Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.
Tommm   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 718
Joined: Apr 03 2018 2:32am

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Tommm » Mar 19 2019 7:09am

stonezone wrote:
Mar 19 2019 4:03am
Regen is touchy with the stock pack, I’ve pulled 40a down a steep hill with regen cranked up, that’s fine for my pack but something over 5a and the stock pack needs to be power cycled.
Very interesting, so the bms shuts off when the recharge is too strong? How does it work with the X bike that has regen itself?

User avatar
fechter   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 14638
Joined: Dec 31 2006 3:23pm
Location: California Bay Area, USA

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by fechter » Mar 19 2019 7:46am

Offroader wrote:
Mar 18 2019 9:29pm
Are there draw backs for going with too big of a controller, like the 8000?
Other than cost and fit, since the current limits are programmable, I don't see any issues. A 8000 should behave exactly like a 4000 if it has the same current limits dialed in. You can just set the phase amps a lot higher with an 8000.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

User avatar
Offroader   10 MW

10 MW
Posts: 2486
Joined: Sep 08 2013 9:03pm
Location: USA

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Mar 19 2019 9:02am

Agreed, We will have to figure out if we really need more phase amps than the 4000 can offer. I would think a mid drive may be too powerful off the line and you wouldn't want too many phase amps, this is unlike a direct drive hub motor where you don't have any gearing like a mid drive.

If there is no differences or losses with the 8000 over the 4000, then we may want to figure out the phase amp limits on both controllers and see if we will ever want to increase them over what the 4000 offers. The 8000 version seems to cost $200 more so its not something I would want to pay if I will never use the extra power.

With the bMS
Tommm wrote:
Mar 19 2019 7:09am
stonezone wrote:
Mar 19 2019 4:03am
Regen is touchy with the stock pack, I’ve pulled 40a down a steep hill with regen cranked up, that’s fine for my pack but something over 5a and the stock pack needs to be power cycled.
Very interesting, so the bms shuts off when the recharge is too strong? How does it work with the X bike that has regen itself?
They mentioned on the link to the 4000 controller that the regen needs to be limited at higher charges.

Can fully utilize regen (Sur Ron BMS will cut at full charge, however ERT has found a solution for this by limiting regen power at full charge and gradually increasing then restoring full regen power at battery % reaches 95%.

What I think is happening is people are using regen at full charge and the battery BMS is hitting the high voltage cut off. This is very easy to happen at full charge when you spike the voltage during regen as it can easily climb to 4.2 volts to 4.3 volts for example.

The issue here is most of us on our self built hub motor bikes usually charge to 90%, like 4.10 volts. Since we can't control the charge voltage with the sur ron we are charging to almost 4.2 volts, so the voltage cut-off is easily hit at that voltage.

You can also use a regen switch and not use regen until you ride the bike a short distance to bring down the voltage.

evolutiongts   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 777
Joined: Dec 31 2013 5:13pm
Location: Alhambra, CA

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by evolutiongts » Mar 20 2019 4:01am

It depends, I’m running the BAC4000. With 20S 11.5KW cap, I’m getting ~330A peak phase and ~175A peak battery. This is plenty of power for most people, very torquey and plenty of top end pull. Motor barely gets warm.

Stock battery can really only sustain 85A battery and 175A peak phase, the BAC2000 (not released yet) would be more appropriate for those sticking with the stock battery. BAC4000 would give you room for growth. If you are looking to squeeze every bit of power, No doubt the BAC8000 would give you higher peak numbers but this is only a 6.8kg motor, no guarantee it will survive higher power output.
Attachments
637977D9-2CB8-4F73-A300-E46592A966B7.png
67A99CD6-5B66-4694-90D6-F648294D1ADB.jpeg
http://www.electricrt.com
Electric Race Technologies

Schwinn 405 2WD Track Bike 18KW
EDGE 1500W Hub / MXUS 3K Turbo
ASI BAC 2000 / BAC 4000 Bluetooth
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=93079

10Kw KMX death trike
MUXUS 3K Turbo
Sabvoton 72V150A
Moto Wheels all around
Front Suspension Kit
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=83423

Giant Trance 4 Full Suspension
Cyclone 3000W
74V 3000W
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=59005

User avatar
Offroader   10 MW

10 MW
Posts: 2486
Joined: Sep 08 2013 9:03pm
Location: USA

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Mar 20 2019 9:17am

evolutiongts ,

May I ask you with the BAC 4000 and 330A phase amps. Are you able to easily wheelie the bike without pulling the front of the bike up?

