Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by fechter » Dec 08 2018 7:34pm

Nice video on the stairs :thumb:

I think the Sur-ron motor and drive train can easily handle 10+kW. The battery is the limiting factor. Sooner or later they will come out with better performing cells and a battery rebuild will be pretty attractive. Stuffing the battery housing full of Lipo would be another option.
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Dec 08 2018 9:06pm

fechter wrote:
Dec 08 2018 7:34pm
Nice video on the stairs :thumb:

I think the Sur-ron motor and drive train can easily handle 10+kW. The battery is the limiting factor. Sooner or later they will come out with better performing cells and a battery rebuild will be pretty attractive. Stuffing the battery housing full of Lipo would be another option.
Thanks.

Fechter I measured the inside of my battery case and it seems to measure 150 mm on all locations. This makes me believe my frame is not wider. I think it would be highly unlikely they would make the frame out of alignment because its all on jigs.

If you have a precision measuring tool like a caliper, can you measure the inside of your battery compartment opening and let me know if you get 150 mm. Thanks

I'm leaning on its either the battery case that got smaller or the plastic inserts got smaller. I also saw another orange X version on youtube that had his display not line up either and was pushed to the left which makes me think its just not my bike having this battery issue.

My battery display also seemed to have been updated as I have a frame/border around my display and the older Sur-Rons were flat around the display.

I think Sur Ron needs to be contacted and they need to make modified inserts or a fix for this as its probably many people who are going to have this issue. I of course can improvise with foam or something but I would like proper plastic inserts to hold the battery.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by ziltoid81 » Dec 08 2018 9:13pm

Allex wrote:
Dec 08 2018 5:46pm
Personally, regen is pointless unless you can actually control it with a button, because sometimes you just want to cruise - using the kinetic energy and sometimes you want to brake.
Thats my personal downside of the sur ron.
I can live with less power and speed but im so used to regen, since i want to use it for commuting.

Could get one here in germany for 3900€ and there are plenty of shops now that sell for 4200 but i will wait till this thing gets regen.
Maybe the prizes will drop further as i wait.

Will continue to ride my hub setup, the adaptto counts 8800km, so all the "long term" reviews with 500 or 1000km of the sur ron are not really a mark for me.

The sur ron is a good looking toy for offroading out of the box, but nothing to use it seriously for commuting.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Dec 09 2018 12:39am

Have any of you guys cut down the width of the handlebars? They feel kind of wide and I'm not sure if I should cut it down a little bit. They are 3" wider than my other ebike.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by macribs » Dec 09 2018 1:52am

Offroader wrote:
Dec 07 2018 6:00pm
BTW. how do you ride in the winter without having your fingers freeze? Gloves don't seem to help for long.
Congrats on your new bike, I am sure you eventually will squeeze more power from this, modding or tweaking.

For riding in the cold I find there is only one solution on any bikes or even snowmobiles. Handlebar "bark busters". It deflect the cold wind away form your hands. Big win. Btw, on the subject of snowmobiles, maybe you can get a snowmobile throttle to swap out the original? Then you got your thumb throttle without any messy wiring. Any cable operated one should do the trick.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by evolutiongts » Dec 09 2018 8:29am

More messing around with Sur Ron on 20S 100A, ASI controller.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Allex » Dec 09 2018 9:09am

evolutiongts wrote:
Dec 09 2018 8:29am
More messing around with Sur Ron on 20S 100A, ASI controller.

How much phase amps do you feed it with, does it feel more powerful compared to the stock controller?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by macribs » Dec 09 2018 9:50am

evolutiongts wrote:
Dec 09 2018 8:29am
More messing around with Sur Ron on 20S 100A, ASI controller.
Hm. From the look of it on the video you can see the power output got a huge jump up to 6.5kw. But to raise the speed seems to take a while? What is the pants in the seat feeling about mid range acceleration with 20s? Any more kick or just higher top speed?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Thrice » Dec 09 2018 10:08am

Offroader wrote:
Dec 09 2018 12:39am
Have any of you guys cut down the width of the handlebars? They feel kind of wide and I'm not sure if I should cut it down a little bit. They are 3" wider than my other ebike.
Congrats on your Sur Ron, I’m getting mine in two days, been lurking around this thread. This is my first post, anyways I know from My MX experience I have always cut my bars about 3/4” depending on the brand of bars I get, I know I will be cutting my bars when I get it. Some questions I got for you Offroader, at what charge was you pack at when you first checked it? What’s gearing did yours come with? Did you check your spoke tension on your wheels?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Dec 09 2018 10:58am

macribs wrote:
Dec 09 2018 1:52am

Congrats on your new bike, I am sure you eventually will squeeze more power from this, modding or tweaking.

