Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

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flathill   100 kW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by flathill » Dec 13 2018 4:26am

Thumb throttles r weaksauce. You can't ride trials with em which is the ultimate test. That was figured out in the 70s in france and austria. prove me wrong and post a video hopping up on a boulder

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bigbore   10 kW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by bigbore » Dec 13 2018 9:16am

+1 ....
I've been riding motorcycles from 27 years and once I tried a thumb throttle on my Stealth Bomber and it was the baddest idea I have ever had :D

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by fechter » Dec 13 2018 10:17am

A Domino throttle should work fine but will need a couple of resistors to make the output in the same range as a hall. The microswitch is not really needed. Over a long time, these had a track record of wearing out.

There may be some decent quality hall effect twist throttles out there that would be another option. Most of them are not IP67 but can be potted with epoxy or silicone with a little bit of work so they can operate under water.

I've ridden motorcycles since before I could drive a car and I'm quite used to a regular twist throttle. I've tried thumb throttles but didn't like them. It's a personal preference thing.
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Rix   100 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Rix » Dec 13 2018 10:40am

bigbore wrote:
Dec 13 2018 9:16am
+1 ....
I've been riding motorcycles from 27 years and once I tried a thumb throttle on my Stealth Bomber and it was the baddest idea I have ever had :D
+1, I rode a 3 wheeled CR250ATC back in the day with a thumb throttle, it sucked ballzz. Maybe it sucked because it was a 3 wheeled death trap as well. I know snow mobiles have them as well, never could get used to it.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Dec 13 2018 10:44am

3DTOPO wrote:
Dec 12 2018 11:50pm
Offroader wrote:
Dec 12 2018 11:31pm

Yuck get that thing off my bike. No reason to use a steel cable that just converts the signal to halls for the controller and that probably adds resistance and play into your throttle control.
Good point. Think something like this would work?

https://amzn.to/2PAn5XY
Yes basically any ebike throttle will work. They all work on the 5volt halls signal.

The twist throttle on the Sur-Ron didn't seem really smooth to me so it may be something you could try. The one drawback is the cable twist throttle on the bike is probably more robust and won't break as easy if you drop the bike.

In the end an ebike throttle, or what the Sur-Ron uses gets the same signal sent to the controller. So why bother to have all the resistance in the cable, the play and the large twist it takes to get full throttle.

I also notice that where the cable attaches and swivels in the Sur-Ron, the device that converts the signal to halls that I removed, seemed to be rubbing up on the black heat shrink. This may have been why I always felt the Sur-Ron throttle felt a little sticky.
Last edited by Offroader on Dec 13 2018 12:15pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Dec 13 2018 12:14pm

flathill wrote:
Dec 13 2018 4:26am
Thumb throttles r weaksauce. You can't ride trials with em which is the ultimate test. That was figured out in the 70s in france and austria. prove me wrong and post a video hopping up on a boulder
What I believe is that preference comes down to what you are used to, and most people don't allow enough time to learn the other throttle. It took about a month for where the thumb throttle didn't fatigue my thumb, then I could ride all day with it.

My issue with the twist is not because I didn't spend enough time with it, I can see the limitations of the twist throttle when comparing it to an ebike thumb throttle and I know that no amount of practice with it will overcome these limitations.

I am also very picky with the type of thumb throttle I use and how it is positioned on the handlebar. This is because I want my hand in the exact same position if I'm full throttle or no throttle, standing and sitting and also have my hand firmly grasped around the handlebar at all throttle positions. I DO NOT really like the thumb throttles they use on snow mobiles or ATVs that move horizontally (like in picture below) but I like the typical ebike thumb throttle they use on ebikes that move vertically.

The ebike thumb throttle allows you to keep a better grip on the handlebar while a snow mobile / ATV thumb forces your thumb and hand back in a position that makes you have to release pressure from the handlebar to engage the throttle.

