Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

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Amaxophobie   100 mW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Amaxophobie » Oct 15 2020 2:20am

@Offroader

Is this how you drive around every day or was it just a picture after installation of the nucular (not nuclear :D ) controller?

I know it's a matter of taste but having the cables sticking out like this ruins the whole (closed) look of the bike in my opinion. And of course the protection against dirt and water. Maybe a custom 3D-printed cover would fit nicely?
4h8FFK4.jpg
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Stunt scooter conversion |AP 80100 | KLS 7218S | 23 kg
viewtopic.php?f=35&t=97391
Chinese Pit Bike Conversion | Nucular 12F | LMX-Motor 60mm | 18s 16Ah LiPo
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=102714

Youtube
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqr3x7 ... 5kRkTCIZng

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Offroader   100 MW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Oct 15 2020 2:41am

That video is really great discussing these things, especially the offset which is very high on the 27.5" fox fork. Normally 27.5" forks have a greater offset than 26" forks, but the fox 27.5" 40 forks had a really high offset.

What is interesting is what this guy says in the video about people being sensitive to these things. I find it interesting because I said I was sensitive to these changes, and I guess some people don't notice these changes and it depends on your body.

Watch the video at 9:00 minutes.
https://youtu.be/0ZOFcO50D0A?t=537

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Offroader   100 MW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Oct 15 2020 2:54am

Amaxophobie wrote:
Oct 15 2020 2:20am
@Offroader

Is this how you drive around every day or was it just a picture after installation of the nucular (not nuclear :D ) controller?

I know it's a matter of taste but having the cables sticking out like this ruins the whole (closed) look of the bike in my opinion. And of course the protection against dirt and water. Maybe a custom 3D-printed cover would fit nicely?

4h8FFK4.jpg

Good question. Yes I ride the bike like that. The reason is I didn't want to cut any of the wires, at least not yet. I'm still unsure if I wanted to put the controller in the sur-ron case. I also wanted to be able to easily swap back to my stock x-controller if I have any issues.

The sur-ron wires are also very stiff and its not easy to route them. I didn't really spend much time either trying to keep them more hidden so it is possible that you could route them better.

The issue with dirt/water is a non-issue because the connectors are tin coated, I'm not really that concerned about it and if they did corrode I could easily just replace the connectors.

To be honest, the picture really highlights the wires. In person, it is much less noticeable to the point that it was not worth the time and effort to make a neater job.

Just like you I was very concerned with this at first, I fought with the owner/developer of the nuclear controller to make the controller mountable in a sur-ron controller like he has done for Alex. I really tried, but I was not successful after repeated attempts and he said not going to happen, even if I offered him a nice sum of money. They must be so behind in making these controllers that it was not profitable for him to make these sur-ron mountable.

I don't like doing things that hurt performance to look better, so I decided against mounting a controller in a controller and I don't even notice it now. Unless you are showing the bike off in a show, I wouldn't worry about it.

Image

lorenzo111   1 µW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by lorenzo111 » Oct 20 2020 9:56pm

mbldc wrote:
Dec 15 2018 1:47pm
mbldc wrote:
Dec 14 2018 1:00am
macribs wrote:
Dec 13 2018 11:20pm
Why not use the standard domino cable throttle and not the e-bike throttle? It comes in two versions. One normal and one "quick twist" version that has a shorter twist range.
Agree, that seems the best solution for me now. "Quick" seems to be values below 2°/mm

http://www.domino-group.com/en/12-produ ... ntrol.html

With respect to the little total power the surron offers, you have to full twist it very often, which makes my wrist aching after a short time with the stock throttle
Just installed the Domino Quickthrottle. Did not fit right out of the box: The throttle cable end was little to short for the domino, my solution was to dremel the internal end stop of the domino. Now it is thight with nearly no play, but thats ok.
Original full twist was about 60°, now it is 40°. Feels good. :D But has one disadvantage (which can not be prevented even with a ball bearing throttle): The wrist force got 1/3 higher because of the new lever ratio. :roll:

regards,

Marco
Just got mine in and am completely stuck! What kind of resistors did you use, is there a reference or a guide you followed?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by ggHawk » Oct 26 2020 3:46pm

