Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

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Jasonjm   100 mW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Jasonjm » May 11 2019 6:10am

so.... i installed my diety 3 inch riser bar backwards (by mistake when i was rebuilding).... and suddently the bike has so much more space for a tall rider (6ft2)

its obviously a bit weird initially since the bar is now angled slightly away, but the tradeoff of more space seems worth it.

anyone else tried this? not sure if its a good idea or not.

I only do technicaly trail riding on my sur ron (steep single track with rock gardens, ruts, water etc)

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Offroader   100 MW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » May 12 2019 5:16pm

freeflow wrote:
May 11 2019 1:32am
Allex wrote:
May 09 2019 12:42pm
The battery was pain in the ass to build, really tight when all the cables needs to be tucked in on top of the case.
What was the build cost?
Its going to mostly cost you the cost of the cells. Which would be about $3.00 per cell from nkon. Assuming you use 230 cells it would cost you about $700 for the cells.

Then you would need to buy some nickel strip and a spot welder if you don't have any. Spot Welder another $100-$150 depending on what you buy, nickel strip another $25-$50.

I would say if do all this yourself you are looking at between $800 and $1000 dollars. You could then sell the panasonic cells that you remove from your current battery pack for some money back because what are you going to do with 176 2900 MAH cells? You may be able to get $300-$500 for those cells so a pack build may only cost you $500 or maybe even less.

You can also potentially buy empty Sur-Ron battery cases. AEBikes supposedly sells empty Sur-Ron battery cases but I'm not sure exactly what that includes or the price. You would have to contact them. But that is another option if you want two batteries and keep your stock battery pack. The cost of a new battery case will add to the cost. If any of you contact AEBikes and find out the price and what you get exactly please post here or PM me the details.

To be honest you are better off just keeping one battery pack because why would you need the crappy stock pack after building a new pack with more amps and higher capacity. Just sell the used cells here on endless sphere or on ebay and get some money back as you will never use it.

I'm going to eventually build a new pack for my bike and it will be a very good pack maximizing all available space and probably using 3500 MAH Sanyo cells. I'm sure I can fit about 260-300 cells in the stock case. This will be the ultimate pack for range (battery capacity) and also offer much higher amps then the stock pack. I'm going to squeeze as many cells as possible using no spacers and even wires to connect some of the pack in series to maximize cells in the battery case.

At this point I am waiting for a new controller because if I build the pack now I am limited to 16s and may want to go as high as 20s which the stock controller can not handle. Once I get a new controller I will then order the cells and build the pack.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Joachim » May 13 2019 1:25am

for me the pack you going to build wil crapy over the stock :shock: no cell holders maximum cells in a alloy case is not the wise option and special when ride al lot offroad :flame:

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Tommm » May 13 2019 11:22am

Joachim wrote:
May 13 2019 1:25am
for me the pack you going to build wil crapy over the stock :shock: no cell holders maximum cells in a alloy case is not the wise option and special when ride al lot offroad :flame:
He will spare even the glue for extra space, and force the battery in with a rubber mallet, then proceed to run off 8 foot drops. Wish him luck.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by artisanstone » May 13 2019 11:33am

For anyone who's not seen it, there's a new long Luna interview on Youtube. All about the Sur-ron, future plans, etc.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Tommm » May 13 2019 12:06pm

artisanstone wrote:
May 13 2019 11:33am
For anyone who's not seen it, there's a new long Luna interview on Youtube. All about the Sur-ron, future plans, etc.
In short they are doing a 30q pack with bac4000.
Also will be offering a limited number of belt driven models where they saw the chainstay and bolt it back up to install the belt.

Also, just as in the last episode, they again talk about how endless sphere is a terrible place with a lot of misinfo. :lol:

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Joachim » May 13 2019 2:08pm

the range on my street legal sur-ron.

after40km eco&power 50/50 20% battery....46Km battery 10% :(

20% battery speed and power gone..i cant keep up with the traffic so 40km range on the EU open road.

They put onther cells in the new battery ?

My green offroad old controller first battery way more power torque and more range :|

i wil make a new battery for this sur-ron bike pfff this is to small 50km max range battery for me :evil:

I even have road tyres on the sur-ron :flame:
Image
Last edited by Joachim on May 15 2019 2:10am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by artisanstone » May 13 2019 2:25pm

Tommm wrote:
May 13 2019 12:06pm
artisanstone wrote:
May 13 2019 11:33am
For anyone who's not seen it, there's a new long Luna interview on Youtube. All about the Sur-ron, future plans, etc.
In short they are doing a 30q pack with bac4000.
Also will be offering a limited number of belt driven models where they saw the chainstay and bolt it back up to install the belt.

