Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

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Aebrennan   100 W

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Aebrennan » Jun 03 2018 7:36pm

3DTOPO wrote:
Jun 03 2018 7:26pm
Aebrennan wrote:
Jun 03 2018 6:56pm
As someone who is dealing directly with the factory and has been a dealer for 6 months I doubt you will be able to get your hands on this version for months.
I appreciate your insight as a dealer, but I would wager a bet that they don't miss their stated June 21st shipping date by months.
Order a bike from the site and we will see...

I was promised a sample FOC controller in January for testing and still haven’t received it.
Good luck!

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Jun 03 2018 7:38pm

Aebrennan wrote:
Jun 03 2018 7:36pm
Order a bike from the site and we will see...
Unfortunately its not quite that straight-forward. I have tried and got up to the point where they don't ship to the US.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Aebrennan » Jun 03 2018 7:51pm

3DTOPO wrote:
Jun 03 2018 7:38pm
Aebrennan wrote:
Jun 03 2018 7:36pm
Order a bike from the site and we will see...
Unfortunately its not quite that straight-forward. I have tried and got up to the point where they don't ship to the US.
I am as surprised as you are!
NOT :roll:

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Jun 03 2018 7:52pm

Aebrennan wrote:
Jun 03 2018 7:51pm
3DTOPO wrote:
Jun 03 2018 7:38pm
Aebrennan wrote:
Jun 03 2018 7:36pm
Order a bike from the site and we will see...
Unfortunately its not quite that straight-forward. I have tried and got up to the point where they don't ship to the US.
I am as surprised as you are!
NOT :roll:
Did I say I was surprised? You are the one who recommended ordering from the site.

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Rix   100 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Rix » Jun 03 2018 8:54pm

I am very surprised. Normally improvements and upgrades are measured in years to come, not batches of shipping product with in the same year. Even if the X model doesn't come out for several more months, look at how far things have come since the first batch. I am impressed.
I know you weren't asking me, but I think you hit the nail on the head. I suspect the new battery pack gives it ~20% more range in addition to the performance improvements you mentioned.
I was thinking that as well.
I was promised a sample FOC controller in January for testing and still haven’t received it.
Good luck!
I know someone else who was too. He was supposed to provide real world rider/dealer R&D feed back on the new controller. Hasn't gotten it yet.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Aebrennan » Jun 03 2018 9:11pm

I just try to share facts from experience but I see most forum members prefer to dream.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Jun 03 2018 10:04pm

Aebrennan wrote:
Jun 03 2018 9:11pm
I just try to share facts from experience but I see most forum members prefer to dream.
No need to get snide. I said I appreciated your insight - but with a shipping date set, I expect them to ship closer to the planned date than months after.

Rix wrote:
Jun 03 2018 8:54pm
I was promised a sample FOC controller in January for testing and still haven’t received it.
Good luck!
I know someone else who was too. He was supposed to provide real world rider/dealer R&D feed back on the new controller. Hasn't gotten it yet.
With a ship date set, I would attribute that to more to them being a relatively small company than the hardware being vaporware.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Hyena » Jun 03 2018 11:17pm

racingame wrote:
Jun 03 2018 6:45pm
This Model X seems to have a different motor as well because they declared 5400 rpm against the 4500 rpm of the standard model.
Yes most likely just field weakening as the others have said. It's well documented you can make a motor spin much faster with the same input voltage and current with field weakening. The rest I suspect would be as Rix said - bigger sprocket for more punch and the field weakening up that top speed. The BMS/battery could be exactly the same. I'd be surprised if the BMS mods are anything more than the equivalent of adding in another shunt like we used to do in the old days to get more power from controllers. If they're not changing the cells that's really all that's needed.
3DTOPO wrote:
Jun 03 2018 10:04pm
with a shipping date set, I expect them to ship closer to the planned date than months after.
What guarantee is a set shipping date though, really ? As someone who's semi-patiently waiting in line for a model 3, I've learned not to treat declared shipping dates as gospel. And after years of dealing with the Chinese you can divide your expectations by at least 2!
As Rix said Surron are already better than many other companies for the rate at which they are making these changes. Even confirming they'll implement just about every single thing we asked for after we first started riding these bikes is pretty damn good. I think Adam is right that the marketing hype is ahead of what the factory can actually ship. Everyone is keen on the road going light bee but don't forget the white ghost was announced as 'coming soon' before the bee was in production, and there's still not even a sample of the ghost ready to be shipped yet! (which is a bummer because I'm really keen to see/ride one! )
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by macribs » Jun 04 2018 1:18am