I remade the rear bracket for my custom under-the-seat battery pack. I used a 1/2" x 1/8" steel bar that I filed and bent into a "U" to fit into the back end of the seat frame. It's pretty much a press fit, but I put in a couple of cotter pins to hold it in place anyway. It's MUCH stronger than my original bracket, and should hold the battery fine. The new bracket also holds the license plate and rear LEDs (running/brake/turn) in a much better configuration. Now it doesn't stick up and actually acts as a short rear fender. I decided I don't really need the long rear fender I had on there. This is the wiring connector (waterproof) I used:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01LC ... UTF8&psc=1
sronNewBracketWires.jpg
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sronNewBracket.jpg
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by ggHawk » Oct 26 2020 4:34pm

At the risk of starting another thumb throttle argument, I'd like a little advice on the subject.
In general, I love how easy I can control the sur-ron through very rough terrain. The only thing that bugs me sometimes is the throttle sensitivity in certain situations. As I mentioned earlier, I was able to adjust the throttle voltage rail settings in the controller to achieve a reasonable torque curve, but during rapid rough terrain descents, sometimes I accidently give a little throttle, which on my bike is a fair amount of torque. This only happens when wearing gloves (almost always the case in the dirt). It struck me that for gnarly downhill sections, a thumb throttle would work quite well since I'd be able to apply maximum stabilizing force on the bars with both hands. As you're getting bounced around, it's always been a slight performance compromise to have a handle that twists. I've always just dealt with it, but after seeing some comments about it here, I think I want to try one for myself and see how I like it.
Offroader, you mentioned you like the 106DX. That one includes a battery gauge that is useless since it only goes to 48V. Can anyone (sn0wchyld?) recommend one that's just a simple throttle (3 wire only), like maybe the Bafang BBSxx, that has really good feel to it? They have both a right side and universal (left/right) version. Has anyone compared/tried them?

I may find that I love it downhill, but hate it uphill. Only one way to really know...

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by thoroughbred » Oct 26 2020 7:59pm

Thumb throttle thoughts:

Why is the geometry of the light bee as delivered sacrosanct while the OEM throttle type is not?

I don't like riding my atv for extended periods as my thumb knuckle gets sore and the thumbtip gets frozen if it is cold outside.

The hammer to twist throttle comparison is only valid if you were to strike nails with only your fingers wrapped around the handle and your thumb disengaged

It is not unusual for my left thigh to either beep the horn or change the map button position during an offroad ride. A thumb throttle is more exposed than these buttons on the handlebar.

Arm pump is an affliction of sustained offroad riding, I do not know if a thumb throttle would be better or worse. I look forward to your evaluation with regards to these areas of interest.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by dirkdiggler » Oct 27 2020 12:43am

I've argued for both thumb and twist. Don't know which is better personally. It's interesting to me that most motos have twist and four wheelers don't. Why is that? Clutch? No, my four wheler has a clutch.
I've used the wuxing thumb on older builds and like it. You could wire up both and have options, think that would work well. I've personally had the thumb go numb problem. Here's the Wuxing.
bigbear-thumb-throttle.jpg
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by sn0wchyld » Oct 27 2020 5:02am

ggHawk wrote:
Oct 26 2020 4:34pm
At the risk of starting another thumb throttle argument, I'd like a little advice on the subject.
In general, I love how easy I can control the sur-ron through very rough terrain. The only thing that bugs me sometimes is the throttle sensitivity in certain situations. As I mentioned earlier, I was able to adjust the throttle voltage rail settings in the controller to achieve a reasonable torque curve, but during rapid rough terrain descents, sometimes I accidently give a little throttle, which on my bike is a fair amount of torque. This only happens when wearing gloves (almost always the case in the dirt). It struck me that for gnarly downhill sections, a thumb throttle would work quite well since I'd be able to apply maximum stabilizing force on the bars with both hands. As you're getting bounced around, it's always been a slight performance compromise to have a handle that twists. I've always just dealt with it, but after seeing some comments about it here, I think I want to try one for myself and see how I like it.
Offroader, you mentioned you like the 106DX. That one includes a battery gauge that is useless since it only goes to 48V. Can anyone (sn0wchyld?) recommend one that's just a simple throttle (3 wire only), like maybe the Bafang BBSxx, that has really good feel to it? They have both a right side and universal (left/right) version. Has anyone compared/tried them?

I may find that I love it downhill, but hate it uphill. Only one way to really know...
I've tried several types of throttle... thumb, finger, half and full twist... and keep coming back to thumb. Specifically those that are coaxial with the handle bars. They result in the least arm/ thumb pump and fewest control issues.

