Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.
Drum
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Drum » Apr 16, 2018 3:55 pm

Hi JRH,
Re your idea:
"I've been considering how to implement a mode of throttle that would limit speed near 30mph on flat, but still let it rev out on downhills and not bog down going uphills. Seems that an inclinometer would be the magic component to meet the law's criteria on flat ground while letting it rev out like a gas engine going downhill."

Remember that an inclinometer is basically an accelerometer intended to measure the direction of the "downward" acceleration of gravity. This would work fine on smooth roads at steady speeds, but other accelerations would influence it. As you accelerated the inclinometer would assume you were heading uphill, and as you braked it would assume you were heading downhill. Potholes and other bumps would play havoc with its output momentarily.
You would probably need to average the output over at least one second to reduce the issues caused by bumps, or somehow program it to ignore sudden spikes. The acceleration / deceleration issue probably isn't too bad, but may cause slight control issues.
Maybe instead of an inclinometer, you could use a 3-axis gyro unit from a RC helicopter? I don't know much about these personally, but I know they have been used to enhance stability and "read" angles in many devices and situations.

Dave

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Apr 16, 2018 4:14 pm

johnrobholmes wrote:
Apr 16, 2018 12:26 pm
no more than "30mph on flat ground", no more than 3hp. I've been considering how to implement a mode of throttle that would limit speed near 30mph on flat, but still let it rev out on downhills and not bog down going uphills.
What would you do about it being more than 3 horsepower? 6KW = 8.04 Horsepower. Even if the output is limited to say 2KW, the motor is technically still more than 3hp, not sure if that would pass?

Wouldn't it also need to be titled?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Apr 16, 2018 4:19 pm

Drum wrote:
Apr 16, 2018 3:55 pm
You would probably need to average the output over at least one second to reduce the issues caused by bumps, or somehow program it to ignore sudden spikes.
The Kalman filter works very well for that type of situation:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalman_filter

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by stonezone » Apr 16, 2018 4:52 pm

johnrobholmes wrote:
Apr 15, 2018 3:24 pm
jamilon01 wrote:
Apr 15, 2018 12:50 pm
Lightning does strike twice.... I like johnrobholmes have unpacked my new sur ron only to find my battery completely dead. No screen display on the pack and on a volt meter it read 2 volts. the breaker was off when first unpacked which leads me to believe the pack is somehow faulted. I was able to get it charging after following the low voltage reset procedure with the charger. bike does work and i do love this thing. Just somewhat deflated knowing the pack is faulty. Being the weekend and all im not expecting an immediate response from Luna but i have called and opened a trouble ticket with them.

Thats a bummer to hear. I just had good range testing over the past week, as it was finally not ice and rain all the time :mrgreen: Although our one week of nice weather turned right back into icy rain and snow today :| Seems that the BMS is smart enough to not let the cells get so low as to be damaged, at least thats what I'm sticking with until I have time to throw a CA on the bike and test the real capacity. Trying to stay positive about the situation!

Although I haven't heard back from Gary about the fork, been 1.5 weeks. Eric the owner contacted me and confirmed that Gary would handle it, so I've had contact about it. Just gotta wait on the right man to get the fork trade going I guess.


same thing with a buddies bike arrived saturday... instructions on luna's site how to force a charge with the charger and BAM, good to go. my buddies battery seems fine after a full charge, same range, etc as the others around.
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Apr 16, 2018 6:08 pm

stonezone wrote:
Apr 16, 2018 4:52 pm
instructions on luna's site how to force a charge with the charger and BAM, good to go.
I looked around but not sure which article you are referring to, could you please supply a link?

I just want to be prepared when I receive delivery this week!

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Apr 16, 2018 6:16 pm

Can someone tell me what are the dimensions of the battery pack? I want to order a fireproof box for it. Thanks!

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by jamilon01 » Apr 16, 2018 7:29 pm

3DTOPO wrote:
Apr 16, 2018 6:08 pm
stonezone wrote:
Apr 16, 2018 4:52 pm
instructions on luna's site how to force a charge with the charger and BAM, good to go.
I looked around but not sure which article you are referring to, could you please supply a link?