Here are the pros that I notice from the thumb throttle and that lack in the twist throttle.

1) Thumb throttle Keeps your hand tightly around on the handlebar no matter if you are full throttle or no throttle, sitting or standing. I'm constantly standing and leaning with a lot of my off-road riding.
2) Keeps your hand easily covering the the brakes at all times.
3) No risk of accidentally giving the wrong throttle, or no "whiskey throttle"
4) Very quick to go full throttle as its only a slight move of the thumb, the twist takes time.
5) When things get dangerous, you can easily latch on to the stationary handlebars and there will be no slippage or accidental throttle.



I also believe the thumb throttle gives you very precise control because your hand is stationary on the handlebars and your thumb controls exactly what throttle you want. It basically is 100% precise control of the throttle at all times, sitting or standing, leaning the bike, going over bumbs or harsh terrain as your hand is always in the exact same position relative to the throttle. This makes the thumb throttle actually perfect for slow speed trial bikes tricks where you need 100% precise control whether you are sitting or standing and moving around.


Now for what someone said was a drawback for the thumb that the twist throttle allows you to keep a your thumb fully grasped on the handlebar so the bar doesn't get ripped out of your hand. I can say I am not seeing this at all with an ebike.

I can easily and always lift the front of the bike up while giving throttle and brakes covered. The bar is held firmly in my hand at all times and I never once came close to the bar coming loose. Maybe large gas dirt bikes can do this but certainly not an issue with 110lbs ebikes.

The reason why I have a firm grip is because of the type of thumb throttle I use which keeps my hand fully grasped on the handlebar and my thumb still under the handlebar giving support when engaging the throttle.

Look at the picture below when I'm giving full throttle, my finger is easily covering the brakes for safety, my thumb is also under the handlebar pushing up giving me a very good firm grip. I can pull the front of the bike up easily like this. My hand also stays exactly in that position whether I'm sitting or standing. When I'm going over bumpy terrain, my hand still stays firmly and there is no chance to move the throttle, unlike a twist throttle which bumps can make you accidentally twist the throttle.

This is the issue I have with trigger type thumb throttles they use on ATV/snow mobiles is that your thumb isn't giving support under the handlebar. They force your thumb back which forces your hand back and doesn't give you a firm grip. The ebike thumb throttles are very close to the handlebar and your thumb and move naturally with your thumb while having your grip firmly grabbing the handlebar.

Also compare this with a twist where once you stand your throttle control changes completely, no way to cover the brakes and give full throttle easily, or even give full throttle at all. For example sometimes I climb these really steep hills where I have to lean past my handlebars, how can I engage the twist throttle easily like this? This is why I lost the bike twice in a row climbing stairs because of standing and not having good control of the throttle.

Really to sum everything up it isn't even close to compare a twist to thumb throttle in control. The Thumb gives you much better, safer, accurate control at all times for very obvious reasons. It is so obvious because how can a twist throttle which forces your wrist into different positions, which changes when you sit or stand or move around, which doesn't allow you to firmly grab the handlebars compare to something that is perfectly stationary at all times in relation to where you grab the handlebars.

The best way to look at it is a thumb throttle is like controlling the throttle with your mind and having no throttle at all and you can grip the handlebars which don't twist on you. Compare that to a twist throttle which is forcing you to change your hand / wrist position all the time, and the handlebar is swirling around on you so you can't grasp the handlebars firmly and cover the brakes at all times.

The picture below you can see I'm giving full throttle and covering the brakes naturally. My hand is firmly grasped on the handlebar and my thumb is giving support under the bar while also engaging the throttle. This position never changes if I'm sitting, standing, leaning, giving me the exact same control at all times while covering the brakes at all times. This is the perfect way to have full control of the bike at all times, almost as if you are controlling the throttle by your mind and your hand is free to do what it wants.
Image

The thumb throttle below which is typically found on ATV & snowmobiles I don't really like because they move your thumb and hand back and don't allow the best grip. This may be because they have to move a cable and the leverage is needed. Ebike thumb throttles are much closer to the handlebar which allows you to keep your hand tightly around the bar and you just need to move your thumb slightly to control it.