What about at 20 - 25MPH,, is that enough power to lift the front of the bike up to wheelie without pulling the wheel up?

With my Max-E and cromotor, my bike will easily wheelie, even at 25-30 MPH I believe I can wheelie the bike at those high speeds.

The stock Sur-Run, you can forget about wheeling the bike unless you are skilled enough to pull the front wheel up, at speed I think it may be impossible.

User avatar
fechter   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 14638
Joined: Dec 31 2006 3:23pm
Location: California Bay Area, USA

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by fechter » Mar 20 2019 9:22am

Offroader wrote:
Mar 20 2019 9:17am

The stock Sur-Run, you can forget about wheeling the bike unless you are skilled enough to pull the front wheel up, at speed I think it may be impossible.
Part of that is from the slow ramp up of the stock controller. Something that ramps up faster would make wheelies easier.

With the stock trapezoidal controller, if you hold the brake, give it full throttle, then release the brake, it does a wheelie very easily. Somehow this bypasses the ramp up when you release the brake.

With an ASI, you can adjust the ramp up speed.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

User avatar
3DTOPO   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 383
Joined: Apr 11 2018 2:21am

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Mar 23 2019 12:22am

Honda, finally, at last, has entered the EV game:

https://electrek.co/2019/03/22/honda-el ... e-scooter/

User avatar
Allex   1 GW

1 GW
Posts: 3230
Joined: Dec 05 2011 8:46am
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Allex » Mar 23 2019 12:10pm

Allex wrote:
Mar 13 2019 5:40pm
Mmm too bad that I cannot test the bike outdoors just yet, but here is a inhouse run for you!
I totally love it and I would not manage this without Madin, thank you man!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pz4yXvuMhXo

Created a sale thread for those who are interested in this Kit, you can find more info and a manual:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 31&t=99248

bionicon   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 329
Joined: Jun 28 2015 2:29pm
Location: Belgium

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by bionicon » Mar 24 2019 5:45am

I am looking for a rear shock thats about 2 inches longer that will fit the surron. I have a 26" front bicycle wheel and want the geometrie back :D .

User avatar
fechter   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 14638
Joined: Dec 31 2006 3:23pm
Location: California Bay Area, USA

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by fechter » Mar 25 2019 8:47am

Img_1146A.jpg
Img_1146A.jpg (132.52 KiB) Viewed 1770 times
Had enough break in the rain to test ride a little more. I haven't run the pack to cutoff but I'm pretty sure I can get about 40 miles of hard riding and maybe 50 miles in EP mode with the booster pack. Pack assembly with bracket weighed in at 27 lbs. The booster pack probably needs a few cycles for the cells to get broken in and full capacity.

Since the packs in parallel reduce the current in each pack, there is less voltage sag on acceleration, which should let me get more out of the pack before hitting reduced speed mode. No noticeable heating on the batteries after a long ride. I think the sun was heating the cases more than the cells.

Also added a Topeak Defender front fender. This works well and is super easy to install.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

Jasonjm   100 mW

100 mW
Posts: 37
Joined: Mar 25 2019 4:17pm

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Jasonjm » Mar 25 2019 5:22pm

can someone help me here. is the sur ron mx more like a mx bike or more like a mountain bike?

i was all set on buying an alta redshift, then they went out of business.

then i stumbled upon this bike, the sur ron.

but to me it looks more like a mountain bike, with squishy brakes, fork and tires? since i used to downhill MTB the rate at which i used to go through brakepads, tires and forks killed that sport for me, it was more expensive than owning a mx bike. and i hated pedaling.

also this sur ron looks tiny. how big is it? since im 6ft3

User avatar
3DTOPO   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 383
Joined: Apr 11 2018 2:21am

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Mar 25 2019 5:34pm

Jasonjm wrote:
Mar 25 2019 5:22pm
can someone help me here. is the sur ron mx more like a mx bike or more like a mountain bike?

i was all set on buying an alta redshift, then they went out of business.

then i stumbled upon this bike, the sur ron.

but to me it looks more like a mountain bike, with squishy brakes, fork and tires? since i used to downhill MTB the rate at which i used to go through brakepads, tires and forks killed that sport for me, it was more expensive than owning a mx bike. and i hated pedaling.

also this sur ron looks tiny. how big is it? since im 6ft3
I would say it's about half MX / half mountain bike.

The built-in breaks do leave something to be desired - but easy enough to upgrade. I recently installed Shimano Saint breaks and the increased braking power over the stock breaks are awesome.

