Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

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Chilli P   10 µW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Chilli P » Dec 24 2018 9:52pm

Grantmac wrote:
Dec 24 2018 7:38pm
The only way I'd be able to ride one is to buy one and based on the reviews I'm far more likely to build a hotter mid-drive. It just doesn't perform well enough to replace my motorcycle and isn't able to go where I take my mid-drive.

6-8kw in a 110# package would be fun if the throttle delivery was punchy.
So far with no modifications this bike has gone anywhere and climbed anything I would with my mx bikes. Buy your mid drive by all means but don't think this bike isn't capable, it very certainly is. Also can pull wicked fun wheelies even around 25kph. I weigh 75kg and if performs great with me onboard.
https://youtu.be/zYQHE1xngWY

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Dec 24 2018 10:19pm

I must say that when I first got the Sur-Ron I made quite a few posts about how underwhelming and weak the power is when comparing it to my 8KW bike. I complained about the bike not being able to lift the front wheel, lacking in acceleration, etc.

The bike really is under powered, so I can agree with the people who say it needs more power.

If the power was simply increased to 8KW, with increased phase amps and more aggressive controller timings, this bike would be a monster. It really doesn't need that much to be much more powerful. This will come with a battery and controller upgrade, and there will be many options available in the future.

at 7KW I was able to wheelie my cromotor at 30MPH meaning it had enough power to lift the front wheel up at high speeds, the Sur-Ron can't even lift the front wheel up at 5MPH. There is simply no power in the Sur-Ron.

With all that being said the Sur-Ron is still capable of climbing anything, including steep stairs. It still has OK acceleration and top speed. It isn't so bad. It simply is just not a monster like my 8KW hub motor bike is. When the Sur-Ron does get a better controller, being that it is a mid-drive, it will really be a monster with unreal torque at low speeds. Getting to 8KW or even 12KW, is such an easy upgrade that we will all have in the future, the bike will be deadly.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Dec 24 2018 10:23pm

Offroader wrote:
Dec 24 2018 10:19pm
at 7KW I was able to wheelie my cromotor at 30MPH meaning it had enough power to lift the front wheel up at high speeds, the Sur-Ron can't even lift the front wheel up at 5MPH. There is simply no power in the Sur-Ron.
Seems like something must be wrong. Even before I got the FOC X Controller it was possible to lift the wheel up at 5MPH.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Dec 24 2018 10:31pm

If I punch the throttle at about 2mph, basically almost stopped, it will very slightly lift the front up. I think they de-tuned the x-controllers so they lack torque. I think this because I have seen some youtube videos of other Sur-Rons that seemed to lift the front up more easily.

The first batch of X-controllers were much better, but the ones that come with the X bikes are real crap.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Dec 24 2018 10:36pm

Offroader wrote:
Dec 24 2018 10:31pm
If I punch the throttle at about 2mph, basically almost stopped, it will very slightly lift the front up. I think they de-tuned the x-controllers so they lack torque. I think this because I have seen some youtube videos of other Sur-Rons that seemed to lift the front up more easily.

The first batch of X-controllers were much better, but the ones that come with the X bikes are real crap.
Man, that sucks! Pretty much (even according to Luna) the whole point of the X model was the FOC controller with 20% more torque and top end (not to mention regen). They should be ashamed to call it the X Model with a controller performing even more poorly than the "regular" model.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Tommm » Dec 24 2018 11:07pm

3DTOPO wrote:
Dec 24 2018 10:36pm
Offroader wrote:
Dec 24 2018 10:31pm
If I punch the throttle at about 2mph, basically almost stopped, it will very slightly lift the front up. I think they de-tuned the x-controllers so they lack torque. I think this because I have seen some youtube videos of other Sur-Rons that seemed to lift the front up more easily.