Rix wrote:
Jun 03 2018 4:41pm
macribs wrote:
Jun 03 2018 1:21pm
About the new model X battery pack. What exactly did change? They really didn't share much. What are the new numbers for this new battery pack?
Looking at the pics of the X version, it appears they are also running a 58T rear sprocket along with the FOC controller, DNM forks and upgraded, my guess is part of the performance increase comes from field weakening of the controller which allows the X to maintain the top speed of a standard Lightbee with a 48T and the larger 58T rear sprocket gives it a lot more punch in the process. I think the improved battery pack is the smallest part of the performance equation. What do you think?
Yeah I did see the other upgrades and I agree those where nice ones. Reason I asked about the battery is that there was nothing of substance on the battery. If they would have said the new pack got 15% higher C rate, or 12% more range or 20% higher voltage it would be easier to grasp. Rather they used some wage term like "imported batteries". Well that term does not quantify improvements nor gives any baseline for calculating upgrade costs.

I asked about the battery because hotrodding sur ron might take you to the limit of the battery pack. And as with any e-bike the battery pack is the single most expensive part. So knowing what kind of improvements that are done to the pack is of high importance in my eyes.

If sur ron keeps upgrading, and keep pushing this hard we might be looking on the next huawei/xiaomi/1+ of the e-bike world. And I mean that in the best possible way. Sur Ron could be changing the business and the world of e-bikes. They will be true rock stars of the industry.
Last edited by macribs on Jun 04 2018 1:32am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by macribs » Jun 04 2018 1:25am

racingame wrote:
Jun 03 2018 6:45pm
3DTOPO wrote:
Jun 03 2018 4:13pm
Who started selling them, Luna? I saw on the Chinese site that they are selling the gold chain and the seat. If Luna offered the new controller, seat and chain I would order them. The battery is such an expensive component, I don't think I would order it since I am pretty content with the range it has now, instead I would opt for ordering a whole new model X since I want a second one anyway.
I meant the Chinese site is selling them. This Model X seems to have a different motor as well because they declared 5400 rpm against the 4500 rpm of the standard model. They should really make an English translation with all the specs in evidence for the international public. I got the impression it's kinda a marketing move to leave things a bit unclear; I'd like to know how the regenerative brake was added.

This is also why I asked about the new batterypack. Increase in RPM could be related to higher voltage in the new batterypack.
Last edited by macribs on Jun 04 2018 1:27am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Jun 04 2018 1:26am

Hyena wrote:
Jun 03 2018 11:17pm
racingame wrote:
Jun 03 2018 6:45pm
This Model X seems to have a different motor as well because they declared 5400 rpm against the 4500 rpm of the standard model.
Yes most likely just field weakening as the others have said. It's well documented you can make a motor spin much faster with the same input voltage and current with field weakening. The rest I suspect would be as Rix said - bigger sprocket for more punch and the field weakening up that top speed. The BMS/battery could be exactly the same. I'd be surprised if the BMS mods are anything more than the equivalent of adding in another shunt like we used to do in the old days to get more power from controllers. If they're not changing the cells that's really all that's needed.
I think I was the first one to mention field weakening in this thread (end of page 35). :P

