Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

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fechter   100 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by fechter » Nov 08 2018 4:57pm

n2mb wrote:
Nov 08 2018 4:27pm

There is something strange about the range I get on the Sur Ron. With the super moto wheels at 36 psi, I get about 30 mile range. With 1920 Whr, that works out to about 64 Wh / mi.

On my previous DD ebike that maxed out at 35 mph, I averaged 30 Wh / mi. Slower max, but somewhat similar average speeds.

I realize the Sur Ron weighs 110 lbs vs 60 lbs for my ebike, but it seems like a large difference. Is the controller really inefficient? The drive train? The extra rolling resistance from the fat tires vs bike tires?
That's pretty close to what I am seeing. There must be quite a bit of loss happening somewhere. I also notice going downhill when I let off the throttle, there is a noticeable drag, almost like light regen.

Anybody ever try checking the belt tension? Maybe it's too high. It could also be iron losses in the motor (thick laminations?)
Lifting the rear wheel and measuring the power with no load would tell a lot.

Other factors are things like controller design and hall sensor timing.

Generally speaking, anything that is wasting a lot of power is going to heat up so temperature measurements or FLIR might help pinpoint any inefficiencies.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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efMX Trials Electric Freeride   100 kW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » Nov 08 2018 5:08pm

fechter wrote:
Nov 08 2018 4:57pm
n2mb wrote:
Nov 08 2018 4:27pm

There is something strange about the range I get on the Sur Ron. With the super moto wheels at 36 psi, I get about 30 mile range. With 1920 Whr, that works out to about 64 Wh / mi.

On my previous DD ebike that maxed out at 35 mph, I averaged 30 Wh / mi. Slower max, but somewhat similar average speeds.

I realize the Sur Ron weighs 110 lbs vs 60 lbs for my ebike, but it seems like a large difference. Is the controller really inefficient? The drive train? The extra rolling resistance from the fat tires vs bike tires?
That's pretty close to what I am seeing. There must be quite a bit of loss happening somewhere. I also notice going downhill when I let off the throttle, there is a noticeable drag, almost like light regen.

Anybody ever try checking the belt tension? Maybe it's too high. It could also be iron losses in the motor (thick laminations?)
Lifting the rear wheel and measuring the power with no load would tell a lot.

Other factors are things like controller design and hall sensor timing.

Generally speaking, anything that is wasting a lot of power is going to heat up so temperature measurements or FLIR might help pinpoint any inefficiencies.
someone also hooked up a cycle analyst to LB, so that would be informative..
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Allex » Nov 08 2018 6:39pm

I bet lvc on the cells are set to 3V and this will give us about 2.6Ah per cell. Thats 28.6Ah Usable.
57.6V*28.6=1647Wh and not some imaginary 2000Wh. So lets be real here.
Add the bulky offroad motor tyres, belt and chain and you have a lot of drag compared to a hub motor.

I will soon re-cell my pack with 30Q cells and then its ready to be upgraded with ASI controller. X controller is great but if you know how to build bikes, why waste xtra 500bucks on it, better buy another controller.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by motomoto » Nov 08 2018 8:59pm

I will be visiting ASI at the end of this month. I sent them a Sur-ron motor. They will tune the 8000 controller and motor on a dyno to get the best settings. I will be selling the ASI 8000 controllers ready to go. I will probably make a battery case to hold whatever
state of the art LiPo packs we choose arranged in an 20s 2P, but the batteries won't be cheap to run the amps needed.

Any suggestions on LiPos that will fit in the battery space would be great. They need to be under 150mm long, high amp output,
reliable and a reasonable price.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Dwight \m/ » Nov 09 2018 1:27am

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive BikeQuote motomoto
by motomoto » Nov 08 2018 9:59pm

I will be visiting ASI at the end of this month. I sent them a Sur-ron motor. They will tune the 8000 controller and motor on a dyno to get the best settings. I will be selling the ASI 8000 controllers ready to go. I will probably make a battery case to hold whatever
state of the art LiPo packs we choose arranged in an 20s 2P, but the batteries won't be cheap to run the amps needed.

Any suggestions on LiPos that will fit in the battery space would be great. They need to be under 150mm long, high amp output,
reliable and a reasonable price.


Great news motomoto. Im patiently waiting fo some one to sell the ASI Controller. Im hoping they will not be dependant on upgrading the battery pack though. It would be cool if you could switch onthe fly between 50% more power to 100% power and 150% or back to stock power.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Allex » Nov 09 2018 2:40am

motomoto wrote:
Nov 08 2018 8:59pm
I will be visiting ASI at the end of this month. I sent them a Sur-ron motor. They will tune the 8000 controller and motor on a dyno to get the best settings. I will be selling the ASI 8000 controllers ready to go. I will probably make a battery case to hold whatever
state of the art LiPo packs we choose arranged in an 20s 2P, but the batteries won't be cheap to run the amps needed.

