Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

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3DTOPO   1 kW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Dec 20 2018 9:13pm

matthepp wrote:
Dec 20 2018 1:41pm
Hi all,
I'm an avid mountain biker and have recently put a few years of moto riding under my belt, mostly technical singletrack. I just got a Sur Ron X from Luna last week. I have a few questions (sorry, I did my best as a noob to search for answers first):
1. Bike already covered in adobe mud. Is it okay per manufacturer/supplier to pressure wash this bike? If not, how to wash?
2. Has anyone installed a brake light? Can this be triggered via the rear brake cutoff switch?
3. I added a little switch on the cut green/black wire. This bumped my (200#) top speed from 40 kph all the way up to 43 kph. Is this all I should expect?
4. I have read varying reports about "wheelie popping power" to "detuned X controllers". While I like the bike already for trail riding, I would love way more torque. I plan to switch to the 60 tooth sprocket. What is the TRUTH about the available power/controllers?
5. I already smashed the crap out of the stock motor splash guard working on splats, etc. I got the Luna guard and I give it a week max before it's junk. Anyone out there producing our thinking about working on a real bash guard, something like the stuff that Flatland Racing puts out?
Thanks, Matt
1. I just use a garden hose with a nozzle. When you wash, make sure to take out the battery first. I suppose pressure washing would be OK, but I would use a wide angle nozzle.

2. People have installed brake lights. Search this thread for "Brake Light".

3. You should have much faster than 43 kph. Top speed depends if you have the FOC controller that has field weakening or not (and sprocket of course). Apparently, the new versions of the X Controller do not have field weakening (or regenerative breaks). With stock gearing and field weakening, you should get a top speed of 83km/h, without field weakening 72km/h.

4. I tried the 58T with the X Controller with field weakening and went back to the stock sprocket. It definitely had more low-speed torque, but it seems like it kind lags around 20 mph when punched, where with the 48T, punching it 20 mph seemed much more aggressive (with the X Controller too). At lower speeds, the 58T definitely rules. Since I could climb anything I needed (45 degree slopes) with the stock sprocket, I went back to the stock.
Last edited by 3DTOPO on Dec 20 2018 9:21pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by liveforphysics » Dec 20 2018 9:19pm

As someone whos had dirtbikes of sometype for 30 years, the bikes I power washed would have all the bearings and suspension bushings fail and random electronics and switching fail. The bikes I would then hose and scrub off would have all the bolts rust and still often fail suspension linkage seals from scrubbing and randomly connectors would fail from getting full of water. Then I started just taking a damp rag and wiping down my bikes and never hosing them, and everything stopped rusting and electronics stopped failing randomly. This is all gas dirtbikes not ebikes, but I don't see why it wouldn't be similar or even more benifical to wipe down your Sur Ron over hosing it.
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Dec 20 2018 10:07pm

Here is my take on washing the bike.

I read on a dirt bike post that the power washer may very well push a lot of stuff deep into the bike, like into the seals.

I think you are OK power washing certain parts if done carefully. You can certainly power was the front of the Sur-Ron controller as that is a pain in the ass to clean with all the grooves, its all solid aluminum on the front so no risk.

You can power wash the white fork legs, the seat, the tires, spokes,

The frame is aluminum, and some bolts are aluminum, but some bolts are also steel.

The electronics are secured well so its difficult for water to get into them.

I'm not sure if its OK to wash the rear shock but I run a hose on it to wash off the dirt. The rear suspension linkage I don't know if you want to power wash this as you will push the dirt deeper into the bearings.

After it is wet make sure to let it dry outside as long as you can and then put it someplace with decent air flow so the bike dries out and the water doesn't just sit on the bike and inside the screw holes. Water pooling will rust stuff, like if it gets pooled in the bolt/screw holes.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by liveforphysics » Dec 20 2018 11:32pm

While power washing those parts directly, other parts may be damaged by spray back, but it's your bike to do what you want. I moved to wiping with a damp rag and not cleaning whatever isn't practical to clean in a few minutes with a rag. This was by far the best longevity of dirtbikes strategy i found, you might find different for your locations temp/humidity/saltyness.
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Dec 20 2018 11:37pm

I've only rinsed mine off with a garden hose maybe 3 times since I have had in the last 7 months. I used a rag to dry it afterward.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by StingerRUS » Dec 21 2018 12:57am

Just got 60 tooth sprocket from lunacycle. I would not put this low quality part on my bike. Very disappointing...
Jist look at the stock sprocket to understand what surface roughness you should see on aftermarket sprockets. ImageImageImage

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by motomoto » Dec 21 2018 1:57am