For riding in the cold I find there is only one solution on any bikes or even snowmobiles. Handlebar "bark busters". It deflect the cold wind away form your hands. Big win. Btw, on the subject of snowmobiles, maybe you can get a snowmobile throttle to swap out the original? Then you got your thumb throttle without any messy wiring. Any cable operated one should do the trick.
Thanks, yes eventually there will be lots of aftermarket parts for the bike. They will have much better controllers that fit properly for this bike and tuned specifically for the motor. I'm thinking this may be 1 or 2 years away, but that is OK. I really would like if someone made a rear fender like the ones they had for the stealth bike, where it attaches to the mounting holes on the swingarm.

At this point I'm going to stick it out with the twist for a little while longer. I can tell my 2nd day of riding I was much better with it already. The only thing I don't like about the twist is that you can't really cover the brakes easily, and its more difficult to go full throttle when standing.
SO what happens is if I'm going full throttle to jump off something or to ride over something very large, I have to take my finger off of the brake to go full throttle. Since its more dangerous what I am doing that is exactly when I want to have the brakes covered to stop instantly. I think I may learn my way around this.

I actually do have bark busters or hand guards from my 1st Qulbix build I could use, but the problem is that they really make the bike look like a dirt bike and it may increase the chances of getting bothered by police and I think people may also get more mad in the places I ride because they think I'm riding a dirt bike. These were the reasons I took them off.

What I found best is heated grips, they work so well and I have them on my Qulbix. I use them in the low 40's with half fingered gloves and my fingers don't get cold. To use them I'll have to add a DC/DC converter and get new grips.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Dec 09 2018 11:23am

Thrice wrote:
Dec 09 2018 10:08am
Offroader wrote:
Dec 09 2018 12:39am
Have any of you guys cut down the width of the handlebars? They feel kind of wide and I'm not sure if I should cut it down a little bit. They are 3" wider than my other ebike.
Congrats on your Sur Ron, I’m getting mine in two days, been lurking around this thread. This is my first post, anyways I know from My MX experience I have always cut my bars about 3/4” depending on the brand of bars I get, I know I will be cutting my bars when I get it. Some questions I got for you Offroader, at what charge was you pack at when you first checked it? What’s gearing did yours come with? Did you check your spoke tension on your wheels?
Thanks,

My battery was at 66% charge out of the box and my X version came with a 48 tooth.

I have been checking the spoke tension and you will have to stay on top of this until you notice the spokes are not coming loose. The spokes are not too bad and I have not had a spoke so loose that you can turn the nipple by hand. When I go around the spokes and tap them with my metal spoke wrench, there are a few spokes that don't make the clink sound and those spokes only need like a quarter turn to get back into spec.

I believe they didn't tension the spokes enough so what I did was I went around the whole wheel and turned each nipple a quarter of a turn after 2 rides. If any of the nipples were very hard to turn I wouldn't turn those. There is a proper sequence for tightening all the spokes like you start with the 1st spoke, and skip 2, then tighten the next, then when you went completely around you start with the 2nd spoke... You will have to look this up on you tube to do it properly. I would probably recommend you do this to tighten up the wheel just a little bit, maybe 1/4 turn each spoke or 1/2 turn each spoke after 2 passes.

Right now I"m just buying myself time, I know eventually I will have to unloosen all the spokes and rebuild the wheel with proper tension if I want a true and maintenance free wheel.

You may want to check the air pressure, I didn't because they felt tight but I noticed after my ride yesterday my front had 7 PSI, I didn't even notice it was that low when riding. The rear was 17 PSI, so I put 17PSI in the front.

The nipples measure around 4.5 - 4.6 mm , so you will need a spoke wrench in that size. I use this one because I had it for my other bike but it is 5.0 mm. It does the job just fine and works great for tapping spokes for listening for loose spokes, but it measure 5.0 mm and not 4.5 mm. I'm not sure if there are any 4.5 mm spoke wrenches which would have a much tighter fit and less prone to rounding the nipples. But honestly, if you are rounding nipples you are probably putting way too much tension on the spokes.

https://www.amazon.com/Motion-Pro-08-05 ... B009J7P3KW

EDIT:

here is a good video on how to tighten all your spokes properly, by skipping every 2 spokes, without getting it off true. I would do maybe 2 passes of 1/4 turns. I'm not sure if you would want more tension then that. If any nipple feel really tight then don't tighten it more, you may even want to back it off 1/8" turn. You will quickly get a feel to which nipples are too tight as there will be a few that are much tighter than the others.

I would do this for 1/4" turn once even before you ride it the first time.