Any suggestions on LiPos that will fit in the battery space would be great. They need to be under 150mm long, high amp output,
reliable and a reasonable price.
Thats news! Personally I think BAC 4000 will be a good balance between power and not melting the motor or stress out other components. I don't think one should expect long lifetime on the bike while pushing 30kW through it. While they have your motor, ask them to tune in BAC4k for it too!

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by fechter » Nov 09 2018 9:13am

The BAC8000 is huge, so it will be a challenge to mount it neatly. Below is the one Luna wired up for torture testing.
Img_0762A.jpg
Img_0762A.jpg (122.44 KiB) Viewed 459 times
I was looking into the Powervelocity 24FET versions. It would be a tight fit also, but at least the main battery and phase wire connections are located similarly to the stock controller. And for sure it would be easier to get dialed in.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Nov 09 2018 10:13am

motomoto wrote:
Nov 08 2018 8:59pm
I will be visiting ASI at the end of this month. I sent them a Sur-ron motor. They will tune the 8000 controller and motor on a dyno to get the best settings. I will be selling the ASI 8000 controllers ready to go. I will probably make a battery case to hold whatever
state of the art LiPo packs we choose arranged in an 20s 2P, but the batteries won't be cheap to run the amps needed.

Any suggestions on LiPos that will fit in the battery space would be great. They need to be under 150mm long, high amp output,
reliable and a reasonable price.
Can you give me the interior dimensions of the battery case, I would like to estimate how many 18650 cells you can fit.

I would think most people are not going to use packs but use 18650 cells and just weld the pack.

Would be nice if we could get a company to make a controller that mounts nicely to the Sur-Ron, maybe you can see if ASI could do something for us.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by motomoto » Nov 09 2018 1:27pm

Dwight wrote:
Great news motomoto. Im patiently waiting fo some one to sell the ASI Controller. Im hoping they will not be dependant on upgrading the battery pack though. It would be cool if you could switch onthe fly between 50% more power to 100% power and 150% or back to stock power.
I think I will see if we can get more out of the stock battery pack as one option.

Offroader wrote:

Can you give me the interior dimensions of the battery case, I would like to estimate how many 18650 cells you can fit.

I would think most people are not going to use packs but use 18650 cells and just weld the pack.

Would be nice if we could get a company to make a controller that mounts nicely to the Sur-Ron, maybe you can see if ASI could do something for us.
I think that is a good idea to run high output 18650s or 21700s. Since we have no way of getting cases yet, glueing cells together
sounds like a good option until we have a nice case. If we could get stock battery cases with the battery holder plates with it, that
would be awesome. For now a glued pack of 25r Samsungs should give some performance, but not LiPo performance. The
outside of the pack is about 150mm x 140mm

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by macribs » Nov 09 2018 1:58pm

What would happen to the cell count if swapped for say Sanyo 20700 A or B cells and cells where glued together rather then using cell spacer?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by motomoto » Nov 09 2018 2:03pm

I will have 6 controllers from ASI. I will have 3 for the stock battery pack if we can get more performance out if it. I will
have 3 programmed for hotter batteries.

Any beta testers?
Last edited by motomoto on Nov 09 2018 2:08pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by motomoto » Nov 09 2018 2:07pm

mcribs wrote:
What would happen to the cell count if swapped for say Sanyo 20700 A or B cells and cells where glued together rather then using cell spacer?
Sounds like a badass pack !!! :shock: :twisted:

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by fechter » Nov 09 2018 3:04pm

motomoto wrote:
Nov 09 2018 2:03pm
I will have 6 controllers from ASI. I will have 3 for the stock battery pack if we can get more performance out if it. I will
have 3 programmed for hotter batteries.

Any beta testers?
Luna showed one of the packs disassembled and they doubled up on the BMS shunt resistors, which should double the trip point. I'm not sure how well the stock cells will do at that level but they can probably survive it for short bursts.

It would be interesting to see how much more you can get from the stock pack without tripping.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by macribs » Nov 09 2018 4:32pm

motomoto wrote:
Nov 09 2018 2:07pm
mcribs wrote:
What would happen to the cell count if swapped for say Sanyo 20700 A or B cells and cells where glued together rather then using cell spacer?
Sounds like a badass pack !!! :shock: :twisted:
It might be, but I don't know the internal size of the battery box so I can't determine how many 20700 cells will fit inside the box when glued together.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Allex » Nov 09 2018 6:24pm

fechter wrote:
Nov 09 2018 3:04pm
motomoto wrote:
Nov 09 2018 2:03pm
I will have 6 controllers from ASI. I will have 3 for the stock battery pack if we can get more performance out if it. I will
have 3 programmed for hotter batteries.