It's exactly like my quality. I don't see a difference.
sprocket.jpg

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Dec 21 2018 2:07am

Image

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by madin88 » Dec 21 2018 3:32am

StingerRUS wrote:
Dec 21 2018 12:57am
Just got 60 tooth sprocket from lunacycle. I would not put this low quality part on my bike. Very disappointing...
Jist look at the stock sprocket to understand what surface roughness you should see on aftermarket sprockets.
I would be worried about the sharp edges of the teeth. There should be a slope on the sides to engage smooth into the chain.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Lelandjt » Dec 21 2018 7:00am

I see how to adjust belt tension but how do you determine what's correct?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by fechter » Dec 21 2018 9:53am

Lelandjt wrote:
Dec 21 2018 7:00am
I see how to adjust belt tension but how do you determine what's correct?
Good question. I researched the Gates belt web site for general information on how to tension timing belts. I'm still not sure, but all the information I saw indicates it takes quite a bit of tension. If the motor was swinging freely on the mount, you'd want at least 25-30 lbs force on the center line between sprockets. Seems like a lot.

If the tension is too low, the belt could skip or ride up on the teeth and cause premature wear.
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Rix » Dec 21 2018 10:43am

motomoto wrote:
Dec 21 2018 1:57am
It's exactly like my quality. I don't see a difference.sprocket.jpg
Motomotos pictures don't do his sprockets justice, when you hold one of his sprockets in your hand and see just how nice it is, its a on a different level, literally pretty enough to be jewelry, hell, I could wear it as a necklace.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Dec 21 2018 10:50am

motomoto wrote:
Dec 21 2018 1:57am
It's exactly like my quality. I don't see a difference.sprocket.jpg
I'm confused, are you saying your quality is the same as Luna Cycles or the sprocket posted in the picture above with all the rough surfaces?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by SlowCo » Dec 21 2018 11:04am

Offroader wrote:
Dec 21 2018 10:50am
motomoto wrote:
Dec 21 2018 1:57am
It's exactly like my quality. I don't see a difference.sprocket.jpg
I'm confused, are you saying your quality is the same as Luna Cycles or the sprocket posted in the picture above with all the rough surfaces?
I think he forgot this emoticon: :wink:

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by motomoto » Dec 21 2018 11:06am

I was being sarcastic. This is how much care goes into a Luna sprocket. Please disregard the food in the beard and the pajama bottoms.

Last edited by motomoto on Dec 21 2018 11:15am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Dec 21 2018 11:13am

liveforphysics wrote:
Dec 20 2018 11:32pm
While power washing those parts directly, other parts may be damaged by spray back, but it's your bike to do what you want. I moved to wiping with a damp rag and not cleaning whatever isn't practical to clean in a few minutes with a rag. This was by far the best longevity of dirtbikes strategy i found, you might find different for your locations temp/humidity/saltyness.
3DTOPO wrote:
Dec 20 2018 11:37pm
I've only rinsed mine off with a garden hose maybe 3 times since I have had in the last 7 months. I used a rag to dry it afterward.
I agree with you and never wash my bike, and just use a wet paper towel occasionally. I also really never take my bike out in the rain. I was just saying if you were determined to wash it to take some precautions.

I did hose mine down lightly after riding through salt water that got sprayed over everything because I have no fenders. Salt water is probably the worst thing to get on your bike and its worth washing everything down with a hose to get it off. I really didn't like the idea of having to hose it down, especially in the winter when it will not dry fast.

I believe I read where when salt water dries it will leave salt deposits which will attract moisture from the air or something which can cause rust.

This is just my opinion and I could be completely wrong but I don't think washing the Sur-Ron is as dangerous as say a steel framed motorcycle. I had a couple of motorcycles and they would rust easily on many parts, especially if left outside, so I know exactly what you are talking about when you said you had issues washing down your dirt bike.
The Sur-Ron is mostly aluminum and like an aluminum mountain bike shouldn't have issues with rust. The Sur-Ron has a potted controller and battery, the connectors are well protected with both water proof connectors and heat shrink. The Sur-Ron chain is gold coated, which I know from my bicycle chains that those gold colored chains resist corrosion so much better than normal chains, huge difference and I never lube my gold chains. The suspension components, wheels, are pretty much corrosion proof.

After getting my bike covered in salt water from the salted streets I thought a lot of parts would show rust, especially the steel bolts, but after a couple of days they didn't.

That being said, you are better off not washing it of course and just wiping it down with a rag, but if you had to wash it, it should not be so bad because the bike is mostly aluminum with aluminum bicycle components, and well protected electrical connections. Just be cautions about spraying high pressure water near bearings or seals, like the suspension pivots and wheel bearings.