The first batch of X-controllers were much better, but the ones that come with the X bikes are real crap.
Man, that sucks! Pretty much (even according to Luna) the whole point of the X model was the FOC controller with 20% more torque and top end (not to mention regen). They should be ashamed to call it the X Model with a controller performing even more poorly than the "regular" model.
The bike does NOT do 6kw peak. It is simply not true.
It has been publicized the stock controller was 60v x 70a = 4200w, with the X FOC controller being 60v x 80a = 4800w peak. This was also measured with an amp meter.
The ~15-20% more torque comes from the added amps and the more efficient controller. If the regular bike was 6kw as it was advertised, the FOC must of made it 7500w. But the new model isn't advertised as 7.5kw. You don't magically get 20% more power switching to a FOC controller, the difference is 3-5%.

With a 6kw bike this small you should easily pull wheelies at running speed ~10-15mph.

The controller when opened has a silly amount of FETs, 20+. It should easily do 8kw, same with motor. It gives the impression the whole bike was built with 30Q cells in mind for 6kw nominal 9kw peak, then get they made the decision to use cheaper PF cells so they dialed the power back. But even the PF cells should handle 6kw peak.

So the whole system is ripe for some research into how you would shunt it for 20-25% free extra power.
Last edited by Tommm on Dec 24 2018 11:15pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Dec 24 2018 11:13pm

Tommm wrote:
Dec 24 2018 11:07pm
3DTOPO wrote:
Dec 24 2018 10:36pm
Offroader wrote:
Dec 24 2018 10:31pm
If I punch the throttle at about 2mph, basically almost stopped, it will very slightly lift the front up. I think they de-tuned the x-controllers so they lack torque. I think this because I have seen some youtube videos of other Sur-Rons that seemed to lift the front up more easily.

The first batch of X-controllers were much better, but the ones that come with the X bikes are real crap.
Man, that sucks! Pretty much (even according to Luna) the whole point of the X model was the FOC controller with 20% more torque and top end (not to mention regen). They should be ashamed to call it the X Model with a controller performing even more poorly than the "regular" model.
The bike does NOT do 6kw. It is simply not true.
It has been publicized the stock controller was 60v x 70a = 4200w, with the X FOC controller being 60v x 80a = 4800w. This was also measured with an amp meter.
The ~15-20% more torque comes from the added amps and the more efficient controller. If the regular bike was 6kw as it was advertised, the FOC must of made it 7500w. But the new model isn't advertised as 7.5kw. You don't magically get 20% more power switching to a FOC controller, the difference is 3-5%.

With a 6kw bike this small you should easily pull wheelies at running speed ~10-15mph.
I was under the impression the baseline is 3-4KW with peak 6KW (eg only for short bursts).

I was also under the impression that the FOC controller got its 20% boost primarily from field-weakening.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Tommm » Dec 24 2018 11:21pm

3DTOPO wrote:
Dec 24 2018 11:13pm
I was under the impression the baseline is 3-4KW with peak 6KW (eg only for short bursts).

I was also under the impression that the FOC controller got its 20% boost primarily from field-weakening.
You can see Justin's measurements, he used a dyno pad. The typical difference between square and FOC is 3-5% in both power and efficiency.

Image
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 66#p981766

I think this is actually a good thing because it means the bikes have even more hidden power that can be unlocked some day.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Dec 24 2018 11:28pm

3DTOPO wrote:
Dec 24 2018 10:36pm
Offroader wrote:
Dec 24 2018 10:31pm
If I punch the throttle at about 2mph, basically almost stopped, it will very slightly lift the front up. I think they de-tuned the x-controllers so they lack torque. I think this because I have seen some youtube videos of other Sur-Rons that seemed to lift the front up more easily.