Also, just as in the last episode, they again talk about how endless sphere is a terrible place with a lot of misinfo. :lol:
I saw the part about sawing the frame. I guess they were talking swingarm? Didn't really make sense to me.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by n2mb » May 13 2019 9:42pm

I did a 31.5 mile ride today on my Sur Ron with the X controller and super Moto wheels. I ended up with 3% battery left. It dropped to eco mode at 6%. The first half of the ride had long stretches at wide open throttle on 45mph roads. On the way back, I took it a bit easier, going about 35 mph or so to avoid running out of battery.

Average speed was 30 mph, max speed 48 mph on the gps.

Not bad. Cutting it a bit close, though! I didn't run it all the way down because I ran out of time and didn't want to walk the bike home....

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » May 14 2019 12:13am

Tommm wrote:
May 13 2019 11:22am
Joachim wrote:
May 13 2019 1:25am
for me the pack you going to build wil crapy over the stock :shock: no cell holders maximum cells in a alloy case is not the wise option and special when ride al lot offroad :flame:
He will spare even the glue for extra space, and force the battery in with a rubber mallet, then proceed to run off 8 foot drops. Wish him luck.
Joachim wrote:
May 13 2019 1:25am
for me the pack you going to build wil crapy over the stock :shock: no cell holders maximum cells in a alloy case is not the wise option and special when ride al lot offroad :flame:
That is correct I will not be using spacers as its a complete waste of space for my needs. I will use closed cell foam at the very bottom, and very thin foam around the sides. I'm really not sure how I will work everything out until I get the cells. I will make sure everything is tight inside the case.

If you want to use spacers and use lots of foam and don't need the battery capacity then do what you want if you have the room because it will be better to use spacers. But remember, if I pull up to the chicks with a huge 3.2KWH pack and you pull up with your puny 2.3KWH pack with spacers who do you think the chicks are going to want to ride 8) ? I already maximized the last battery in my hub bike by using no spacers, and very thin foam on the sides with no issues and the battery didn't get extremely hot.

Optimally if you have unlimited amount of space to build a pack then yeah use spacers as that would be better, this isn't an option if you want a 3KWH pack in the Sur-Ron that fits in the stock removable battery case, you have to maximize space and get rid of the spacers and use little foam, which isn't an issue if done correctly. I'm not just building a Sur-Ron battery, I'm building the largest capacity battery that I can fit, just like I did in my Q76 Qulbix. Im pushing the limits here but I want the battery to not be damaged also.

I appreciate the rudeness BTW.

Here is a pic of my 3.2KWH pack that had minimal foam and was squeezed into the small 76mm wide frame. I didn't install a BMS for 2 years, cells still perfectly balanced after 2 years without a BMS and without cells put into parallel. This shows that there was absolutely no cell damage to any of the cells or they would quickly become unbalanced. There were lots of haters, just like you guys, for this pack also but it worked out perfectly. I even called this the most hated pack on endless sphere because of how it was built for even current flow through the cells because of its rounded size.Image

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Allex   1 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Allex » May 14 2019 2:16am

Yeah that pack is something to remember, its built correctly its just that it is not that very nice to look at because of all the worms.
Good luck fitting more than 210 cells. Even without spacers this pack has annoying limited size. You sit there and think in style of "if I only had 3mm more I could get additional 50 cells "

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ziltoid81   1 kW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by ziltoid81 » May 14 2019 3:24am

I remember someone printed a sur ron case few pages back, if im not too wrong.
Maybe thats something for offroader.

I also have a 380cell pack in my raptor without spacers or cellholders, the pack runs for 18000km so far and just works.

Is it safer with cell holders, no doubt about it.
Joachim wrote:
May 13 2019 2:08pm
the range on my street legal sur-ron.

after40km eco&power 50/50 20% battery....46Km battery 10% :(
That equals around 35wh/km, i have to go pretty hard to get that consumption with my 8kw hub setup.
Im around 27wh/km long therm.
If i only use the sur ron stock power levels i might hit more like 21-23wh/km.
35wh/km is very poor considering the power levels of the stock sur ron, but it depends on so much things like terrain, weather, tires, tire pressure, riding style and what not.
Last edited by ziltoid81 on May 14 2019 7:24am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Tommm » May 14 2019 5:00am

It would make sense making an identical but taller case with space for an extra layer... The same lid could be used then, and it's not like it's bumping into your chest anyway.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Joachim » May 14 2019 1:40pm

ziltoid81 wrote:
May 14 2019 3:24am
I remember someone printed a sur ron case few pages back, if im not too wrong.
Maybe thats something for offroader.