For me i like the throttles that let me brace my thumb against the bars or throttle body, so if in rough terrain i can brace my thumb against a stationary part of the bars/ throttle and prevent accidental blips, something i found much harder to do on both twist and radially axial thumb throttles like you see on quads. I still use some degree of wrist movement to modulate the throttle (ie inducing small thumb movements) in these cases to, just allows me an easy way to 'dampen' the throttle response on the fly.

I think it's the slight delay in response that makes ice throttles easier too, think about just slapping the throttle on a ice bike or car... you'll get a blip I power but noting like the speed of response you can get on a emoto. The lack of a clutch also makes throttle control more critical...

The one area i still think twist is better is in air and to some degree wheelies, thumb still Works but the gross movement control is a bit easier in the air imo. I don't do huge jumps though so less of an issue, maybe I'll change if i get to doing that more often... though i doubt it.

There's a big advantage on emotos that swapping out a throttle is easy, so try a few and see what works for you.

Image
Style i use

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by BigBird » Oct 27 2020 9:20am

Is there a way to use one (or more) of the small light weight battery packages normally used for model airplanes as a BOOSTER for the SurRon stock battery? It would seem it would be easy to carry one or more of these to use as a range extender? These batteries are available in a variety of voltages/sizes. (one example)
https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-hig ... -xt90.html

I was thinking that when the stock battery gets to some TBD % of discharge this means the voltage has dropped (I think) and then it might be possible to add the booster battery in series to restore the lost voltage and thus extend the range?
Of course a Sur-Ron compatible connector would need to be added.

Any thoughts on this from you folks appreciated.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by ggHawk » Oct 27 2020 11:24am

Thanks all for the thumb throttle feedback.

Regarding the Lipo question:
Yes you can use them. You need to do your research though.
They're more fragile than L.Ion type. The charging phase, in particular, has to be more controlled, so I personally wouldn't want to use them as a "main use" pack, but as range extension only, I think they'd be fine.
Your suggestion of putting them in series on top of a depleted battery (via a switch I guess) is probably not a good idea. It doesn't take very many of them (you can get them in 22.2V for instance) to build up a full voltage stack that you could just switch to when you deplete your main pack. You should have them separate from the L.Ion portion to charge them anyway. In fact, it's probably a good idea to have them in a removable pack (maybe even fireproof) that you could charge in a safe place. The graphite based ones are apparently safer in this regard, but the energy density isn't quite as high yet.
Spend some time looking at the options for voltages and currents from the available LiPo's to give you a gut feel for the size/weight you'll be dealing with. Then pick your preferred container type (tank bag, saddle bags, back pack...), find the weight you're willing to add, then re-shop for the battery configuration that would give you the most energy capacity to fill that container. You should also consider impact protection. I think they're a little more fragile in that regard as well.

I have two L.Ion packs that are usually enough, but I've been considering filling my tank bag with Lipo's for even more range. I would use them in a series 72V stacked configuration, with the appropriate connector attached to mate with the surron connector, since I just physically swap the connections. That's what I do for my 2nd L.Ion battery too. I decided not to parallel because of the flexibility/control it gives (so I can control how much of each is depleted). I also looked into adding a physical switch, but for the amount of current we're talking about, they get pretty large, and it's actually hard to find just the right size switch. Since it's so quick and easy to just manually swap the connectors, I decided on that approach. Although, if I needed to do the switching for a long race, I might choose a switch.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by ggHawk » Oct 27 2020 1:34pm

By the way, when I said do your research, that includes fully understanding how you're going to charge them. There is some bad advice out there for parallel charging. In case you were thinking of disconnecting you're lipo stack and simply connecting in parallel to a lower voltage charger that you happen to have. Not a great idea. You should find a charger that can either charge the various cells in parallel with separate/multiple connections from the charger, or one that charges the whole stack (in series) with smaller balancing connections. I haven't finished learning about the various charger options out there, so I don't want to recommend specific solutions. I just wanted to warn you to research this aspect well before you buy a bunch of LiPos.

You also have to be more careful when discharging since you won't have a full stack BMS (unless you add one) to protect from an individual cell getting too low - you don't want to go below about 3.0V for LiPo. So you just need to figure out what total pack voltage you want to limit to, and assume there will be a little bit of imbalance on discharge. In other words, build in some margin when you figure your "depleted" level.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by BigBird » Oct 27 2020 3:50pm

Thanks for all the great info on my LIPO question. I'm new at this and am OLD Dummy so hopefully you (or someone) can help me some more.

I THINK? it looks like I could get 3 of these
https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-hig ... -xt90.html
and a charger and some connector plugs plus a Sur-Ron compatible plug

Then could connect the 3 in series to get 66V and 48AH that would be about an 8" x 8" x3" package under 14 lbs. that I could mount on my front forks (where the headlight was). I could then change over to this added battery pack once the original was used up.

