Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

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Offroader   10 MW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Oct 22 2018 10:34am

One of the issues with selling electric dirt bikes is that there is such hate for them from the gasoline crowd. Many of these guys are from the middle of the country in places like Louisiana and they just don't want anything to do with them. Not only that they actually show a lot of hate for anything not gas powered.

The same deal probably happened whit the first gas powered cars, people on horses just didn't like them, I believe I read or heard about that, now its happening with electric, the gas powered crowd just doesn't like it and they don't want to change.

I know because I saw it all happen on the biggest dirt bike forums when electric dirt bikes are brought up. If i remember correctly they didn't want anyone to post about them and then complained when a sub forum opened up for them. It was ridiculous. These guys just don't like electric and many seem to lack the intelligence to understand the benefits or even try to understand the benefits if you know what I mean.

This forum is much different as it attracts the more tech savvy people who can see the benefits.

I may be wrong here of course but just what I discovered when I was over on those forums for a short time. You should see how difficult it was for electric bicycles to even get a place on mtbr.com, most wanted them completely banned from the forum, just like on the dirt bike forum, now its becoming more and more popular and accepted.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by aspencreek » Oct 22 2018 12:09pm

I think the biggest problem so far, more than hate, is that electric dirt bikes simply can't yet replace gas dirt bikes for the vast majority of riders due to range (primarily) and high comparative cost (secondarily). I've seen lots of interest from guys on moto forums in the KTM Freeride Electric and the Alta and electric trials bikes etc, but then you dig into the details of the bikes and see that they can run for maybe an hour or two at most or do something like 20-30 miles. Many guys on gas bikes will do rides that go up to 100 miles or better in a day. I don't like to go that far, but 40 to 60 isn't uncommon. So if you've got an electric dirt bike you wouldn't be able to do most rides with your friends unless they don't mind doing short loops only. There also isn't a good solution that I've seen yet for extending range. With gas bikes you can always pack along some extra fuel, stash some along the trail somewhere, or even mooch a bit off a fellow rider if you run out. But how do you do that on an electric? Might be able to pack a second battery, although the weight and cost is extremely high. Can't mooch some juice off anyone. So if you run out miles away you are basically hosed since there's no quick fill-up option.

All that being said, electric dirt bikes have tons going for them that I think would especially appeal to more entry-level riders like kids, wives, new-comers, etc. What I think would be the tipping point would be someone like Honda or Yamaha making an e-version of their basic mellow trail dirt bikes with enough range for a few hours riding or more. Being able to get into the sport without having to worry about things like: clutching, shifting gears, stalling, tipping over and flooding bikes, changing oils and other fluids, maintaining air filters, clogging spark plugs, brake controls in unfamiliar place (foot pedal), jetting carbs for different altitudes, not to mention the noise and smoke, etc, etc. I see the Sur Ron as a good version of this kind of bike, but just imagine if for the same price as their gas trail bikes you could buy comparable ebikes for the family from the major manufacturers at every dealership nationwide? I know for a fact that I'd be able to get my family riding more on the far simpler, quieter, and easy to ride option like that.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Oct 22 2018 4:52pm

pipeking wrote:
Oct 22 2018 6:12am
A belt drive would be great for the su-mo version, but unless I'm missing something, dirt bikes don't use belt drive for a reason.

For that same reason, you can get a chain kit for the primary...
Well as you point out the primary is a belt drive and I have had absolutely no problems with it and all I ride is off-road.

As to why dirt bikes have chains, I suppose it's for a number of reasons. Chains can handle mud much better and can be a couple percent more efficient than belt-drives. One of the primary benefits of going with belt drive is it is much quieter, but I am sure that isn't a concern on IC bikes since you can't hear the chain over the engine.
aspencreek wrote:
Oct 22 2018 12:09pm
I think the biggest problem so far, more than hate, is that electric dirt bikes simply can't yet replace gas dirt bikes for the vast majority of riders due to range (primarily) and high comparative cost (secondarily).
I think you hit the nail on the head!