I also have a 380cell pack in my raptor without spacers or cellholders, the pack runs for 18000km so far and just works.

Is it safer with cell holders, no doubt about it.
Joachim wrote:
May 13 2019 2:08pm
the range on my street legal sur-ron.

after40km eco&power 50/50 20% battery....46Km battery 10% :(
That equals around 35wh/km, i have to go pretty hard to get that consumption with my 8kw hub setup.
Im around 27wh/km long therm.
If i only use the sur ron stock power levels i might hit more like 21-23wh/km.
35wh/km is very poor considering the power levels of the stock sur ron, but it depends on so much things like terrain, weather, tires, tire pressure, riding style and what not.
Today again after 41km the battery shows 20%, this time i ride most of the time in EP mode. i need to dubbel the range :bolt: for the money you pay for a street legal EU sur-ron I think this is a expensive joke

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by n2mb » May 14 2019 2:08pm

Joachim wrote:
May 14 2019 1:40pm
Today again after 41km the battery shows 20%, this time i ride most of the time in EP mode. i need to dubbel the range :bolt: for the money you pay for a street legal EU sur-ron I think this is a expensive joke
What do you mean? Is the range of the street legal Sur Ron different than the regular Sur Ron? I can't see how it would be. Same battery? 60V 32AH?

Your range sounds similar to mine. I get about 30 miles on a charge.

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skyungjae   10 kW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by skyungjae » May 14 2019 2:15pm

Joachim wrote:
May 14 2019 1:40pm
Today again after 41km the battery shows 20%, this time i ride most of the time in EP mode. i need to dubbel the range :bolt: for the money you pay for a street legal EU sur-ron I think this is a expensive joke
I have the same issues regarding range, so I just take my charger with me everywhere I go.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » May 14 2019 3:35pm

Allex wrote:
May 14 2019 2:16am
Yeah that pack is something to remember, its built correctly its just that it is not that very nice to look at because of all the worms.
Good luck fitting more than 210 cells. Even without spacers this pack has annoying limited size. You sit there and think in style of "if I only had 3mm more I could get additional 50 cells "
You may be correct that the space is so limited that I couldn't fit anything more than 230 or so cells.

However, I will even stack the cells like in the picture below, using wires to connect the various groups of cells. I will basically try and squeeze as many as I could and then I'll probably need a rubber mallet to knock it into the foam for a tight fit. The funny thing is to get a proper tight fit with foam you really should have to press extremely hard to get the pack in with a tight fit in the closed cell foam. This way the foam expands around the indentations of the pack, or between cells and holds everything firmly even after the foam shrinks a little. I don't use a rubber mallot, I actually just stand on the cells and use my full body weight to push the pack into the foam :shock: .

As long as you get a little foam to fill in the gaps around the edges of the cells, and the cells are not moving around you need very little foam. You really only need very little foam thickness at the sides. Too much foam will insulate the pack. You should put at least 5mm of closed foam at the very bottom.

18650 cells are not like pouch lipo cells which deform very easily. I have yet to see an 18650 cell deform or get bent. I've had packs of cells in my backpack for years with no issues, 6 cell packs just wraped up in plastic packing tape. Even on my bike I had a section where 4 cells were pressed up against the frame with no foam, yet none of those cells had any issues. I am actually surprised none of those cells got bent to be honest.

You can see in the picture I could not get any foam along the back and 3 cells are pushed up against the steel frame. I wedged in glue sticks to relieve some of the tension for as much as that does and some of them eventually fell out. Even with the pressure against these few cells and lots of off-road riding, these few 18650 cells surprisingly stayed in perfect balance (cells were never put in parallel) and didn't deform at all after 3 riding seasons. These cells are much more robust then you would think.

I wouldn't recommend doing this unless you have to, don't get me wrong here. But if you want to push the limits and need the capacity and you have no choice then go for it. We are not building a NASA space shuttle here are we?



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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Joachim » May 15 2019 2:07am

n2mb wrote:
May 14 2019 2:08pm
Joachim wrote:
May 14 2019 1:40pm
Today again after 41km the battery shows 20%, this time i ride most of the time in EP mode. i need to dubbel the range :bolt: for the money you pay for a street legal EU sur-ron I think this is a expensive joke
What do you mean? Is the range of the street legal Sur Ron different than the regular Sur Ron? I can't see how it would be. Same battery? 60V 32AH?