Image

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mbldc   100 µW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by mbldc » Dec 13 2018 1:42pm

Offroader wrote:
Dec 13 2018 10:44am
I also notice that where the cable attaches and swivels in the Sur-Ron, the device that converts the signal to halls that I removed, seemed to be rubbing up on the black heat shrink. This may have been why I always felt the Sur-Ron throttle felt a little sticky.
That was the same situation I found on my bike! The black rubber protection was touching the throttle cable lever. I rearranged the connectors inside the shroud and zip tied the whole package, now it clears the box. :thumb:

I think I will buy a MX "quick throttle" to accomodate the wrist twist, it seems the easiest and cheapest way to me.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Dec 13 2018 2:02pm

fechter wrote:
Dec 13 2018 12:17am
Offroader wrote:
Dec 12 2018 11:41pm
Would anyone happen to know what that silver device I circled in the picture is? It has 3 wires going to it, Black/Green/Red wire.

Is that the DC/DC converter?

If it is, does anyone know how many amps it is rated for?
Yes, that's the dc-dc converter. I couldn't find any marking on mine, but didn't remove it to look on the back side. Just from the size, I'd guess it can handle about 10A. Enough to run just about any kind of lights. The input comes from the key switch.
I could shine a light and see the backside without removing it and there were no markings.

This would be perfect if I could use this for my heated grips, I need about 5 amps for them. At the same time I don't want to kill the DC/Dc converter. I wonder it is has over current and over temperature protection on it. It looks kind of high tech so maybe it does.

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fechter   100 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by fechter » Dec 13 2018 3:14pm

Most of those style dc-dc converters have some kind of current limiting so should be hard to blow up. I'm not sure how much the headlight takes but that could be measured. I think 5A for grips should be OK, but no guarantee.

If it did blow up, here is a similar unit for about $20usd. Rated for 72v max input. 12v, 10A output.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Voltage-Reduce ... 0005.m1851

You could also just get one like this and use it separately just for the grips.
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Offroader   100 MW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Dec 13 2018 3:45pm

Yes I think you are right it is probably similar to the converter you posted.

Come to think of it since I removed the halls module I have the room to mount another DC/DC converter in that location. That was actually the issue I was having was that I couldn't find any location to mount something.

I do like the one you linked because it looks heavy duty with a nice large heat sink.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Thrice » Dec 13 2018 6:19pm

Got the surron on Tuesday, putting it to together was a snap. Battery was at 67% State of charge, comepelety not what I’m use to coming fom motorcycles, mine came in the street legal mode with the blue wiring cut. Just looking at it there is a lot I would do to change things. Front brake cable needs to be shorten, brake sensor I’m definitely removing. Might need to trim the bars some. Pegs seem to far forward (but have them in the middle position, still don’t think it will be enough. I will have to go over everything, took it for a spin, my views are still neutral at this point.
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Next to a KTM 500 EXC
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by macribs » Dec 13 2018 11:20pm

fechter wrote:
Dec 13 2018 10:17am
A Domino throttle should work fine but will need a couple of resistors to make the output in the same range as a hall. The microswitch is not really needed. Over a long time, these had a track record of wearing out.

There may be some decent quality hall effect twist throttles out there that would be another option. Most of them are not IP67 but can be potted with epoxy or silicone with a little bit of work so they can operate under water.

I've ridden motorcycles since before I could drive a car and I'm quite used to a regular twist throttle. I've tried thumb throttles but didn't like them. It's a personal preference thing.
Why not use the standard domino cable throttle and not the e-bike throttle? It comes in two versions. One normal and one "quick twist" version that has a shorter twist range.

