't mean we can't get together for a ride.
That would be awesome; looking forward to it!

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by macribs » Oct 10 2018 7:41am

Rix wrote:
Oct 09 2018 1:50pm
Will start a new topic and post the link tonight or tomorrow.
Congrats on your new race bike. I was gonna say new toy, then I figured heck no, Alta ain't a toy :D
Been eyeballing the Alta bikes for long time, curious to hear what they are like. Like that you can get plates too on those now. Imagine what those bikes will do en 3-5 years with even more dense batteries. Mx tracks can be anywhere, same with motard raceways. No need to travel for hours to get to the closest track.

Make sure to post a link here so we don't miss your new thread.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by JonoP » Oct 10 2018 6:18pm

The Alta is an awesome bike and i wish we could get them in Australia. Look forward to a thread where you can share some real world experience with running the bike.
BBSHD / 750wh 40a Battery / Giant Glory DH0

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Rix   100 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Rix » Oct 10 2018 11:01pm

Hey guys, here is a link to my Alta EXR review. Enjoy. viewtopic.php?f=10&t=96775&p=1417835#p1417835

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Dext3r » Oct 11 2018 11:02am


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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Allex » Oct 15 2018 1:58am

Here is one with 22s10p samsung 25r battery, adaptto max-e and 60t sprocket.
Speed is around 100 and power around 15kW

Attachments
sruuadpt.jpg
Image-1.jpg
Last edited by Allex on Oct 15 2018 4:02am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Oct 15 2018 2:03am

Allex wrote:
Oct 15 2018 1:58am
Here is one with 22s10p samsung 25r battery, adaptto max-e and 60t sprocket.
Speed is around 115 and power around 15kW
Badass! :twisted:

How does your range compare to the stock range? How do you have regen configured?

What was your cost for the battery pack and adaptto max-e?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Oct 15 2018 10:57am

So I'm confused with this, the Max-E does work unmodified with the Sur-Ron? I thought the max-e doesn't work well with mid-drives. Why has no one else here used the Max-E with the Sur-Ron?

Allex if you can find out more about how the motor handles the 14KW and overheating with the Max-E. It would be interesting to see if it overheats easily as a hub motor would overheat very quickly with that kind of power.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by macribs » Oct 15 2018 12:54pm

The adaptto can handle E-rpm up to 70 000. So if you got the specs of the motor you can check max rpm at given voltage. If you are within the max erpm I guess adaptto can work with mid drive. But iirc very low inductance might also have been a problem for adaptto. Tbh if your choice is to buy a brand new adaptto controller for a sur ron mod I think there are more then a few controllers you should check before considering adaptto. AFAIK support and replacement/repair is not possible anymore, or at least very time consuming and expensive. Was some talk a while back that there was still one or two of the original adaptto crew that was working on development of a new product line, maybe they can help?

You might wanna look into one of these? Mobipus, ASI 8000, the new and coming Nuclear 24f from vasili to mention a few.
Last edited by macribs on Oct 15 2018 4:04pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by n2mb » Oct 15 2018 1:02pm

If you want to try going for more power on the cheap:
http://powervelocity.com/index.php?id_p ... er=product

Looks like a max of 50k eRPM.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by aspencreek » Oct 15 2018 1:59pm

What do you guys think about picking up one of these from Luna now versus waiting until spring? Not a whole lot of riding time left here in Boise, Idaho area, but I'd hate to see the price go up again in the spring. Of course, maybe by then they'll have the version with the X controller. That seems like the better option, but if they bump the price up a bunch not sure if it's worth it or not. thanks

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by skeetab5780 » Oct 15 2018 2:14pm

aspencreek wrote:
Oct 15 2018 1:59pm
What do you guys think about picking up one of these from Luna now versus waiting until spring? Not a whole lot of riding time left here in Boise, Idaho area, but I'd hate to see the price go up again in the spring. Of course, maybe by then they'll have the version with the X controller. That seems like the better option, but if they bump the price up a bunch not sure if it's worth it or not. thanks
They could raise the price another $500 by then

The price went up $500 just a few weeks ago as it is, Not that it is not a great deal...but we know they can sell them for $2k

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Oct 15 2018 2:39pm

I think the risk right now is if more tariffs get put on china. At 25% its hard to believe they would add even more as that is very high already.

There is also the chance that they remove the tariffs and come to a trade agreement, this I think is more likely than increasing the tariffs above 25%.

If this is the case and they remove the tariffs, the bike would come back down in price on future shipments. Unlikely they are going to raise the price higher than it is as they just raised it and Luna has an agreement with china as the only distributor in USA so I doubt they can just raise the prices as high as they want.

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