The reason why I suspect it has a new BMS is from the following according to Sur-Ron. BTW: is it pronounced Sir-Ron or Sure-Ron??
battery management system ... increased single-chip 485 communications, ensure high power load capacity of the battery pack ... and its cruising range is 20% higher than that of the Standard Lightning Bee.
3DTOPO wrote:
Jun 03 2018 10:04pm
with a shipping date set, I expect them to ship closer to the planned date than months after.
What guarantee is a set shipping date though, really ? As someone who's semi-patiently waiting in line for a model 3, I've learned not to treat declared shipping dates as gospel. And after years of dealing with the Chinese you can divide your expectations by at least 2!
As Rix said Surron are already better than many other companies for the rate at which they are making these changes. Even confirming they'll implement just about every single thing we asked for after we first started riding these bikes is pretty damn good. I think Adam is right that the marketing hype is ahead of what the factory can actually ship. Everyone is keen on the road going light bee but don't forget the white ghost was announced as 'coming soon' before the bee was in production, and there's still not even a sample of the ghost ready to be shipped yet! (which is a bummer because I'm really keen to see/ride one! )
I did not at all mean to imply the ship date is guaranteed. I could certainly be wrong, but I think they will make their delivery date within weeks of the date set, opposed to months.

Congrats on the Tesla! I hope my next vehicle is a Tesla; but I really need more ground clearance than they currently offer. Anyhow; when you place a pre-order for the Model 3, I assume the estimated ship date was what, a year out? The longer the ship date is in the future, I would think the more uncertainty. With the Light Bee X, they are estimating the ship date to be less than a month out.

In any event; as you and others have mentioned, its a very exciting announcement, even if the ship date slips. In the meantime, I am perfectly happy with my ride. I'll just wait as needed before I order a second one.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Allex » Jun 04 2018 3:54am

I will get my FOC controllers from the factory next week(if they did not forgot to pack them in), will test them out for sure!
What Ghost is delayed because they will do a complete redesign of the powertrain and this prolly means the chassis as well. This because they thought it was underpowered.
Jay, its good that model 3 is delayed, that car is shit anyway with all its flaws :wink:

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by n2mb » Jun 04 2018 8:40am

Allex wrote:
Jun 04 2018 3:54am
Jay, its good that model 3 is delayed, that car is shit anyway with all its flaws :wink:
I drove my friend to pick up his Model 3 and the car was flawless. We crawled all over it looking for problems, but couldn't find any.

But, I agree. The longer you wait, the more improvements they make! They just upgraded the suspension and rear seats...

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Rix » Jun 04 2018 2:37pm

n2mb wrote:
Jun 04 2018 8:40am
Allex wrote:
Jun 04 2018 3:54am
Jay, its good that model 3 is delayed, that car is shit anyway with all its flaws :wink:
I drove my friend to pick up his Model 3 and the car was flawless. We crawled all over it looking for problems, but couldn't find any.

But, I agree. The longer you wait, the more improvements they make! They just upgraded the suspension and rear seats...
I drove my friend to pick up his Model 3 and the car was flawless. We crawled all over it looking for problems, but couldn't find any.
I think Allex was being facetious.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Rix » Jun 04 2018 2:41pm

Allex wrote:
Jun 04 2018 3:54am
I will get my FOC controllers from the factory next week(if they did not forgot to pack them in), will test them out for sure!
What Ghost is delayed because they will do a complete redesign of the powertrain and this prolly means the chassis as well. This because they thought it was underpowered.
Jay, its good that model 3 is delayed, that car is shit anyway with all its flaws :wink:
Thats funny, you were the one I was referencing. Didn't want to say it out loud.

Artisanstone
My 9 year old is riding mine as of today. 20 min practice in eco mode, then had him switch to sport mode. He did just fine. 58T sprocket. I have to say though, that his first ride was a 12.5 oset at age 2. Still, I was amazed how well he handled it.
I am going out on a limb here and bet that the power to weight ratio with your 9 year old boy at the handlebars is very high.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by n2mb » Jun 04 2018 2:41pm

Rix wrote:
Jun 04 2018 2:37pm
I think Allex was being facetious.
Whoops .Didn't get the joke.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by artisanstone » Jun 04 2018 3:43pm

Rix wrote:
Jun 04 2018 2:41pm
Allex wrote:
Jun 04 2018 3:54am
I will get my FOC controllers from the factory next week(if they did not forgot to pack them in), will test them out for sure!
What Ghost is delayed because they will do a complete redesign of the powertrain and this prolly means the chassis as well. This because they thought it was underpowered.
Jay, its good that model 3 is delayed, that car is shit anyway with all its flaws :wink:
Thats funny, you were the one I was referencing. Didn't want to say it out loud.