I was lucky to upgrade to the X Controller with regenerative brakes. Coming down long steep descents I barely have to use my brakes at all - they should last a very long time. Apparently, the X Controllers sold today don't have regen braking, but you can buy the ASI 4000 tuned for the Sur Ron (see the previous page). It has variable regen braking (unlike my controller) - so should save on brake pads even more.

I have 1,200 miles on mine and my rear tire is looking about ready for a new one. Has about half the tread left on it.

Seems like one of the most popular upgrades is putting a name brand fork on it. I've been happy enough with the stock one that I plan to wear it out before upgrading...

Jasonjm   100 mW

100 mW
Posts: 37
Joined: Mar 25 2019 4:17pm

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Jasonjm » Mar 25 2019 5:45pm

how much do all these upgrades add up to?

1) better contoller with brake regen
2) better heavier duty front fork (springs not air)
3) i assume heavier wider tires? especially in rear that thing looks too skiny.
4) and for single track trail riding a top speed of 50mph is a waste, seems like lower gear for more juice would be smarter.
5) riser bar for taller person over 6ft maybe?

anything else obvious im missing?

User avatar
3DTOPO   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 383
Joined: Apr 11 2018 2:21am

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Mar 25 2019 5:55pm

Jasonjm wrote:
Mar 25 2019 5:45pm
how much do all these upgrades add up to?

1) better contoller with brake regen
~$800 for the ASI 4000
Jasonjm wrote:
Mar 25 2019 5:45pm
2) better heavier duty front fork (springs not air)
$800-$1500
Jasonjm wrote:
Mar 25 2019 5:45pm
3) i assume heavier wider tires? especially in rear that thing looks too skiny.
Only slightly fatter tires are possible without a custom swingarm. I went with Bridgestone M403s. Pretty close to as fat as you can get without major changes.

$100 for a pair.
Jasonjm wrote:
Mar 25 2019 5:45pm
4) and for single track trail riding a top speed of 50mph is a waste, seems like lower gear for more juice would be smarter.
I tried a lower gear and went back to the stock. It kind of messed with accelerating in the 15-20mph range and I had ample torque with the stock sprocket to crawl up the steepest terrain around (45º+).

But, think its like $50 for a bigger sprocket.
Jasonjm wrote:
Mar 25 2019 5:45pm
5) riser bar for taller person over 6ft maybe?
I went with 3" riser bar: $50.
Jasonjm wrote:
Mar 25 2019 5:45pm
anything else obvious im missing?
There are pretty much endless upgrades. What is ideal for one person might not be for others.

aspencreek   10 mW

10 mW
Posts: 34
Joined: Oct 15 2018 1:49pm

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by aspencreek » Mar 25 2019 8:50pm

3DTOPO wrote:
Mar 25 2019 5:34pm
Jasonjm wrote:
Mar 25 2019 5:22pm
can someone help me here. is the sur ron mx more like a mx bike or more like a mountain bike?

i was all set on buying an alta redshift, then they went out of business.

then i stumbled upon this bike, the sur ron.

but to me it looks more like a mountain bike, with squishy brakes, fork and tires? since i used to downhill MTB the rate at which i used to go through brakepads, tires and forks killed that sport for me, it was more expensive than owning a mx bike. and i hated pedaling.

also this sur ron looks tiny. how big is it? since im 6ft3
I would say it's about half MX / half mountain bike.

The built-in breaks do leave something to be desired - but easy enough to upgrade. I recently installed Shimano Saint breaks and the increased braking power over the stock breaks are awesome.

I was lucky to upgrade to the X Controller with regenerative brakes. Coming down long steep descents I barely have to use my brakes at all - they should last a very long time. Apparently, the X Controllers sold today don't have regen braking, but you can buy the ASI 4000 tuned for the Sur Ron (see the previous page). It has variable regen braking (unlike my controller) - so should save on brake pads even more.

I have 1,200 miles on mine and my rear tire is looking about ready for a new one. Has about half the tread left on it.

Seems like one of the most popular upgrades is putting a name brand fork on it. I've been happy enough with the stock one that I plan to wear it out before upgrading...
You should check out this video and also some of the others on his channel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPg7kp4BaMk
This guy is about the same height as you and he has a bunch of riding and other videos showing the Sur Ron in action and walkarounds, size comparisons, etc. I'm quite a bit shorter than you and I find the bike to be pretty little, although for me the seat to peg ratio is fine and doesn't feel cramped. If you know how big a TTR125L or KLX140L is, then you'll have a good idea of the size.