The first batch of X-controllers were much better, but the ones that come with the X bikes are real crap.
Man, that sucks! Pretty much (even according to Luna) the whole point of the X model was the FOC controller with 20% more torque and top end (not to mention regen). They should be ashamed to call it the X Model with a controller performing even more poorly than the "regular" model.
Yeah I read Luna supposedly removed from their store page that the X bike had regen. At least Luna lowered the price on the X model, since both versions are similar in power.
Tommm wrote:
Dec 24 2018 11:07pm
3DTOPO wrote:
Dec 24 2018 10:36pm
Offroader wrote:
Dec 24 2018 10:31pm
If I punch the throttle at about 2mph, basically almost stopped, it will very slightly lift the front up. I think they de-tuned the x-controllers so they lack torque. I think this because I have seen some youtube videos of other Sur-Rons that seemed to lift the front up more easily.

The first batch of X-controllers were much better, but the ones that come with the X bikes are real crap.
Man, that sucks! Pretty much (even according to Luna) the whole point of the X model was the FOC controller with 20% more torque and top end (not to mention regen). They should be ashamed to call it the X Model with a controller performing even more poorly than the "regular" model.
The bike does NOT do 6kw peak. It is simply not true.
It has been publicized the stock controller was 60v x 70a = 4200w, with the X FOC controller being 60v x 80a = 4800w peak. This was also measured with an amp meter.
The ~15-20% more torque comes from the added amps and the more efficient controller. If the regular bike was 6kw as it was advertised, the FOC must of made it 7500w. But the new model isn't advertised as 7.5kw. You don't magically get 20% more power switching to a FOC controller, the difference is 3-5%.

With a 6kw bike this small you should easily pull wheelies at running speed ~10-15mph.

The controller when opened has a silly amount of FETs, 20+. It should easily do 8kw, same with motor. It gives the impression the whole bike was built with 30Q cells in mind for 6kw nominal 9kw peak, then get they made the decision to use cheaper PF cells so they dialed the power back. But even the PF cells should handle 6kw peak.
My X-bike got 78 amps at 60 volt. However, It seems that they tuned the X-controllers so they are similar in power to the original controllers even though they may have more peak amps.

Here is what someone wrote who ordered the new X-controller.
I ordered the X controller and on the website it said regenerative braking, 20% more torq, smoother ,quieter. So I put it on my bike and it is identical to the original controller. So I emailed lun a cycle and they tell me that the X controllers are programmed that way , it must be the new way they’re doing it. That does not make any sense to me and if so is false advertisement.

I think Sur-Ron limits the phase amps on their controllers and have the phase amps set the same on both the X controller and the non X controller. You see its not all about peak amps, a lot has to do with phase amps.

I remember when I went from the Lyen 18fet controller to the Max-E. The one thing I complained about the Max-E what that the Max-E had very weak low power acceleration, even though the Max-E had much more peak (battery) amps and wattage. The Max-E limited the phase amps while the Lyen 18fet had no limit. The Max-E had better mid and high speed acceleration, but the Lyen 18fet had much better low speed acceleration. The reason for the limits in the Max-E phase amps was that they didn't want warranty issues.

I lost a lot of fun with the lower phase amps of the Max-E. More phase amps = more fun.

Sur-Ron definitely has the phase amps limited on their controllers, and phase amps is really important for torque at low speeds, so stuff like lifting up the wheel, or jolting the bike forward from a stop, this is all limited in a big way.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Tommm » Dec 24 2018 11:43pm

Offroader wrote:
Dec 24 2018 11:28pm

Sur-Ron definitely has the phase amps limited on their controllers, and phase amps is really important for torque at low speeds, so stuff like lifting up the wheel, or jolting the bike forward from a stop, this is all limited in a big way.
Any idea why they are doing it? The sur ron controller is massive, there shouldn't be any reason for it.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by fechter » Dec 25 2018 12:00am

Tommm wrote:
Dec 24 2018 11:43pm
Any idea why they are doing it? The sur ron controller is massive, there shouldn't be any reason for it.
It's the battery.

It can't really dish out more than what they have it set to without overheating. If the pack had better cells, the controller and motor could be run a LOT harder without overheating issues.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Dec 25 2018 12:21am

Tommm wrote:
Dec 24 2018 11:21pm
3DTOPO wrote:
Dec 24 2018 11:13pm
I was under the impression the baseline is 3-4KW with peak 6KW (eg only for short bursts).