Last edited by Offroader on Dec 09 2018 11:57am, edited 10 times in total.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by SlowCo » Dec 09 2018 11:24am

For cold fingers you can use "handle bar mitts". (Google them)
If you combine them with heated grips you'll have even toastier hands :flame:

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by evolutiongts » Dec 09 2018 1:50pm

macribs wrote:
Dec 09 2018 9:50am
evolutiongts wrote:
Dec 09 2018 8:29am
More messing around with Sur Ron on 20S 100A, ASI controller.
Hm. From the look of it on the video you can see the power output got a huge jump up to 6.5kw. But to raise the speed seems to take a while? What is the pants in the seat feeling about mid range acceleration with 20s? Any more kick or just higher top speed?
Running the stock 42T sprocket (42T or 46T dont remember), it really needs more reduction, the motor is trying to push too high a gear. Seat of the pants feeling, is a signicant improvement in acceleration in low end, mid range, and more top end.

Stock 60V battery would accelerate strong up to 35mph, slows down from 36mph-42mph, then crawl from 43mph-48mph.

20S would accelerate strongly up to 45mph, tapering off at 50-53mph then finally crawl to 57mph. Could probably do more with more amps and field weakening.
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by motomoto » Dec 09 2018 4:26pm

evolutiongts wrote:
20S would accelerate strongly up to 45mph, tapering off at 50-53mph then finally crawl to 57mph. Could probably do more with more amps and field weakening.
Sounds like a pretty damn good start.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by macribs » Dec 10 2018 12:06am

Offroader wrote:
Dec 09 2018 10:58am


I actually do have bark busters or hand guards from my 1st Qulbix build I could use, but the problem is that they really make the bike look like a dirt bike and it may increase the chances of getting bothered by police and I think people may also get more mad in the places I ride because they think I'm riding a dirt bike. These were the reasons I took them off.

What I found best is heated grips, they work so well and I have them on my Qulbix. I use them in the low 40's with half fingered gloves and my fingers don't get cold. To use them I'll have to add a DC/DC converter and get new grips.
Me I hate heated grips. Nothings worse then getting your palms broiled and sweaty, yet your front side of the hand/knuckles still getting stiff and sore from the ice cold wind blasting over the gloves... If you look at Ski Doo genuine parts they got clear see thru bark busters with just a thin logo in the middle, a little wider then the brake lever. Makes em not stand out at all. I am sure there are others clear ones as well if you look around.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by derb » Dec 10 2018 5:18am

One week ago I reached the 2000km (1250 Miles).

20181205_220836.jpg

short feedback:
- Every 200-300km / 125-188 miles I have to retighten the chain.
- I had to renew the brake pads
- Spoke tension had to be re-tensioned.
- The steering head bearing makes crackling noises and must be replaced.

The Sur Ron is only driven on trails and it is not spared. The trails have roots and stones and rarely smooth forest soil. I am very happy with the whole package and got used to the lower performance (I also have an Etricks with 7.2kW). I just miss a bit more reach. Especially in the summer I would like to drive even longer.

Brakes:
I had the MT5 in front to test (I had borrowed) and that worked great.
The braking force was great and a huge difference to the original brake.

However, I have now got a Shimano Saint because I like the shorter levers.
The braking force is even higher :twisted:

20181208_213611.jpg
20181208_213520.jpg
20181208_213530.jpg

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by motomoto » Dec 10 2018 8:32am

Sweet brakes.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Dec 10 2018 11:47am

Derb, last time I used my bike I noticed an odd noise but wasn't sure if it always made that noise, I wonder now if it could be the chain loosening. I think it made the noise mostly when I left off the throttle and coasted. I guess I have to keep my eye on the chain.

Without Regen you will eat bicycle brake pads unfortunately. Surprised you got only less than 200 miles out of them, but they do go quickly without regen.

Not sure if that is your issue but luna cycles said Sur-Ron used a plastic insert or something in the headset and that it fails and needs to be replaced. Your headset is probably bad.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by liveforphysics » Dec 10 2018 2:30pm

Along with the chain re-tension standard moto maintenance, don't forget to check the primary belt reduction tension as well, as it also relaxes a bit as the belt wears in.
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Dec 10 2018 3:06pm

derb wrote:
Dec 10 2018 5:18am


Brakes:
I had the MT5 in front to test (I had borrowed) and that worked great.
The braking force was great and a huge difference to the original brake.

However, I have now got a Shimano Saint because I like the shorter levers.
The braking force is even higher :twisted:

Derb, forgot to ask you, any reason you choose the Saint brakes over the Zee brakes?