Also, if Alta really is $30M in the hole, that would be a very daunting hole to climb out of. If we assumed a 50% profit margin (which I think is overly optimistic at least without mass production), that means they would have to sell 4800 bikes before earning a penny (and that doesn’t take into account interest accumulating on the massive debt). For a niche market, that is not going to be easy. In the meantime, they have to keep paying their employees, rent, debt, and interest on time.

With a Husqvarna FE450 Dual-Sport costing thousands less, with practically unlimited range, that is going to be a tough cookie to crack.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by motomoto » Oct 23 2018 10:49am

Offroader wrote:
One of the issues with selling electric dirt bikes is that there is such hate for them from the gasoline crowd.
Everyone who has rode my Sur-ron comes back with a big smile on their face and says something like "that's awesome"

There will always be haters to things changing, but fun is fun, and the Sur-ron has a big 'fun for the buck' factor, plus
all the user friendly features like not dealing with gasoline, fumes, starting issues, clutches, etc.

If the person wants exciting HP for fun, then the Sur-ron doesn't deliver, but could if tweaked.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by fechter » Oct 23 2018 12:43pm

While the Sur-Ron may not really compete with gas motorcycles, it does blow away most electric bicycles. Before the Sur-Ron, if you wanted something that could go 40mph and have 30 miles range, you were talking some big bucks and most of the offerings were pretty lame compared to the Sur-Ron.

I ride mostly on the street and easily keeps up with traffic on roads with 35mph or less speed limits. I added brake lights, turn signals, mirrors and mounted some street-friendly tires to make it quite capable in traffic. If I had a commute that was under 10 miles, I could imagine commuting with one. And the off-road suspension is not wasted on the streets around here. Now I only have to worry about the really big pot holes.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Rix » Oct 23 2018 12:48pm

motomoto wrote:
Oct 23 2018 10:49am
Offroader wrote:
One of the issues with selling electric dirt bikes is that there is such hate for them from the gasoline crowd.
Everyone who has rode my Sur-ron comes back with a big smile on their face and says something like "that's awesome"

There will always be haters to things changing, but fun is fun, and the Sur-ron has a big 'fun for the buck' factor, plus
all the user friendly features like not dealing with gasoline, fumes, starting issues, clutches, etc.

If the person wants exciting HP for fun, then the Sur-ron doesn't deliver, but could if tweaked.
The SurRon is a gateway drug, after owning mine for 5 months, I went out and bought an Alta Redshift EXR because I liked E motorcycles so much. I probably wouldn't have gotten the EXR if it wasn't for the SurRon. To add to that, I would have never bought the SurRon if it wasn't for owning Stealth Ebikes, the gateway drug to SurRon.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Tommm » Oct 23 2018 1:03pm

fechter wrote:
Oct 23 2018 12:43pm
I ride mostly on the street and easily keeps up with traffic on roads with 35mph or less speed limits. I added brake lights, turn signals, mirrors and mounted some street-friendly tires to make it quite capable in traffic. If I had a commute that was under 10 miles, I could imagine commuting with one. And the off-road suspension is not wasted on the streets around here. Now I only have to worry about the really big pot holes.
What turn signals did you get? I can only find 12v ones.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by fechter » Oct 23 2018 2:01pm

Tommm wrote:
Oct 23 2018 1:03pm

What turn signals did you get? I can only find 12v ones.
See page 2 on this thread
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=96292&start=25

The stock lights on the Sur-Ron are 12v. There is a 12v dc-dc converter that powers them. The thing to watch out for is the brake lever switches can't handle more than about 100mA. My brake light takes 80mA and I have not had any problems. Somebody tried a brighter one and it caused the switch contacts to stick (luckily not permanently). I posted a booster circuit that would eliminate that problem.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by SilverTT » Oct 23 2018 2:19pm