I just want to be prepared when I receive delivery this week!
Here's the link 3D

https://electricbike.com/forum/forum/kn ... umentation

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by motomoto » Apr 17, 2018 8:11 am

Can someone tell me what are the dimensions of the battery pack? I want to order a fireproof box for it. Thanks!
Really ?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by fechter » Apr 17, 2018 8:20 am

When shipping a pack, regulations require a low state of charge, so expect the packs to be low when they first arrive.
Also consider that most batteries don't deliver their full rated capacity on the first few cycles. It takes about 3 charge/discharge cycles to get them up to normal.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by johnrobholmes » Apr 17, 2018 9:31 am

3DTOPO wrote:
Apr 16, 2018 4:14 pm
johnrobholmes wrote:
Apr 16, 2018 12:26 pm
no more than "30mph on flat ground", no more than 3hp. I've been considering how to implement a mode of throttle that would limit speed near 30mph on flat, but still let it rev out on downhills and not bog down going uphills.
What would you do about it being more than 3 horsepower? 6KW = 8.04 Horsepower. Even if the output is limited to say 2KW, the motor is technically still more than 3hp, not sure if that would pass?

Wouldn't it also need to be titled?
Missouri does not require a title, tags, or insurance for 50cc scooters. The output of the bike is what matters, not the motor rating. Although not surprisingly, Missouri scooters are typically over 3hp anyway. There isn't a 50cc on the market that doesn't put out 5hp at some point on the power curve, but they gearing and rev limit them to 30mph and the state is happy enough.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Apr 17, 2018 2:58 pm

motomoto wrote:
Apr 17, 2018 8:11 am
Can someone tell me what are the dimensions of the battery pack? I want to order a fireproof box for it. Thanks!
Really ?
What's wrong with asking about the dimensions of the battery pack? Seems more on topic than folks recommending what micro-brewery to visit.

Besides just the battery dimensions, I was hoping it might spark discussions concerning the safe charging of the Sur-Ron and what folks have been doing (or not doing).

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Apr 17, 2018 2:59 pm

johnrobholmes wrote:
Apr 17, 2018 9:31 am
3DTOPO wrote:
Apr 16, 2018 4:14 pm
johnrobholmes wrote:
Apr 16, 2018 12:26 pm
no more than "30mph on flat ground", no more than 3hp. I've been considering how to implement a mode of throttle that would limit speed near 30mph on flat, but still let it rev out on downhills and not bog down going uphills.
What would you do about it being more than 3 horsepower? 6KW = 8.04 Horsepower. Even if the output is limited to say 2KW, the motor is technically still more than 3hp, not sure if that would pass?

Wouldn't it also need to be titled?
Missouri does not require a title, tags, or insurance for 50cc scooters. The output of the bike is what matters, not the motor rating. Although not surprisingly, Missouri scooters are typically over 3hp anyway. There isn't a 50cc on the market that doesn't put out 5hp at some point on the power curve, but they gearing and rev limit them to 30mph and the state is happy enough.
Nice! Thanks for the explanation.

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Rix
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Rix » Apr 17, 2018 5:29 pm

Seems more on topic than folks recommending what micro-brewery to visit.
Hey now, thats below the belt :lol: :lol: Just messing with you. For real though, in the past sometimes an individual, trying to collect data for the competition will ask un-common questions like that. Not saying thats the case here, but it has happened before.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Apr 17, 2018 5:51 pm

Rix wrote:
Apr 17, 2018 5:29 pm
Seems more on topic than folks recommending what micro-brewery to visit.
Hey now, thats below the belt :lol: :lol: Just messing with you. For real though, in the past sometimes an individual, trying to collect data for the competition will ask un-common questions like that. Not saying thats the case here, but it has happened before.
Not that I minded the post; it just seemed a worthy defense (I live about an hour from Boise near Crouch by the way). :wink:

No, I'm no competitor to Sur-Ron. Just an excited and eager customer. I'll share some pictures/videos after I get some time on it.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Rix » Apr 17, 2018 9:21 pm

3DTOPO wrote:
Apr 17, 2018 5:51 pm
Rix wrote:
Apr 17, 2018 5:29 pm
Seems more on topic than folks recommending what micro-brewery to visit.
Hey now, thats below the belt :lol: :lol: Just messing with you. For real though, in the past sometimes an individual, trying to collect data for the competition will ask un-common questions like that. Not saying thats the case here, but it has happened before.
Not that I minded the post; it just seemed a worthy defense (I live about an hour from Boise near Crouch by the way). :wink:

No, I'm no competitor to Sur-Ron. Just an excited and eager customer. I'll share some pictures/videos after I get some time on it.
You lucky guy, Crouch is one of the most beautiful places in the state. I love Crouch. I rode dirt bikes up there in the 70s, 80s, and early 90s. What you know as Terrace Lakes was once a great place to ride. Used to unload at the Silver creek plunge and ride from there. There are trail systems all around the middle fork of the Payette river and no doubt, you have lots of places to ride that Sur-Ron of yours. You are one lucky dude man. I am really really looking forward to your pics and around the area. Can't wait to see them.

BTW, the battery is approximately 14.5" X 6" X 5.5".
Last edited by Rix on Apr 17, 2018 9:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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motomoto
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by motomoto » Apr 17, 2018 9:23 pm

Can someone tell me what are the dimensions of the battery pack? I want to order a fireproof box for it. Thanks!
Really ?
What's wrong with asking about the dimensions of the battery pack? Seems more on topic than folks recommending what micro-brewery to visit.

Besides just the battery dimensions, I was hoping it might spark discussions concerning the safe charging of the Sur-Ron and what folks have been doing (or not doing).
Ok, I see your point. I probably have developed an illusion of safety because I think like "18650s", just like a Tesla, they must be safe.
I have 7+ months of charging Sur-ron batteries with careless abandon, I guess I should not get too comfortable.
Last edited by motomoto on Apr 17, 2018 11:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Apr 17, 2018 10:10 pm

Rix wrote:
Apr 17, 2018 9:21 pm
You lucky guy, Crouch is one of the most beautiful places in the state. I love Crouch. I rode dirt bikes up there in the 70s, 80s, and early 90s. What you know as Terrace Lakes was once a great place to ride. Used to unload at the Silver creek plunge and ride from there. There are trail systems all around the middle fork of the Payette river and no doubt, you have lots of places to ride that Sur-Ron of yours. You are one lucky dude man. I am really really looking forward to your pics and around the area. Can't wait to see them.
Oh wow, what a funny coincidence! I actually live like a 1/4 mile up the road from Terrace Lakes. I have a hot-spring that heats my home/office and all my hot water. Thanks! I love it up here, but I also miss having more than like 2 restaurants to choose from!

If I head up the mountain from here, or towards Scriver Creek or the Middle Fork, pretty much endless riding possible.

Image
Rix wrote:
Apr 17, 2018 9:21 pm
BTW, the battery is approximately 14.5" X 6" X 5.5".
Awesome, thanks!

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Apr 17, 2018 10:20 pm

motomoto wrote:
Apr 17, 2018 9:23 pm
Besides just the battery dimensions, I was hoping it might spark discussions concerning the safe charging of the Sur-Ron and what folks have been doing (or not doing).
Ok, I see your point. I probably have developed an illusion of safety because I think "18650s" just like a Tesla, they must be safe.
I have 7+ months of charging Sur-ron batteries with careless abandon, I guess I should not get too comfortable.
Thanks for the info. I'm probably paranoid, but I unplug my DJI drone battery charger if I step out for a bike ride, and the battery pack in a Sur-Ron is a whole lot bigger/more powerful.