Please LMK if this makes sense?

THANK YOU!

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by ggHawk » Oct 27 2020 6:10pm

Yes that could work. As you probably know, you want to find a high Wh/Kg (energy density). That one is reasonable (about 176).
So far I haven't found a LiPo charger that can charge a high voltage pack (with balancing capability), so unless you can find one, you'd have to charge them separately... so you'd need to be messing with the connections (to split for charging).
As I mentioned before, just make sure you google how to use LiPos safely.
There are 4 port chargers that would allow charging all three simultaneously like this one:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0872 ... 9JDF&psc=1
Hitec makes one too (X4). But these can only charge at a 10A rate, so you may want to shop around.

The 48Ah you said is not right. You'd still only get 16Ah. You'd have 16Ah x 66V = 1056 Wh, which is what matters.

Also, you need to make sure the controller you're using can handle 66V. I think the stock X controller spec is 60V. Don't know how conservative that is, but you should research that too. OR get a better controller that will allow higher voltage AND give you better circuitry (incl. better FETs) for increased efficiency.

Or, of course, you could just swap one of the 22.2V units for a 14.8V so you can safely use the X controller.
If you like Turnigy, they make one:
https://www.amazon.com/Turnigy-High-Cap ... 146&sr=8-2
Last edited by ggHawk on Oct 28 2020 11:23am, edited 2 times in total.

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Rix   100 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Rix » Oct 28 2020 1:32pm

ggHawk wrote:
Oct 26 2020 3:46pm
I remade the rear bracket for my custom under-the-seat battery pack. I used a 1/2" x 1/8" steel bar that I filed and bent into a "U" to fit into the back end of the seat frame. It's pretty much a press fit, but I put in a couple of cotter pins to hold it in place anyway. It's MUCH stronger than my original bracket, and should hold the battery fine. The new bracket also holds the license plate and rear LEDs (running/brake/turn) in a much better configuration. Now it doesn't stick up and actually acts as a short rear fender. I decided I don't really need the long rear fender I had on there. This is the wiring connector (waterproof) I used:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01LC ... UTF8&psc=1
sronNewBracketWires.jpg
sronNewBracket.jpg
Nice purpose built mods there. :bigthumb: I am looking at putting a taller seat on mine.

Hawaiiguy   10 µW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Hawaiiguy » Oct 28 2020 3:26pm

Check out Race Spec Sur Ron site,they have a seat that attaches to the stock seat and goes up over the battery cover and is an inch taller.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by ggHawk » Oct 29 2020 9:59am

I mentioned I was thinking about using LiPo's for my tank bag battery. After finishing that "thinking", I've decided in my case, L.Ion would be better.
Advantages:
Lighter - ~11 lbs vs ~14 lbs for about ~1KWh.
Safer - LIon vs LiPo, and constant monitoring (charge and discharge) with built in BMS.
Easier - standard charging method on or off the bike.
Cheaper - in my case, since I'll probably build it myself and already have a BMS, charger, and tools to build.
Disadvantage:
Hassle - wiring it up takes a lot of time.

I did talk to maxamps about building it for me. They said they could do it, but I haven't received their quotes yet (LiPo and LIon versions).

Final note: Since I won't need it until next year, I'll wait. Who knows, maybe better batteries will come out. That's what we're all waiting on, right? Lots of promising things going on, just no product yet.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Irling » Oct 29 2020 9:20pm

Hi guys. Excuse my English, I use a translator. Has anyone used Chinese Votol controllers? Yesterday I connected the EM100S http://www.votol.net/en-us/controller/26.html controller to my Surron, it is written that this controller can 140 battery current and 350 ampere phase current. According to my feelings, the power turned out to be less than the original X controller, do you think it is possible to increase it or does it need to be replaced with an EM150S?
I don't like Nuclear controllers, they are very expensive, ugly, and you have to wait. Votol is very cheap, has different settings, but so far we have not managed to get a lot of power. Also I'm wondering if the location of the current sensor was found in the original X version controller?


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DIY X160?

Post by smdub » Oct 31 2020 3:29pm

Has anyone thought of building a DIY X160 for a little kid?