Rix wrote:
Oct 23 2018 12:48pm
The SurRon is a gateway drug, after owning mine for 5 months, I went out and bought an Alta Redshift EXR because I liked E motorcycles so much. I probably wouldn't have gotten the EXR if it wasn't for the SurRon. To add to that, I would have never bought the SurRon if it wasn't for owning Stealth Ebikes, the gateway drug to SurRon.
Hey Rix - Apologies if you posted this already as I didn't read through all 95 pages but I am interested in your thoughts of the Stealth vs. the Sur Ron. I have also thought of buying the Alta EXR and went to look at them recently too but it is too heavy for my needs. I also have a Husqvarna TE 449 so that is my heavy / fast bike. Thinking the Stealth Fighter or Sur Ron can be my light weight / throw in back of truck for some fun bike or just bumming around town jumping off stuff.

So how would you compare the Sur Ron to the Stealth and did/do you have a Fighter or Bomber?

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Rix   100 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Rix » Oct 23 2018 6:02pm

SilverTT wrote:
Oct 23 2018 2:19pm
Rix wrote:
Oct 23 2018 12:48pm
The SurRon is a gateway drug, after owning mine for 5 months, I went out and bought an Alta Redshift EXR because I liked E motorcycles so much. I probably wouldn't have gotten the EXR if it wasn't for the SurRon. To add to that, I would have never bought the SurRon if it wasn't for owning Stealth Ebikes, the gateway drug to SurRon.
Hey Rix - Apologies if you posted this already as I didn't read through all 95 pages but I am interested in your thoughts of the Stealth vs. the Sur Ron. I have also thought of buying the Alta EXR and went to look at them recently too but it is too heavy for my needs. I also have a Husqvarna TE 449 so that is my heavy / fast bike. Thinking the Stealth Fighter or Sur Ron can be my light weight / throw in back of truck for some fun bike or just bumming around town jumping off stuff.

So how would you compare the Sur Ron to the Stealth and did/do you have a Fighter or Bomber?
I will PM you so we don't thread jack here. But the one thing that is unequivocally a fact is, there is no better ebike on the market than the SurRon, bang for the buck wise.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by macribs » Oct 24 2018 2:10am

Rix assuming you still got the bomber? Maybe you could say a few words about what made you decide to hold on to that one rather then the sur ron when you got yourself the new Alta?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by pipeking » Oct 24 2018 4:12am

3DTOPO wrote:
Oct 22 2018 4:52pm
pipeking wrote:
Oct 22 2018 6:12am
A belt drive would be great for the su-mo version, but unless I'm missing something, dirt bikes don't use belt drive for a reason.

For that same reason, you can get a chain kit for the primary...
Well as you point out the primary is a belt drive and I have had absolutely no problems with it and all I ride is off-road.

As to why dirt bikes have chains, I suppose it's for a number of reasons. Chains can handle mud much better and can be a couple percent more efficient than belt-drives. One of the primary benefits of going with belt drive is it is much quieter, but I am sure that isn't a concern on IC bikes since you can't hear the chain over the engine.
Uh well, I have. Had problems with my primary drive getting packed with mud and whining... you think a belt is quiet? wait til the pulley gets packed with mud.

Did you see the photo Adam put up of the wear on his primary drive gears from dirt? I did. He upgraded to a primary chain drive because he is doing proper off road stuff...

Na honestly as the dirt bike guys, they don't use belt drive on any motocrosser

Belt snaps when your miles from home, your walking. Chain, and you just use your spare link (always got one, taped to bars)

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by motomoto » Oct 24 2018 11:26am

A belt system would only be for street riding and non-stressful fair weather dirt riding.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by bionicon » Oct 25 2018 5:16am

Has somebody the correct dimensions of the batterycase?
thx

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by motomoto » Oct 26 2018 11:16am

I looked for my Solidworks model of the battery case but I couldn't find it on my computer.
3d surron battery box red.jpg
3d surron boxes red.jpg

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by motomoto » Oct 26 2018 11:21am

I made a couple of videos for YouTube.




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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Oct 26 2018 2:46pm

Nice video. Damn, you passed up selling these bikes.. At least we could have had the person selling them active on the forum.