Any beta testers?
Luna showed one of the packs disassembled and they doubled up on the BMS shunt resistors, which should double the trip point. I'm not sure how well the stock cells will do at that level but they can probably survive it for short bursts.

It would be interesting to see how much more you can get from the stock pack without tripping.
imo wasted time, stock cells are good up to 110A but this will give you a lot of sag - means less power, early tripping, more heat, less life time.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by racingame » Nov 09 2018 9:02pm

motomoto wrote:
Nov 09 2018 2:03pm
I will have 6 controllers from ASI. I will have 3 for the stock battery pack if we can get more performance out if it. I will
have 3 programmed for hotter batteries.

Any beta testers?
How much do you plan for a plug and play BAC8000 with the ASI tweaked map? No BAC4000 option? I think that as Allex said, it should be plenty enough if you don't plan to run your bike to the limit till either burning it or decrease its lifetime by a long shot.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Nov 10 2018 12:51am

Allex wrote:
Nov 09 2018 2:40am
I don't think one should expect long lifetime on the bike while pushing 30kW through it.
Very true - Luna’s burnt up after around the 100th pull.

motomoto wrote:
Nov 09 2018 2:03pm
I will have 6 controllers from ASI. I will have 3 for the stock battery pack if we can get more performance out if it. I will
have 3 programmed for hotter batteries.

Any beta testers?
I might be interested. What would the potential benefits be over the X Controller (with the stock battery)?

Would there be a case or anything to weatherproof the controller?

How much would it cost?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by motomoto » Nov 10 2018 1:34am

fechter wrote:
Luna showed one of the packs disassembled and they doubled up on the BMS shunt resistors, which should double the trip point. I'm not sure how well the stock cells will do at that level but they can probably survive it for short bursts.
I tried doing the added resistor thing. The bike went slower and the battery gauge was jacked up and the pack wouldn't charge.
I took all the resistors off and everything worked normal again.

racinggame wrote:
How much do you plan for a plug and play BAC8000 with the ASI tweaked map? No BAC4000 option? I think that as Allex said, it should be plenty enough if you don't plan to run your bike to the limit till either burning it or decrease its lifetime by a long shot.
I want super fast and it will cost whatever it costs. At this point I am not interested in satisfying everyone's idea of stages of
fast. I want to see what the limit of the motor is in terms of power output. At what point are you just creating heat? What
does the dyno say? It will tell you. If the field weakening is programmed optimally what will that do? The BAC4000 surely
could be an option as a mid level controller, but that is not what I am working on at this time.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by macribs » Nov 10 2018 5:50am

I want super fast and it will cost whatever it costs. At this point I am not interested in satisfying everyone's idea of stages of
fast. I want to see what the limit of the motor is in terms of power output. At what point are you just creating heat? What
does the dyno say? It will tell you. If the field weakening is programmed optimally what will that do? The BAC4000 surely
could be an option as a mid level controller, but that is not what I am working on at this time.
Have you considered any of the mobipus controllers for the Sur Ron? Seems there are a few to choose from that should give you all the performance you are seeking. Note that the rated phase current in the continuous phase current. Peak phase current can be upwards of 200 A more :twisted:

viewtopic.php?f=31&t=97120
Mobipus 72100 Controller 299 USD
Operating Votage Range : 36V-90V
Continous Battery Current: 100A
Continous Phase Current : 250A
Rated Power : 7.2kw

Mobipus 72150 Controller 399 USD
Operating Votage Range : 36V-90V
Continous Battery Current: 150A
Continous Phase Current : 250A
Rated Power : 10.8kw

Mobipus 72200 Controller 459 USD
Operating Votage Range : 36V-90V
Continous Battery Current: 200A
Continous Phase Current : 350A
Rated Power : 14.4kw

Mobipus 72400 Controller 899 USD
Operating Votage Range : 36V-90V
Continous Battery Current: 400A
Continous Phase Current : 600A
Rated Power : 28.8kw

Mobipus 72600 Controller 1099 USD
Operating Votage Range : 36V-90V
Continous Battery Current: 600A
Continous Phase Current : 800A
Rated Power : 43.2kw

Features:

- Mobipus controller has over 300 programmable settings for you to toggle with, allow for a high degree of customization.
- The rating of our controller is all rated continuous, the peak current can easily go 100a-200a over the rated current. High continuous battery current allows you to have a consistent acceleration from the beginning to the end.
- Compact, Lighter weight, Reliable with high energy density.
- Hybrid Drive Mode allowing for both six-step, FOC or a mix of both.
- Field Weakening algorithm allowing you to go exceed the KV value of the motor.
- Hall sensor, PWM Encoder, Sin/Cos Encoder supported.
- Insane output, E-Bike race ready. With proper design, the controller has the potential of making 0-100km/h in 3.8 seconds with a top speed of over 160km/h on an E-scooter.
- You can design the linearity of throttle output to match your desired riding experience.
- Matches all PMSM motors.
- Regen Braking.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by artisanstone » Nov 10 2018 9:23am

motomoto wrote:
Nov 10 2018 1:34am
fechter wrote:
Luna showed one of the packs disassembled and they doubled up on the BMS shunt resistors, which should double the trip point. I'm not sure how well the stock cells will do at that level but they can probably survive it for short bursts.
I tried doing the added resistor thing. The bike went slower and the battery gauge was jacked up and the pack wouldn't charge.
I took all the resistors off and everything worked normal again.

racinggame wrote:
How much do you plan for a plug and play BAC8000 with the ASI tweaked map? No BAC4000 option? I think that as Allex said, it should be plenty enough if you don't plan to run your bike to the limit till either burning it or decrease its lifetime by a long shot.
I want super fast and it will cost whatever it costs. At this point I am not interested in satisfying everyone's idea of stages of
fast. I want to see what the limit of the motor is in terms of power output. At what point are you just creating heat? What
does the dyno say? It will tell you. If the field weakening is programmed optimally what will that do? The BAC4000 surely
could be an option as a mid level controller, but that is not what I am working on at this time.
It seems like the starting point would be battery design and production. Everything else would flow from that. Without that established, you don't know how many amps you can feed controller and at what range, or overall cost. I would be very interested in doing this, but there would be extremes of both range and cost that would make it not worth it to me. Example, I'd be totally uninterested in either a $10,000 battery or a super fast bike that would only run 10 minutes.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by motomoto » Nov 10 2018 10:45am

artisanstone wrote:
It seems like the starting point would be battery design and production. Everything else would flow from that. Without that established, you don't know how many amps you can feed controller and at what range, or overall cost. I would be very interested in doing this, but there would be extremes of both range and cost that would make it not worth it to me. Example, I'd be totally uninterested in either a $10,000 battery or a super fast bike that would only run 10 minutes.
I don't think the starting point is the battery. I say it's the motor. The next question is how much money do you want to
spend feeding that motor. Everyone has their own budget on how fast they want to go. I just want to find out what the
point of diminishing returns is on the motor

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by artisanstone » Nov 10 2018 11:18am

motomoto wrote:
Nov 10 2018 10:45am
artisanstone wrote:
It seems like the starting point would be battery design and production. Everything else would flow from that. Without that established, you don't know how many amps you can feed controller and at what range, or overall cost. I would be very interested in doing this, but there would be extremes of both range and cost that would make it not worth it to me. Example, I'd be totally uninterested in either a $10,000 battery or a super fast bike that would only run 10 minutes.
I don't think the starting point is the battery. I say it's the motor. The next question is how much money do you want to
spend feeding that motor. Everyone has their own budget on how fast they want to go. I just want to find out what the
point of diminishing returns is on the motor
I'd imagine you would know better than me. Would the dyno testing be done by ASI as they're tuning the controller? We know already that the motor can be pushed pretty far because of the Luna bike, correct?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by motomoto » Nov 10 2018 6:37pm

artisanstone wrote:
I'd imagine you would know better than me. Would the dyno testing be done by ASI as they're tuning the controller? We know already that the motor can be pushed pretty far because of the Luna bike, correct?
It is just my opinion that you would find out what the motor is capable of. Luna supposedly got it to a high
level but never put it on a dyno. Luke said it would do 80 mph with stock gearing. The Luna videos purport that the Sur-ron
is faster than a 70 hp 450 supermoto bike. The way the 450 bogged off the line makes me wonder. The bike was taken to
Laguna Seca for the electric motorcycle races and blew up at 100 mph. I just want to see on a dyno at ASI, with a well tuned controller, what the motor is capable of.
Last edited by motomoto on Nov 10 2018 7:04pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Allex » Nov 10 2018 7:00pm

motomoto wrote:
Nov 10 2018 6:37pm
The way the 450 bogged off the line makes me wonder.
Your wonder is reasonable, that start was fake.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by madin88 » Nov 11 2018 8:09am

motomoto wrote:
Nov 10 2018 6:37pm
I just want to see on a dyno at ASI, with a well tuned controller, what the motor is capable of.
It would be cool if ASI can do this.
They also might have the necessary equipment like a power supply or 20s battery capeable of what the BAC8000 is rated for.

Regarding the battery i would take a new one and remove the internals first (which you could reuse later to repair an old or worn battery)
Then i would install the best LiPos i could find and fill it up with resin (for safety against vibrations etc.)
In terms of BMS it could be hard to find one capeable of what BAC8000 can do (500-600A?), but you also could use something that does just voltage monitoring and tells you if one group has reached LVC. Then you stop manually.

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