Artisanstone
My 9 year old is riding mine as of today. 20 min practice in eco mode, then had him switch to sport mode. He did just fine. 58T sprocket. I have to say though, that his first ride was a 12.5 oset at age 2. Still, I was amazed how well he handled it.
I am going out on a limb here and bet that the power to weight ratio with your 9 year old boy at the handlebars is very high.
It is I'm sure. He has good throttle control and some pretty good respect for it. He's been slowly ramping up. I can hear the wheelspins and motor sound increasing. He's a good mix of cautious and confident.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Rix » Jun 04 2018 9:43pm

n2mb wrote:
Jun 04 2018 2:41pm
Rix wrote:
Jun 04 2018 2:37pm
I think Allex was being facetious.
Whoops .Didn't get the joke.
Its okay, if I didn't know Allex, I would think the same.

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Rix   100 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Rix » Jun 04 2018 9:44pm

It is I'm sure. He has good throttle control and some pretty good respect for it. He's been slowly ramping up. I can hear the wheelspins and motor sound increasing. He's a good mix of cautious and confident.
And that makes for a smart and fast rider. Any idea if your son will race MCs down the road?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Alex Imreh » Jun 05 2018 4:15am

srwb.jpg
srwb.jpg (164.22 KiB) Viewed 1270 times
About size, i measured my DRZ400SM it is around 210long, i tried to search wheelbase of KTM, Yamaha WR enduro bikes to compare with little SurRon.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by n2mb » Jun 05 2018 9:28am

Alex Imreh wrote:
Jun 05 2018 4:15am
srwb.jpg

About size, i measured my DRZ400SM it is around 210long, i tried to search wheelbase of KTM, Yamaha WR enduro bikes to compare with little SurRon.
Interesting. Does it seem like a small bike? I compared the measurements to my mountain bike, and it seems significantly larger. About 6 feet long and higher than the mountain bike.

Do you think it would be out of place parking it at a bike rack?

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Rix   100 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Rix » Jun 05 2018 9:34am

Alex Imreh wrote:
Jun 05 2018 4:15am
srwb.jpg

About size, i measured my DRZ400SM it is around 210long, i tried to search wheelbase of KTM, Yamaha WR enduro bikes to compare with little SurRon.
This bike is almost identical in size to the Honda CRF150F, except it don't weigh 238 pounds, more like 100-110 pounds or so.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Rix » Jun 05 2018 9:37am

n2mb wrote:
Jun 05 2018 9:28am
Alex Imreh wrote:
Jun 05 2018 4:15am
srwb.jpg

About size, i measured my DRZ400SM it is around 210long, i tried to search wheelbase of KTM, Yamaha WR enduro bikes to compare with little SurRon.
Interesting. Does it seem like a small bike? I compared the measurements to my mountain bike, and it seems significantly larger. About 6 feet long and higher than the mountain bike.

Do you think it would be out of place parking it at a bike rack?
The only way these machines wont stand out at a bike rack is if there are other Sur-Rons at the bike rack. These machines are real attention getters. I get questioned and sometimes asked to stop when I haul my bike some where on the hitch hauler.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Dext3r » Jun 05 2018 11:33am

Great.
I want one if they are street legal and easily tuned (for commuting 50km/a day).

Annyone take a look at this bike?
http://ekrossbikes.com/catalog/e-kross-pozitive-md/

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by scrambler » Jun 05 2018 11:46am

Dext3r wrote:
Jun 05 2018 11:33am
Annyone take a look at this bike?
http://ekrossbikes.com/catalog/e-kross-pozitive-md/
Same as the vector Vortex
http://www.vectorebike.com/bikes/vortex.html

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