Not only do we need a setting to limit power like you mentioned, we need an option to limit distance. This way you can let people test ride the bike and not ride away with it. I could for example set it to only go 1/4 mile and then shut off and lock the bike up, then I could let random people take it for a test ride in public.

What I find interesting is that my current hub motored bike is so similar to the Sur-Ron in setup. Especially with the foot-pegs and motorcycle seat.From trial and error I found this setup to be best, because who the heck is really pedaling anyway.
I was always very vocal about how much better the foot-pegs and motorcycle seat are over a bicycle seat and pedals.



Image

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Duncan75 » Oct 26 2018 7:08pm

Guys, I'm interested in buying a Sur-Ron, but I'm not in the know so I have a few questions.

Is it smart to buy one in the next few months or are any improved versions or models in the works that are worth waiting for?

I'm from central EU, any good dealers you recommend?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » Oct 26 2018 7:45pm

Duncan75 wrote:
Oct 26 2018 7:08pm
Guys, I'm interested in buying a Sur-Ron, but I'm not in the know so I have a few questions.

Is it smart to buy one in the next few months or are any improved versions or models in the works that are worth waiting for?

I'm from central EU, any good dealers you recommend?
Sur-ron light bee homolgated version and off road model X (with sine wave controller and regen engine braking) versions are now available in Europe, so no need to wait.. locate your nearest dealer and why not go checkout and test ride the bikes first.. where are you located (country) ? here is a partial list if sur-ron dealers : viewtopic.php?f=31&t=90196&p=1356567#p1361231
some ride & sk8 videos:
metacafe.com/channels/NATAS666DAMIEN
http://www.youtube.com/natas666damien
i have nothing for sale.. :)

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Oct 26 2018 7:48pm

motomoto wrote:
Oct 26 2018 11:21am
I made a couple of videos for YouTube.
Nice review. I had to cringe when you talked about range, however.

Under even ideal, totally flat conditions, I think even 40-miles is a bit of stretch - unless perhaps you are as gentle with the throttle as possible and keeping the top speed below 15mph on nearly flat terrain. 60 miles? Maybe on the moon keeping the top speed below 15mph! :lol: I just don't think those are realistic figures given how most people are going to want to ride the thing under realistic conditions.

When Aspencreek visited for a ride, we started with 100% charge, rode 14-miles and got home with a 20% charge. Anything under that is really just a reserve too. Once you get below 10%, it goes super fast and the power cuts out even climbing a gentle hill. Grant it, we rode the thing pretty hard, but still.

If I drove for maximum range instead of maximum fun, I don't think I would get over 28 miles before hitting reserve power. It is anything but flat where I ride, but no way possible could I get anywhere close to 40 miles on a charge. As far as men go, I am a pretty lightweight 150 pounds.

The only reason why I am mentioning this is, I just think it sets unrealistic expectations and is more likely to disappoint people than not.

pipeking wrote:
Oct 24 2018 4:12am
3DTOPO wrote:
Oct 22 2018 4:52pm

Well as you point out the primary is a belt drive and I have had absolutely no problems with it and all I ride is off-road.

As to why dirt bikes have chains, I suppose it's for a number of reasons. Chains can handle mud much better and can be a couple percent more efficient than belt-drives. One of the primary benefits of going with belt drive is it is much quieter, but I am sure that isn't a concern on IC bikes since you can't hear the chain over the engine.
Uh well, I have. Had problems with my primary drive getting packed with mud and whining... you think a belt is quiet? wait til the pulley gets packed with mud.

Did you see the photo Adam put up of the wear on his primary drive gears from dirt? I did. He upgraded to a primary chain drive because he is doing proper off road stuff...

Na honestly as the dirt bike guys, they don't use belt drive on any motocrosser

Belt snaps when your miles from home, your walking. Chain, and you just use your spare link (always got one, taped to bars)
You raise some good points. It wouldn't be very difficult to carry a spare belt but would be a huge PITA to change on the trail compared to putting a new masterlink on (which I also carry with me).