Your range sounds similar to mine. I get about 30 miles on a charge.
they claim 69km in ep mode for the street legal EU surron.
I am 68kg and drive only on the street, street tyres,most of the time a speed of 43kmh in ep mode....40km the battery shows 20% and the power is like my first 1500watt magic pie hub e-bike kit :lol:

Also the 40km range is the China range on the surron display :oops: i ride 6km and the display shows 6,9km :shock:
The 40km wil be more like 35km in real gps kmhs :lowbatt:

Need to build a new battery case that fits the surron.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by ziltoid81 » May 15 2019 9:41am

I am 85kg, bike must be heavier than the sur ron with my 380cell battery, also always street commuting, but a little faster, mainly 40-70kmh and still i dont reach your consumption when i dont go crazy.

But i read before that the sur ron isnt the most efficient ebike, at least stock.

50km with your weight and that slow speed and power is pretty weak for around 1700wh.
Do you have many stops at your route?

I really want a sur ron to have a registered bike, but i compare it to my bike and there are many disadvantages.
For me, efficiency is more important than 10kw or 100kmh topspeed.
Of course i can add another battery, but it makes no sense to feed more wh when its an inefficient setup.

Does someone have efficiency numbers for a sur ron modded with a better controller like adaptto etc.?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by n2mb » May 15 2019 10:01am

ziltoid81 wrote:
May 15 2019 9:41am
I am 85kg, bike must be heavier than the sur ron with my 380cell battery, also always street commuting, but a little faster, mainly 40-70kmh and still i dont reach your consumption when i dont go crazy.

But i read before that the sur ron isnt the most efficient ebike, at least stock.

50km with your weight and that slow speed and power is pretty weak for around 1700wh.
Do you have many stops at your route?

I really want a sur ron to have a registered bike, but i compare it to my bike and there are many disadvantages.
For me, efficiency is more important than 10kw or 100kmh topspeed.
Of course i can add another battery, but it makes no sense to feed more wh when its an inefficient setup.

Does someone have efficiency numbers for a sur ron modded with a better controller like adaptto etc.?
I posted results on the facebook group for a 31.5 mile ride. I got 50 wHr / mi.

Someone else posted a much slower ride with the ASI controller that got 30 wHr / mi. Projected 65 mi range.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by madin88 » May 15 2019 10:34am

Allex wrote:
May 14 2019 2:16am
Even without spacers this pack has annoying limited size. You sit there and think in style of "if I only had 3mm more I could get additional 50 cells "
What are the dimensions of the battery slot?
Maybe it is possible to use a large aluminum tube as battery housing instead of the original one (where those guidways or notches take away some space inside)..
As for instance 200x200x3mm tube which would be a standard size and available for cheap.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Joachim » May 15 2019 12:19pm

Save battery build like the surron battery.
Battery case 8 cm in height extra can give jou 4 layers extra(20mm cell spacers?)

1 layer fits 12 cells in the original battery.

48 cells extra so 224 cells in total: 16S-14P/ 57,6V-47Ah:2700Wh like 1kwh extra .

Honey comb cell holders wil give you even more space for extra cells.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » May 15 2019 12:32pm

Joachim, what specific cells do you plan to use which will give you 2.7KWH with 224 cells?

I wish I knew about how many cells you can fit in. When using 3500MAH cells you need at least a 12p configuration or you will not have enough amps. Hard to justify buying the cells and then realizing you can't fit at least 240 cells into the case.

30Q = 15A rated cells
Sanyo 18650GA 3500MAH cells = 10A rated cells.

You can get away with a 20s10p using 30Q but not really with Sanyo cells.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Joachim » May 15 2019 1:01pm

Offroader wrote:
May 15 2019 12:32pm
Joachim, what specific cells do you plan to use which will give you 2.7KWH with 224 cells?

I wish I knew about how many cells you can fit in. When using 3500MAH cells you need at least a 12p configuration or you will not have enough amps. Hard to justify buying the cells and then realizing you can't fit at least 240 cells into the case.

30Q = 15A rated cells
Sanyo 18650GA 3500MAH cells = 10A rated cells.

You can get away with a 20s10p using 30Q but not really with Sanyo cells.
for me is the main thing extra range......14P samsung/sanyo/LG cells in the 3350mah/3500mah range wil give you
47Ah. Cells like the Q30 is a good idea but thebig challenge wil be the serie connections.

20700/21700 cells wil wurk in a new higher case :P

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » May 15 2019 1:44pm

Unless you plan to keep the stock controller, why would you want to use only 16S? I would say you are better off using 18s or 20s.

The sur-ron controller has an OK top speed, but it would be nicer if it would be just a little faster. This is why I plan on using 20s, that would bring the top speed from maybe 44MPH to 50MPH.

You can always use overdrive, but that just overheats the motor and wastes energy.

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