The standard throttle is widely known for being a quality throttle, it is cheap, high quality and should work well with the sur ron cable-to-hall-signal-converter. You can easily find over the counter cables in almost any length for domino's and same with the cable endings. I think the last pair of domino's I got was like 15$. The grip was not included but still a great deal. I think the domino e-bike throttle is 5 times that prize.

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fechter   100 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by fechter » Dec 14 2018 12:11am

I didn't know they existed. Sounds like a good option. There are advantages to having the hall sensor in a pot box where it can't get smashed or wet so easily.

Can you post a link?
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by mbldc » Dec 14 2018 1:00am

macribs wrote:
Dec 13 2018 11:20pm
Why not use the standard domino cable throttle and not the e-bike throttle? It comes in two versions. One normal and one "quick twist" version that has a shorter twist range.
Agree, that seems the best solution for me now. "Quick" seems to be values below 2°/mm

http://www.domino-group.com/en/12-produ ... ntrol.html

With respect to the little total power the surron offers, you have to full twist it very often, which makes my wrist aching after a short time with the stock throttle

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by thoroughbred » Dec 14 2018 5:47am

Hi offroader, I'd like to buy your twist throttle even though you have me thinking more about a thumb throttle lately. I do remember my thumb tip getting very cold when riding with one in the winter.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Dec 14 2018 5:28pm

Very nice, just climbed the full 5 flights of stairs, or 100 steps in total, without stopping or touching the ground. Something I always dreamed about doing but never could with a hub drive bike.

These steps don't just go straight up, that would be easy, you have to make a very sharp turn to get to the next flight. So each flight after the first you have to have the wheel turned when climbing the next flight of stairs. Then you have to actually start turning the bike while on the stairs to get in the right position for the next flight. So for most of the time you are on the stairs you are turning the bike.

The Sur-Ron suspension really helps keep the rear wheel planted on the stairs so it almost feels like you are going up a steep hill and not going up bumpy stairs. This is exactly what suspension is suppose to do, keep the wheel making traction with the ground. A complete different feel then when climbing stairs with a hub motor which makes the rear wheel bounce all over the place.


In the picture below you can only see 2 of the 5 flights of stairs.
Image

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Dec 14 2018 5:38pm

One thing that happened today is that my shoe lace got caught in the chain and I had to back the back up to get it unstuck. I wasn't going too fast.

I wonder what would happen if I got it stuck in their at speed.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Tommm » Dec 14 2018 7:44pm

Offroader wrote:
Dec 14 2018 5:38pm
One thing that happened today is that my shoe lace got caught in the chain and I had to back the back up to get it unstuck. I wasn't going too fast.

I wonder what would happen if I got it stuck in their at speed.
Same thing with baggy pants. Tuck it in!

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Offroader   100 MW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Dec 15 2018 12:01pm

Just a heads up. The Sur-Ron doesn't have that great of clearance and I rode on top of a small rock. I didn't jump on the rock with the bike, I just road over it and my bike got stuck on top of it.

Just the weight of the bike and myself bent the bash guard up.

What surprised me was that the bash guard pushed into the bottom phase wire connector of the motor. The connector looks OK after I pried down the bash guard with pliers, but if you were to land a large jump and bottomed out on something, all that weight may be pushed right into that bottom connector. This may or may not break with that kind of force.

Because of this, if you are off-roading the bike you really have no choice but to upgrade the bash guard or you may very well damage the motor if you land on anything.

I still can not believe this bash guard is so weak as to bend up like that so easily.

Image

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by artisanstone » Dec 15 2018 1:06pm

The luna stainless one bent the same way on the first hit. I don't know what the solution is. I contemplated a foam pad between guard and motor, using motor as a structural member, but I don't know if that's a good idea.

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Offroader   100 MW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Dec 15 2018 1:18pm

OH OK good thing you mentioned that because I will avoid that one if it breaks so easily.

I guess the foam will be better than the bash guard pushing into the connectors, but the foam may also limit air flow which the motor needs.