I was also under the impression that the FOC controller got its 20% boost primarily from field-weakening.
You can see Justin's measurements, he used a dyno pad. The typical difference between square and FOC is 3-5% in both power and efficiency.
Is that the original X Controller (with regen) or the new X Controller?

Because with the original X Controller (at least) the top speed was definitely 20% faster, and it definitely feels ~20% more powerful. I don't think I would have noticed if it was only an increase of 3-5%.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Grantmac » Dec 25 2018 1:17am

I can ride my mid-drive to work in bike lanes and no cops will care. But with the Sur-Ron I can't use the lanes and it's too slow to be in traffic.
I can ride a variety of single track on my way home with the mid-drive which is forbidden to motorcycles.

The Sur-Ron might climb like an MX bike, but MX bikes just don't work around here. It's too steep and tight. Most guys are on XC or Trials bikes and even then can't ride some lines.

It's too expensive to not be a lot better out of the box.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Dec 25 2018 1:23am

Grantmac wrote:
Dec 25 2018 1:17am
It's too expensive to not be a lot better out of the box.
You get what you pay for. Buy an Alta or Zero.

For the money, I think the Sur Ron is unbeatable - what even comes close?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Grantmac » Dec 25 2018 2:56am

3DTOPO wrote:
Dec 25 2018 1:23am
You get what you pay for. Buy an Alta or Zero.

For the money, I think the Sur Ron is unbeatable - what even comes close?
A used trials bike is almost as silent, almost as light, twice as fast, twice the range and just as street legal.

If they had cut just a little profit to deliver an honest 8kw bike my opinion would be different. I'm sure hotrodded Sur-Rons will be capable of doing lower performance motorcycle type stuff similar to a CRF230/playbike kind of role.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Dec 25 2018 3:04am

Grantmac wrote:
Dec 25 2018 2:56am
3DTOPO wrote:
Dec 25 2018 1:23am
You get what you pay for. Buy an Alta or Zero.

For the money, I think the Sur Ron is unbeatable - what even comes close?
A used trials bike is almost as silent, almost as light, twice as fast, twice the range and just as street legal.
I meant electric. Death to ICE.
Grantmac wrote:
Dec 25 2018 2:56am
If they had cut just a little profit to deliver an honest 8kw bike my opinion would be different. I'm sure hotrodded Sur-Rons will be capable of doing lower performance motorcycle type stuff similar to a CRF230/playbike kind of role.
There isn't anything even close to a Sur Ron at its price point - its already an absolutely incredible value compared to every e-alternative that I know of. You can't list a single one either - and I don't count ICE as alternatives.

For a modest investment, you can make it run at 8KW. Nothing is stopping you.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Tommm » Dec 25 2018 9:31am

3DTOPO wrote:
Dec 25 2018 12:21am

Is that the original X Controller (with regen) or the new X Controller?

Because with the original X Controller (at least) the top speed was definitely 20% faster, and it definitely feels ~20% more powerful. I don't think I would have noticed if it was only an increase of 3-5%.
The test is a generic square wave vs generic FOC controller using the same amps. For the sur ron, of course it feels more powerful, they also raised the amp limit by ~13% in the FOC version. (Though people write here they might have reduced it for new bikes made since.)

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Dec 25 2018 10:20am

Tomm, I have the new X-Controller that doesn't have regen. My peak amps are 78 amps. I don't think they limited peak amps on the new X controllers if 78 amps is more than the original square wave controllers. But peak amps is not everything as I learned from my Max-E. For example, Max-E uses battery amps and phase amps, and they limit the phase amps at a very low number.


If you guys live in an area where you can ride around with a gas dirtbike, then you are better off using gas over electric at this point in time. If you live someplace where you can't use gas then the Sur-Ron is the best alternative.

You also can get larger sized electric dirt bikes like Rix bought, this would be more comparable to 125cc dirt bikes as they are probably similar in weight.