My kid is 10 and is riding an OSET 20R now. Its small for him riding trails w/ the seat and top speed is low. He rode a friends KLX110 last weekend and loved it. Though he can't shift it, kick start it, or pick it back up when it fell over in a rut. :( He complained about the brakes too (drums suck compared to his OSETs upgraded discs.) So wondering about a bigger electric until hes ready to step up to a gas bike w/ a clutch. I don't really like the DC drive in the OSET so I won't upgrade to a 24R. The KLX110 is 27" seat height. The X160 is 30" so probably still a LITTLE bit tall for him. The X160 also costs as much as a SurRon so I'm tempted to just buy another SurRon and lower it to 160 levels (or maybe even a little more for now.) More pros on converting vs buying a X160 is that it would give us a 2nd big battery and could swap the orig parts back on it as he grows.

For the front end, I could retrofit a single crown fork or drop the oem forks in the triple clamps and put travel limiters in. The rear I can find a shorter shock, just get a shorter spring and run w/ less preload, or even make a new shorter shock link. So the suspension parts seem pretty straightforward w/ several options.

The wheels become the next problem. Doesn't look like I can buy the X160 17" wheels anywhere yet though that is probably the simplest/cheapest option. I could buy the 17" supermoto wheels and put dirt rubber on them? I could also make my own, though that would be the priciest option. Front would be easiest as I can lace any rim (like a YZ80/YZ85 17" or YZ65 14") to a matching hole count 20mm hub. The rear is more tricky. The SurRon hub is 36 hole. I found the CRF150 has a 16" 36 hole rear rim. Or even a 12" KLX110 36h rim. Haven't found a 14" yet. Would have to check the tire diameters available to see what combination works.

Thoughts?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Irling » Nov 01 2020 11:34am

Today I managed to configure the controller, the problem was that the controller incorrectly determined the voltage, 10 volts below the real value, this triggered the overcurrent protection. I changed the value manually and the controller is delivering 140 amps of battery current. The bike is now very dynamic. If anyone wants to use a cheap replacement controller, you can try Votol EM100S-72350 (150A max batt curr.)

Image

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Paulflieg » Nov 01 2020 1:56pm

Irling wrote:
Nov 01 2020 11:34am
Today I managed to configure the controller, the problem was that the controller incorrectly determined the voltage, 10 volts below the real value, this triggered the overcurrent protection. I changed the value manually and the controller is delivering 140 amps of battery current. The bike is now very dynamic. If anyone wants to use a cheap replacement controller, you can try Votol EM100S-72350 (150A max batt curr.)

Image
this is very interesting!!
I wanted to order the em150 ... Hmm ..
If the em100 is already drawing 140 A, that's hardly necessary !?
Is the battery standard? Or modified? Other bms or something?
My X-controller only draws 70 A from the original battery.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Irling » Nov 01 2020 10:22pm

different versions are sold in China, it sounds strange but em100s can have several modifications, usually it is 100 amperes, but I have a 150 ampere version, it was model em100s-72350. Battery is original l1e 2020

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Paulflieg » Nov 02 2020 6:10am

Irling wrote:
Nov 01 2020 10:22pm
different versions are sold in China, it sounds strange but em100s can have several modifications, usually it is 100 amperes, but I have a 150 ampere version, it was model em100s-72350. Battery is original l1e 2020

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Paulflieg » Nov 02 2020 6:12am

Irling wrote:
Nov 01 2020 10:22pm
different versions are sold in China, it sounds strange but em100s can have several modifications, usually it is 100 amperes, but I have a 150 ampere version, it was model em100s-72350. Battery is original l1e 2020
OK, there is the votol controller as s, SP, p .....

Where did you buy it?

I saw an offer for 10 pieces, for 850 EU, on Aliexpress. Nice price

With Votol directly, you have to make an email request.

Would you share the parameters file?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by JuiceMeUp » Nov 02 2020 9:04pm

I haven't been here for a while but a few comments on this page based on my experience:

If your building your own (AUX) battery -
The connectors you want that will plug straight in are the RCPROPLUS brand REB6808 S6 P8 style - expensive but quality.
The stock controller has a low voltage cut off at 49V and can run at 75V (18S) without problems.
I've backpacked 18S as a "I've gone too far - get me home" insurance policy with 1.2 meter extension wire out of it.
Stock battery. BMS trips at between 90 and 110 amps depending on what version you have (140 doesn't seem right assuming it's the stock battery. Even with BMS bypass your cell lifespan is going to be greatly reduced).

Let us know how you go with that controller. Be great to see more options on the market
IMO the Nuclear is awesome if you can get your hands on one. The ASI BAC8000 was garbage, but it did come from ERT so no surprise there.

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