Did the saint brakes fit, especially the hoses without needing any cutting, like were they drop in replacement for front and rear?

Thanks

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Dec 10 2018 7:20pm

I checked my chain tension today and after 50 miles there was a lot of slack. Maybe about 1.5". When basing the correct tension off this link https://electricbike.com/forum/forum/kn ... tial-setup recommends between .5" and .75". I believe this may have been that odd noise I was hearing yesterday.

I believe the chain was tight when I got the bike and in less than 50 miles became very loose.

I decided I'm going to swap over to the thumb throttle ASAP. The big reason is safety. I had to twice jump off the bike
quickly when climbing stairs midway and was able to luckily save my bike. The reason was is that its too difficult to give precise throttle control when standing and since I need to stand when I climb stairs I can't control the throttle properly which caused me to loose control of the bike.
I also landed some high jumps and since my wrist was not in an optimal position I felt that pain when you over extend your wrist, I did this a couple of times already on a jump I did many times before with my thumb throttle without issue. The reason I think I'm hurting my wrist is that i have my wrist bent forward to make sure I don't have the throttle engaged when I land, but by doing that I push off the handlebars when I land which causes that pain of overextending my wrist.

I also, what I just learned they call, "whiskey throttle". I did that a few times by accidentally accelerating when I didn't want to. I can not remember this ever happening to me with the thumb throttle because your hand is always perfectly stable on the handlebar. When you land jumps or climb over stuff you take your thumb completely off the throttle which allow you to never accidentally accelerate.

I'm going to switch over before I drop my bike or worse get injured. I really believe the thumb throttle gives much safer and precise control and I believe this is true and its just not that I am not experienced enough with the twist throttle. It comes down to simple physics, the thumb throttle is extremely safe and more precise in that your hand is firmly grabbing the handlebar and stationary at all times, and your hand position never changes sitting or standing, which makes for very precise control of the throttle at all times by just moving your thumb, either sitting and standing. Plus it allows you to always have the brakes covered at all times, even when you go full throttle.

Sorry guys I keep harping on this, I really just don't get why people like the twist throttle when the thumb is better in so many ways. I play certain competitive video games where controls are so important and I know what good control is.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by liveforphysics » Dec 10 2018 8:13pm

Your wrist takes time to develop throttle control. Once you achieve the wrist control, you can tackle the most gnarly stuff with perfect throttle precision while having a full grip on the bar with both hands.

If you go to thumb throttle, you will be capped in performance to only ride things mellow enough you don't need to wrap your fingers and thumb around the bar. In MX riding or Trials or Endurocross riding, those thumbs wrapped under the bar holding it as snug as possible is still inadequate and the bar gets ripped free from your hands on big hits still.
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by aspencreek » Dec 10 2018 9:53pm

I'm opposite of you Offroader - I'd much rather have a twist throttle than thumb, and having this bike set up more like a dirt bike with the throttle and pegs (not pedals) was a big selling point to me. When I've ridden ATVs or other eBikes with thumb throttles I'm always wishing I could switch to a twist as my thumb / hand starts cramping up after a while trying to hold the thumb throttles in position. That's never been an issue with a twist. Also, not sure if you are doing this already so ignore this if you do, but typically you want to try to grip the bike with your legs pretty firmly and not have too much weight on your arms. That way if you start to whiskey throttle you don't get thrown backward which then can make the acceleration even worse as you accidentally twist the throttle more trying to hang on to the bike.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by aspencreek » Dec 10 2018 9:57pm

Oh, and here's mine all set up by the way. Went with blue and it sure looks good clean! Only had a chance to run it around the neighborhood a little bit so far, but hopefully I can get out for a real ride soon.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Allex » Dec 11 2018 3:36am

liveforphysics wrote:
Dec 10 2018 8:13pm
Your wrist takes time to develop throttle control. Once you achieve the wrist control, you can tackle the most gnarly stuff with perfect throttle precision while having a full grip on the bar with both hands.

If you go to thumb throttle, you will be capped in performance to only ride things mellow enough you don't need to wrap your fingers and thumb around the bar. In MX riding or Trials or Endurocross riding, those thumbs wrapped under the bar holding it as snug as possible is still inadequate and the bar gets ripped free from your hands on big hits still.
And a human brain is amazing, you can learn almost anything. Just look at the moto guys performing these unbelievable stunts, and all that with the twist throttle. But wait... they have to keep their mind on the clutch and gears as well. You are right, with the thumb on the throttle you are missing out on the super grip you otherwise have wrapping it around the grip instead - A must have when doing non mellow stuff.

Regarding the chain, swap it out for a high quality one and forget about it. I know Rix did the upgrade and never had to tension afterwards.

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