You have to remember the Sur-Ron is 110lbs while the smallest dirtbikes are close to 200 lbs. That extra weight allows for much beefed up suspension components, the fork alone in 125cc dirt bikes is probably 2-3x heavier.

You really shouldn't be comparing 200lbs dirt bikes to 110 lbs Ebicyles that use bicycles suspension components.

The Sur-Ron has its advantages in that it allows you to easily lift the bike and carry it over things. The Sur-Ron is also more than capable of doing most things, it is worlds ahead of a hub motored ebike. Lets not forget the biggest reason for using electric is that in most places you simply can't get away with driving around with gas.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Grantmac » Dec 25 2018 1:10pm

I take the best tool for the job and don't really care what powers it. So yeah, I'll definitely compare ICE to electric directly when I can use either one. Around here you'd be just as legal with a Sur-Ron or motorcycle. The only way electric has more access is if it can pass for a bicycle.

A trials bike is ~140lbs with way more durable components and will cross any obstacle you could throw 110lbs across.

I'd be stoked to have the lower maintenance and noise of an electric, but I think people like me who are used to motorcycles will be terribly disappointed in the power of the Sur-Ron. It shouldn't need warranty voiding mods just to keep up with a kids bike.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by motomoto » Dec 25 2018 1:30pm

I have been looking at what ERT has been doing and 6.5 kWs is about right for the Sur-ron motor. We got 7770 watts of mechanical power out of the motor on my visit to ASI at 60 volts. An interesting note is that we got 30 ft/lbs of torque out of the motor where a 250cc motocross bike makes only about 20 ft/lbs of torque.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by artisanstone » Dec 25 2018 2:53pm

Grantmac wrote:
Dec 25 2018 1:10pm
I take the best tool for the job and don't really care what powers it. So yeah, I'll definitely compare ICE to electric directly when I can use either one. Around here you'd be just as legal with a Sur-Ron or motorcycle. The only way electric has more access is if it can pass for a bicycle.

A trials bike is ~140lbs with way more durable components and will cross any obstacle you could throw 110lbs across.

I'd be stoked to have the lower maintenance and noise of an electric, but I think people like me who are used to motorcycles will be terribly disappointed in the power of the Sur-Ron. It shouldn't need warranty voiding mods just to keep up with a kids bike.
Grant, I moved to the Sur-Ron from a Beta 250 (late 90's model). I wouldn't say it's for everyone, but for my needs it fits the bill and I don't ever have to worry about finicky starting. My neighbor has the Beta now and we ride together. There are certain areas where each bike prevails. Just a little input. Trials bikes are sweet and so is the Sur-Ron.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by madin88 » Dec 25 2018 3:02pm

motomoto wrote:
Dec 25 2018 1:30pm
I have been looking at what ERT has been doing and 6.5 kWs is about right for the Sur-ron motor. We got 7770 watts of mechanical power out of the motor on my visit to ASI at 60 volts. An interesting note is that we got 30 ft/lbs of torque out of the motor where a 250cc motocross bike makes only about 20 ft/lbs of torque.
30ft/lbs at which motor current? And what about other motor parameters like winding resistance, kV etc?
I wonder that nobody here has measured Surron motor yet, whereas it would tell us so much about the potential for hot rodding.
It looks like most are happy as it is at stock and only ride around with it :D

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Rix » Dec 25 2018 3:33pm

motomoto wrote:
Dec 25 2018 1:30pm
I have been looking at what ERT has been doing and 6.5 kWs is about right for the Sur-ron motor. We got 7770 watts of mechanical power out of the motor on my visit to ASI at 60 volts. An interesting note is that we got 30 ft/lbs of torque out of the motor where a 250cc motocross bike makes only about 20 ft/lbs of torque.
This is getting me excited.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by motomoto » Dec 25 2018 8:32pm

I paid for a bike on November 26th
luna order.png
I got this email a few hours ago after asking for a month about where is my bike, it hasn't shipped.
Gary replied:
Hi Kim, unfortunately the shop has declined to fill your order and will be fully refunding instead.