I would try to leave the bike out doors as long as you can to let it dry and move it around and lean it to its sides, wheelie it, to get the water to flow out of the bolt holes and dry better.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Allex » Dec 21 2018 6:19pm

StingerRUS wrote:
Dec 21 2018 12:57am
Just got 60 tooth sprocket from lunacycle. I would not put this low quality part on my bike. Very disappointing...
Jist look at the stock sprocket to understand what surface roughness you should see on aftermarket sprockets. ImageImageImage

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
Its not just the roughness but the tooth profile seem to be totally wrong, which is more important. This kind of profile you would get after riding a lot of miles, sooo it is already wared out before you even get to use it. Pity.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by motomoto » Dec 21 2018 8:56pm

I calculate my tooth profiles from the machinery handbook. I've been doing it for years and never a problem.
It's quite a bit of calculating but I am used to it. I wish I had a program that did it all.

On the Bafang sprockets, I did my own tooth profiles because I heard there was a problem with chains falling off so
I did a long tooth version that I later shortened. Some things need to be right like the pitch diameter and the roller
pocket diameter. When doing laser cut sprockets you need to measure everything because there are so many variables.
Machined sprockets need to be checked also but are more accurate.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by DanGT86 » Dec 22 2018 12:09am

Moto, have you tried the sprocket generator in MasterCam?

Just going from memory here but I think you plug in roller dia, pitch, and number of teeth and it generates a sprocket. I did notice the generated sprocket root radius is larger than the roller dia. i gave it so its building in some standard tolerance but I haven't checked it against ansi standard formulas. The teeth also look visually pointy compared to most purchased sprockets i've seen.

It might be an easier starting point if you currently use Mastercam at your shop.

I'm kinda freaked out by laser cut sprockets myself because of the crispy slag thats on the edge of laser cut steel. I cant stand the thought of running it against another piece of metal unless the sprocket is aluminum or another material thats way softer than the chain. Then again I'm picky about almost every surface finish so I never get anything done quickly. Guess its a machinist curse to obsess over manufacturing details then go ride through mud and sand.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by motomoto » Dec 22 2018 1:46am

No I haven't. I am learning Fusion 360 for all of my creating. There is probably something in there.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by DanGT86 » Dec 22 2018 10:07am

I would think Fusion has a sprocket generator as well. This online calculator will generate DXF files you can open in other cad systems based on chain specs. I don't think it builds in any clearance though.
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I'm in the same boat trying to learn fusion 360 at the moment. I have access to 10s of thousands of dollars worth of Mastercam and Solid works software at work but I can't use any of it from home. Designing and programming takes so much longer than the actual machining process that its hard to find the time to stay late at work for bike projects that are all at my house.

Fusion is the most powerful thing available for me at home. My buddy has done some 3d mold pocket profile milling from fusion so I know its very capable for 3D milling operations. As far as I know it doesn't support 5axis CAM yet but that's not really limiting for making most things.

Sorry to hijack the thread here talking about CAM software. Since you make parts for these bikes I figured its not too far off topic. :thumb:

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by artisanstone » Dec 22 2018 10:30am

Any opinions on this setup?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vn6KZPyvOZ4

It would be awesome if someone put together a plugnplay version of this. lipos in a surron battery case, fully programmed controller, etc. It looks to me like the right amount of power without going too far.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Dec 22 2018 5:33pm

I'm trying to mount a rear fender to the rear swing arm where the frame is threaded with M5. I read where you should not use stainless or metal screws/bolts with aluminum

Does this mean I should get aluminum bolts?

The Sur-Ron does have a bolt holding the brake line and its slightly magnetic, so I assume its probably a stainless bolt?

I'm sure its probably not that big of a deal but just wondering what the proper screw material would be?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » Dec 22 2018 5:40pm

Offroader wrote:
Dec 22 2018 5:33pm
I'm trying to mount a rear fender to the rear swing arm where the frame is threaded with M5. I read where you should not use stainless or metal screws/bolts with aluminum

Does this mean I should get aluminum bolts?

The Sur-Ron does have a bolt holding the brake line and its slightly magnetic, so I assume its probably a stainless bolt?

I'm sure its probably not that big of a deal but just wondering what the proper screw material would be?
stainless should be fine as long as its not a heavy load bearing bolt such as foot pegs, seat strut, etc.. my local hardware store has steel, stainless and chrome hardware in stock most common sizes.. if your concerned with possible galvanic corrosion, use anti-seeze on the threads..
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Grantmac » Dec 22 2018 8:37pm

Stainless steel will cause the aluminum to corrode far faster than plated steel will. You could use plastic bolts for something that light.
Better than anti-seize is something called Tef-gel. But if you use anti-seize use nickel, not copper.

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