Also, Luna is now showing the X version bike with Regen again. That could save some money if you don't need to swap the controller out to get regen. They also show different forks on the X bikes - now with DNM Volcano instead of the Killah RST's. I'm not familiar with the DNM so not sure if that is an improvement over my Killah's.

Grantmac   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 680
Joined: Oct 22 2018 12:43pm
Location: Victoria, BC

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Grantmac » Mar 25 2019 9:20pm

Would be nice to be able to buy a Sur-Ron minus controller battery and suspension. Go straight for the upgrades.

User avatar
Offroader   10 MW

10 MW
Posts: 2486
Joined: Sep 08 2013 9:03pm
Location: USA

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Mar 25 2019 11:48pm

The suspension is more than fine on the bike. You really have to be a professional if you really need a better suspension then what comes on the bike. Compared to any hub motored bike this is worlds better because you don't have the hub motor killing the rear suspension.


The bike really needs a controller upgrade above everything and second a battery capacity upgrade.

The brakes are very good also, even without regen.

Unless you are going to bring the bike into competition, or are an extreme dirt biker, I really don't see any reason to upgrade the brakes or suspension. The controller, yes, because the bike is lacking in power.

Its hard for me to justify spending money on better suspension components because this bike handles everything and does it amazingly.

User avatar
3DTOPO   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 383
Joined: Apr 11 2018 2:21am

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Mar 26 2019 12:11am

Offroader wrote:
Mar 25 2019 11:48pm
Unless you are going to bring the bike into competition, or are an extreme dirt biker, I really don't see any reason to upgrade the brakes or suspension. The controller, yes, because the bike is lacking in power.
Must be because of the conditions I ride in (big steep mountain in my backyard - 5,000+ vertical foot climb to the top from here), but without regen, I found the stock brakes wholly inadequate. With regen they worked OK - got me to over 1,000 miles, but I still found them wanting. The braking power with the Shimano Saints are night and day. I think being able to stop on a dime when you need to is more important than anything else.

For my needs, I have found the X Controller to have ample power for anything I can throw at it. Have not found any road or trail that I cannot climb with it yet.
Offroader wrote:
Mar 25 2019 11:48pm
Its hard for me to justify spending money on better suspension components because this bike handles everything and does it amazingly.
I completely agree with you about the suspension.
Jasonjm wrote:
Mar 25 2019 5:22pm
also this sur ron looks tiny. how big is it? since im 6ft3
I am 6'2 and have no problem with the size. I am lanky and crouched down on it, but I've never been bummed with the size of it.

User avatar
3DTOPO   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 383
Joined: Apr 11 2018 2:21am

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Mar 26 2019 12:35am

fechter wrote:
Mar 25 2019 8:47am
Also added a Topeak Defender front fender. This works well and is super easy to install.
I had the same exact fender. After about a 100 miles (of rough riding) the aluminum bracket broke from fatigue from vibrating up and down. I need to make a bracket out of steel - or just get a different fender.

If you primarily drive on paved roads, I suppose that you'll get quite a bit more miles on it than I did.

stonezone   100 W

100 W
Posts: 217
Joined: Mar 12 2014 4:25pm
Location: Oahu, Hawaii

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by stonezone » Mar 26 2019 2:49am

Offroader wrote:
Mar 20 2019 9:17am
evolutiongts ,

May I ask you with the BAC 4000 and 330A phase amps. Are you able to easily wheelie the bike without pulling the front of the bike up?

What about at 20 - 25MPH,, is that enough power to lift the front of the bike up to wheelie without pulling the wheel up?

With my Max-E and cromotor, my bike will easily wheelie, even at 25-30 MPH I believe I can wheelie the bike at those high speeds.

The stock Sur-Run, you can forget about wheeling the bike unless you are skilled enough to pull the front wheel up, at speed I think it may be impossible.
well i have my phase set around 500 with battery amps limited to about 250 (18s32ah of 12c multistars) and it's night and day from stock obviously but very managable with proper throttle tuning. I've gone higher on battery amps testing with 20s 65-130c nanotechs (my phase on the 8000 is limited to 840) and it quickly becomes unridable. I'd say for an experienced rider, 250/500-600 is pushing it as it can get away from you quickly, and for the average rider 150/400 would be perfect, and to answer your question, Hell yes it would lift that front tire without leaning back...
LR-BB on 2014 Glory
Sur-Ron
B B S-HD on some sort of DH Kona frame
2017 GG GP 300 <3