I did get my Sur Ron early enough last Spring to ride under wet conditions, and while the ground was wet, it was never sloppy muddy. For where I live that is about as muddy as it gets and I never had a problem with the primary belt.

That said, if the primary belt did fail on me now - that would be a potentially very long walk home! I haven't been carrying a spare belt with me, and I am guessing that one would be even more a PITA to change on the trail. For that reason, I think I will consider converting the primary to chain too. Do you know where it is available? As a bonus, it might run a couple percent more efficient too.

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efMX Trials Electric Freeride   100 kW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » Oct 26 2018 8:13pm

3DTOPO wrote:
Oct 26 2018 7:48pm
You raise some good points. It wouldn't be very difficult to carry a spare belt but would be a huge PITA to change on the trail compared to putting a new masterlink on (which I also carry with me).

I did get my Sur Ron early enough last Spring to ride under wet conditions, and while the ground was wet, it was never sloppy muddy. For where I live that is about as muddy as it gets and I never had a problem with the primary belt.

That said, if the primary belt did fail on me now - that would be a potentially very long walk home! I haven't been carrying a spare belt with me, and I am guessing that one would be even more a PITA to change on the trail. For that reason, I think I will consider converting the primary to chain too. Do you know where it is available? As a bonus, it might run a couple percent more efficient too.
https://surron.co.uk/collections/access ... ersion-kit
some ride & sk8 videos:
metacafe.com/channels/NATAS666DAMIEN
http://www.youtube.com/natas666damien
i have nothing for sale.. :)

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Jonathan1981 » Oct 27 2018 12:35am

motomoto wrote:
Oct 26 2018 11:21am
I made a couple of videos for YouTube.



Hi Kim,

Nice video's, we get a good feel for your passion for all thing bike and I know we all share some of the same roots and history in how it developed... it's something only bike/dirt bike dudes can understand. good to learn about you also. General rule is don't self deprecate during a video.... for all you know, it might not even be accurate.

as you make more, get a script together, come in with a few key points and bang them out. We're all from the internet generation, that means we have zero attention span, more than 3 mins and we're clicking next. lol.

Have to agree with 3DTOPO, not sure where you're getting your range specs but they're just inaccurate, even for flat ground riding, no way you're getting 60+ miles. I usually start with 90 ish % charge and come back with 20-30%, good spirited riding on sport (avg. 30-40km/hr), small hills (elevation changes of max 100ft) and that equates to about 30kms (20miles).... for example. tonight I started with 94% SOC @ 486km odo, ended with 28% SOC @ 515km odo, so that's 29km ride (18miles). But for what it's worth, I'm always MORE than satisfied with my riding sessions. 30km's of spirited riding is plenty, I'm happy to come back & chill while she recharges.

anyway, keep it up man, I enjoyed the video's, great quality resolution also!
cheers

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by motomoto » Oct 27 2018 12:56am

I see your point about the mileage. Probably closer to 30 miles max.

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Rix   100 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Rix » Oct 27 2018 10:15am

motomoto wrote:
Oct 27 2018 12:56am
I see your point about the mileage. Probably closer to 30 miles max.
Really liked your vids Kim, also, thats a nice shiny read SurRon you got there. The potential range can be subjective for sure. I know with the 55T on my old green one, I could easily get 25 miles off road where I ride, but thats because It was nothing but climbing and descending. These machines don't use any energy going down hill, and climbing on single track trail, because my speeds were slow, the bike didn't use very much current. I remember Jay (Hyena) did a range test video and go 78 km out of his in eco mode. Thats almost 50 miles.So if one was to say the effective range of the SurRon is between 20 and 50 miles, that would be an accurate statement.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by fechter » Oct 27 2018 11:17am

Rix wrote:
Oct 27 2018 10:15am
So if one was to say the effective range of the SurRon is between 20 and 50 miles, that would be an accurate statement.
That sounds about right to me. If I ride on the street mostly full throttle I can get somewhere between 25-30 miles range. If I kept the speed down to under 15mph, I'm sure it would go a lot further, but that's usually no fun.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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