I would think a couple of thick bars that run across, keeping it mostly open to save on weight. There is no reason to have the bash guard the same thickness steel through the whole guard.

The one thing I worry about is if the aluminum frame bolt holes that hold the bash guard will be able to take the forces of large hits.
Maybe we need to contact Luna Cycles to make a heavy duty bash guard option, or update theirs if it bends easily. But I don't want it to be so heavy either.


I had one of these bash guards on my other ebike which had no problem of landing hard hits on it all the time. Why can't something be made for the Sur-Ron that won't bend?
Image

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by mbldc » Dec 15 2018 1:47pm

mbldc wrote:
Dec 14 2018 1:00am
macribs wrote:
Dec 13 2018 11:20pm
Why not use the standard domino cable throttle and not the e-bike throttle? It comes in two versions. One normal and one "quick twist" version that has a shorter twist range.
Agree, that seems the best solution for me now. "Quick" seems to be values below 2°/mm

http://www.domino-group.com/en/12-produ ... ntrol.html

With respect to the little total power the surron offers, you have to full twist it very often, which makes my wrist aching after a short time with the stock throttle
Just installed the Domino Quickthrottle. Did not fit right out of the box: The throttle cable end was little to short for the domino, my solution was to dremel the internal end stop of the domino. Now it is thight with nearly no play, but thats ok.
Original full twist was about 60°, now it is 40°. Feels good. :D But has one disadvantage (which can not be prevented even with a ball bearing throttle): The wrist force got 1/3 higher because of the new lever ratio. :roll:

regards,

Marco

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by artisanstone » Dec 15 2018 2:26pm

Offroader wrote:
Dec 15 2018 1:18pm
OH OK good thing you mentioned that because I will avoid that one if it breaks so easily.

I guess the foam will be better than the bash guard pushing into the connectors, but the foam may also limit air flow which the motor needs.

I would think a couple of thick bars that run across, keeping it mostly open to save on weight. There is no reason to have the bash guard the same thickness steel through the whole guard.

The one thing I worry about is if the aluminum frame bolt holes that hold the bash guard will be able to take the forces of large hits.
Maybe we need to contact Luna Cycles to make a heavy duty bash guard option, or update theirs if it bends easily. But I don't want it to be so heavy either.


I had one of these bash guards on my other ebike which had no problem of landing hard hits on it all the time. Why can't something be made for the Sur-Ron that won't bend?
Image
The other thing that might work is if you look under the bike, there is a pretty substantial frame member right behind the guard. If the bottom of the guard was longer and lapped over (under) that it may be quite a bit stronger. Those mounting tabs are what bends...

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by fechter » Dec 15 2018 2:33pm

It might even work to take the stock plate and reinforce it with another aluminum plate that goes back to that frame member. Ideally done before it gets bent up. The stock skid plate is more of a splash guard and can't take much of a hit from an obstacle.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Dec 15 2018 6:12pm

fechter wrote:
Dec 15 2018 2:33pm
It might even work to take the stock plate and reinforce it with another aluminum plate that goes back to that frame member. Ideally done before it gets bent up. The stock skid plate is more of a splash guard and can't take much of a hit from an obstacle.
Maybe then it would make sense to just ask luna cycles to put reinforcements on their plate?, well I guess unless you can weld.

The other issue is that luna cycles uses the stock mounting clips as the stock bash guard, so that means they will have to keep the metal thin at the attachment points for the clips to fit. Luna cycles should ditch the clips, but then there may be the issue of everything lining up when screwing the bash guard back on.

In the picture I circled in red where the weak spot is on the luna bash guard, just like the stock one. The metal will just bend up at that location with any force applied to it. The whole thing needs to be redesigned or it will just push up into the motor and connectors when you hit anything.

I think at this point the best bash guard will be a carbon fiber bash guard. Those are strong and light weight.

Image

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