RIP Bobarella

User avatar
3DTOPO   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 383
Joined: Apr 11 2018 2:21am

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Mar 26 2019 3:08am

stonezone wrote:
Mar 26 2019 2:49am
well i have my phase set around 500 with battery amps limited to about 250 (18s32ah of 12c multistars) and it's night and day from stock obviously but very managable with proper throttle tuning. I've gone higher on battery amps testing with 20s 65-130c nanotechs (my phase on the 8000 is limited to 840) and it quickly becomes unridable. I'd say for an experienced rider, 250/500-600 is pushing it as it can get away from you quickly, and for the average rider 150/400 would be perfect, and to answer your question, Hell yes it would lift that front tire without leaning back...
With your pack, and set to 150/400, how do you think the range would compare to the stock controller?

evolutiongts   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 777
Joined: Dec 31 2013 5:13pm
Location: Alhambra, CA

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by evolutiongts » Mar 26 2019 3:55pm

Range would likely decrease if you are mashing on the throttle, however if you are just cruising and taking it easy. I think it should be comparable to the stock controller in terms of range, the ASI is more efficent running than most controllers, and tends to just sip power while crusing. You also have working regen braking that will also extend range.
http://www.electricrt.com
Electric Race Technologies

Schwinn 405 2WD Track Bike 18KW
EDGE 1500W Hub / MXUS 3K Turbo
ASI BAC 2000 / BAC 4000 Bluetooth
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=93079

10Kw KMX death trike
MUXUS 3K Turbo
Sabvoton 72V150A
Moto Wheels all around
Front Suspension Kit
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=83423

Giant Trance 4 Full Suspension
Cyclone 3000W
74V 3000W
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=59005

Jasonjm   100 mW

100 mW
Posts: 37
Joined: Mar 25 2019 4:17pm

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Jasonjm » Mar 26 2019 8:32pm

so what is it like riding this thing on single track trails vs a 250cc?

obviously the 250cc has more power, more top end, and is an all around bigger bike, with a much larger rear tire.

but what about manouverability? is the sur ron at 100lbs much easier to manouver on trail? like for ruts, downhill sections etc?

what about grip? is the sur ron harder or easier for steep climbs vs a 250cc?

User avatar
Jonathan1981   100 W

100 W
Posts: 153
Joined: Mar 29 2011 7:48pm

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Jonathan1981 » Mar 26 2019 10:23pm

stonezone wrote:
Mar 26 2019 2:49am
Offroader wrote:
Mar 20 2019 9:17am
evolutiongts ,

May I ask you with the BAC 4000 and 330A phase amps. Are you able to easily wheelie the bike without pulling the front of the bike up?

What about at 20 - 25MPH,, is that enough power to lift the front of the bike up to wheelie without pulling the wheel up?

With my Max-E and cromotor, my bike will easily wheelie, even at 25-30 MPH I believe I can wheelie the bike at those high speeds.

The stock Sur-Run, you can forget about wheeling the bike unless you are skilled enough to pull the front wheel up, at speed I think it may be impossible.
well i have my phase set around 500 with battery amps limited to about 250 (18s32ah of 12c multistars) and it's night and day from stock obviously but very managable with proper throttle tuning. I've gone higher on battery amps testing with 20s 65-130c nanotechs (my phase on the 8000 is limited to 840) and it quickly becomes unridable. I'd say for an experienced rider, 250/500-600 is pushing it as it can get away from you quickly, and for the average rider 150/400 would be perfect, and to answer your question, Hell yes it would lift that front tire without leaning back...
have you shared details about your pack build anywhere? I'm in research phase for new pack build, trying to soak up as much info as possible..

User avatar
3DTOPO   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 383
Joined: Apr 11 2018 2:21am

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Mar 26 2019 10:29pm

Jasonjm wrote:
Mar 26 2019 8:32pm
but what about manouverability? is the sur ron at 100lbs much easier to manouver on trail? like for ruts, downhill sections etc?
I haven't ridden a 250, but I am sure at less than half the weight the sur-ron is much more nimble - way less likely to brake an ankle too.

Well, that's also what someone whom I let take the Sur-Ron out who normally rides a 250cc said. In fact, the first thing he said coming back from his first ride on it was (with a big smile): "I'm selling my 250!".
Jasonjm wrote:
Mar 26 2019 8:32pm
what about grip? is the sur ron harder or easier for steep climbs vs a 250cc?
I don't know how to answer that, but, I have totally kept up with the 250s I have run with.

Post Reply