If the battery isn't actively being charged, do you think its plenty safe to leave it unprotected in a house if say I have to go to town?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Allex » Apr 18, 2018 6:45 am

Guys, I will always recommend keeping your batteries in a place that you can afford to lose.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Rix » Apr 18, 2018 7:20 am

3DTOPO wrote:
Apr 17, 2018 10:10 pm
Rix wrote:
Apr 17, 2018 9:21 pm
You lucky guy, Crouch is one of the most beautiful places in the state. I love Crouch. I rode dirt bikes up there in the 70s, 80s, and early 90s. What you know as Terrace Lakes was once a great place to ride. Used to unload at the Silver creek plunge and ride from there. There are trail systems all around the middle fork of the Payette river and no doubt, you have lots of places to ride that Sur-Ron of yours. You are one lucky dude man. I am really really looking forward to your pics and around the area. Can't wait to see them.
Oh wow, what a funny coincidence! I actually live like a 1/4 mile up the road from Terrace Lakes. I have a hot-spring that heats my home/office and all my hot water. Thanks! I love it up here, but I also miss having more than like 2 restaurants to choose from!

If I head up the mountain from here, or towards Scriver Creek or the Middle Fork, pretty much endless riding possible.

Image
Rix wrote:
Apr 17, 2018 9:21 pm
BTW, the battery is approximately 14.5" X 6" X 5.5".
Awesome, thanks!
You can always drive into Banks and eat there giving you a 3rd option. Beautiful picture. That probably took some effort to pedal the fat bike in that snow.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by jph3 » Apr 18, 2018 2:33 pm

Got the forks in, and set up the suspension this morning (had about 50 people stopping to ask and ride :D )

I still have one issue with the red bike... power is either on or off based on the cable coming out of the Computer, and if it moves I lose all power to the bike. Not sure if I am going to have to break it open, or replace the entire thing, but its not looking good for that bike right now.
Image

Overall super impressed with the bike. I took it up some single track (in my work clothes) and LOVE the power - wheelied coming off the trail and into the street, luckily no cars! Cant wait to get it on the single-track... will get some drone and GoPro footage here soon, big Moab trip coming up as well.
Image

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by artisanstone » Apr 18, 2018 3:29 pm

I would really like to have more rubber in the back. Anyone think a 110/80 trials tire will fit?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Apr 18, 2018 3:42 pm

jph3 wrote:
Apr 18, 2018 2:33 pm
I still have one issue with the red bike... power is either on or off based on the cable coming out of the Computer, and if it moves I lose all power to the bike. Not sure if I am going to have to break it open, or replace the entire thing, but its not looking good for that bike right now.
This is mentioned in Luna's Sur-Ron documentation:
Cutout: Check the ebrakes. The brake levers are designed to cut power if pulled. In some circumstances such as a crash this connector could come unplugged and the connector may cause intermittent cutout until plugged back into the lever. If you see a cutout, check the ebrake connector! If it is loose of comes out if you pull on it, add a couple drops of superglue to hold it in place.
https://electricbike.com/forum/forum/kn ... umentation

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by johnrobholmes » Apr 18, 2018 4:08 pm

Super moto wheels came in! Nipples are 4.6mm across the flats instead of 4mm like the stock ones. The stock wheels have about 1/3 of the nips rounded off from the factory, these look much better.

Build quality is what we can expect from a Chinese wheel builder. Tension is ok, but varied. A few spokes are “dead” with much lower tension. It would probably ride 1000 miles this way before a wobble or fully loose spoke happened, but just a few minutes will fix it up and give 10,000 miles of hassle free riding.

All in all, nice wheelset. I’m just a wheelbuilder being a picky wheelbuilder :)

I also started building my own wheelset that will be lighter. First try, 5mm too long of spoke. Nuts!
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by gashero » Apr 18, 2018 4:43 pm

new to the forum, just got the light bee couple weeks ago and the weather has not been cooperative but took it out to day and noticed the limp mode ( no more than 25 mph in sport mode) when the state of charge is 40%. Does anyone have this issue.

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