You’ll see refund notification email soon as it posts, within couple business days.

Sorry for the inconvenience, I assume their decision stems from previous soured business dealings but it’s not something I have much firsthand knowledge of.


-Gary
Luna CS Mgr.
Pretty chicken sh#@ in my book. Just tell me what the plan is. I understand Eric is mad that I tried to get the Sur-ron deal
for 2019. The Factory told me that Luna is the importer for 2019. Congratulations to them. I hope everyone gets good service.
I know I won't, but it's ok. I have lot's of fun projects to do this year. I am starting a new shop separate from the job shop I
have owned for 30 years. I'm excited. I will make a kit for the Sur-ron that will double the stock power as well as other
go fast stuff. Can't wait for a real Sur-ron World Championship race. I will be there, kicking ass.

The Sur-ron import deal would have bogged down my life with customer support, when what I truly have to offer the world
is my creativity, and ability to make those things, and offer them to others for their gain.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Dec 25 2018 9:24pm

Tommm wrote:
Dec 25 2018 9:31am
The test is a generic square wave vs generic FOC controller using the same amps. For the sur ron, of course it feels more powerful, they also raised the amp limit by ~13% in the FOC version. (Though people write here they might have reduced it for new bikes made since.)
I thought you were trying to say that the X Controller was only 3-5% more powerful than the square wave controller.

Offroader wrote:
Dec 25 2018 10:20am
If you guys live in an area where you can ride around with a gas dirtbike, then you are better off using gas over electric at this point in time. If you live someplace where you can't use gas then the Sur-Ron is the best alternative.
Sorry, but I don’t agree at all. What is best for one person is not necessarily for another.

I live a 10-minute drive from a town of 300. I could easily ride a super loud gas beast around here. But that is not at all what I want. The roads/trails are so twisty and rough around here that I can already go way faster than anyone should. There really is no benefit to going to a significantly more powerful machine. I can keep up with pretty much anything in these conditions. The tight turns, loose packs, dips, and bumps, etc. makes it pointless to be in a different class than the Sur Ron. In other words, the Sur Ron is pretty much ideally suited for what I have available to ride.

What is the benefit of a smelly, polluting, noisy, heavier ICE? I see none. With the Sur Ron, I am way less likely to break an ankle, more nimble and playful, maintenance is practically non-existent, I don’t have to buy gas, it is much less expensive to run, it is emissions-free, practically silent compared to an ICE so it causes minimal disturbance to the wildlife (not to mention much more pleasurable). And it can keep up with any practically any alternatives.


Grantmac wrote:
Dec 25 2018 1:10pm
So yeah, I'll definitely compare ICE to electric directly when I can use either one.
You’re completely missing the point of why I asked what comparable alternatives are instead you resort to comparing a new electric bike to a used ICE bike. Not even apples to oranges.

You seemed to think that Sur Ron was being greedy by not offering an 8KW bike for the same price as the 4KW bike they sell. If they did offer an 8KW version for the same price, they likely wouldn’t be making anything, in which case, what is the point of being in business?

I would guess in 3-5 years from now, an 8KW version will be available at about the same point. But today for electric, it’s pretty much state of the art for the money.

Grantmac wrote:
Dec 25 2018 1:10pm
Around here you'd be just as legal with a Sur-Ron or motorcycle. The only way electric has more access is if it can pass for a bicycle.
Are you sure about that? What country do you live in? It seems in most places it is considered a moped in EP mode even without pedals. In much of the USA, mopeds don’t need registration and can ride in bike lanes.
Grantmac wrote:
Dec 25 2018 1:10pm
I think people like me who are used to motorcycles will be terribly disappointed in the power of the Sur-Ron.
I disagree. Again, from someone who grew up riding said after his first ride that he would gladly sell his 250cc bike to get a Sur Ron. I think without having actually ridden it, you really have no idea what you are talking about.

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