Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

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Offroader   10 MW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Oct 31 2018 12:42pm

BCTECH wrote:
Oct 31 2018 12:38pm
Allex wrote:
Oct 31 2018 10:37am
You can re-cell the packs with better cells, Sanyo GA cells have same performance as stock Panasonic PF but you get 37Ah instead of 32
how difficult to swap the cells ? are they all spot welded ?
What I would try first is to get a new battery case somehow. Hopefully someone can sell just the case, this way you can keep your original battery and have a new battery.

I would then fill the new case up with cells and pack the cells tight together. There really is no reason to use spacers as you really don't need the cooling.

I still want to know how many cells someone can squeeze tightly inside the battery pack.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » Oct 31 2018 1:57pm

Offroader wrote:
Oct 31 2018 12:42pm
BCTECH wrote:
Oct 31 2018 12:38pm
Allex wrote:
Oct 31 2018 10:37am
You can re-cell the packs with better cells, Sanyo GA cells have same performance as stock Panasonic PF but you get 37Ah instead of 32
how difficult to swap the cells ? are they all spot welded ?
What I would try first is to get a new battery case somehow. Hopefully someone can sell just the case, this way you can keep your original battery and have a new battery.

I would then fill the new case up with cells and pack the cells tight together. There really is no reason to use spacers as you really don't need the cooling.

I still want to know how many cells someone can squeeze tightly inside the battery pack.
motomoto made a 3d printed copy of the Sur-Ron battery case :
https://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/v ... 0#p1386831
some ride & sk8 videos:
metacafe.com/channels/NATAS666DAMIEN
http://www.youtube.com/natas666damien
i have nothing for sale.. :)

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Oct 31 2018 7:24pm

Can a 3d printed battery case really be strong enough to hold up? I didn't think 3d printed plastic was that strong.

Someone is going to have to make these as there will probably be a lot of demand for them. I doubt Sur-Ron is going to put them out there for "Do It Yourself" battery builders .

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Oct 31 2018 7:32pm

fechter wrote:
Oct 31 2018 9:22am
The physics is pretty straightforward. Slower speed or bigger battery are your two main options.
Personally, I am pretty content with the range, but I think it would be awesome if someone developed auxiliary side packs. Two 10 pound packs (one on each side) could give the bike 50% more range and I don't think it would dramatically change the bike's handling if mounted on each side of the pack.

fechter wrote:
Oct 31 2018 9:22am
The efficiency gain from a sine wave controller is pretty small.
In steep areas such as where I live, the regenerative breaking from the sine wave controller does make a difference.

A ride that was about 8 miles and 2400 vertical feet took 31% of my battery getting up there. Getting home with the regen breaking took 0% battery even though I gave it some throttle on flatish areas. Without regen it would have taken about 5% of the pack to get home. On flat terrains, I don't think it would add much.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Rix » Oct 31 2018 8:58pm

In steep areas such as where I live, the regenerative breaking from the sine wave controller does make a difference.

A ride that was about 8 miles and 2400 vertical feet took 31% of my battery getting up there. Getting home with the regen breaking took 0% battery even though I gave it some throttle on flatish areas. Without regen it would have taken about 5% of the pack to get home. On flat terrains, I don't think it would add much.
You were right about the throttle regen, my Alta has/does this, and on really hilly terrain, I make up a lot of charge on the descents. I can control descent regen with twisting the throttle.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by fechter » Oct 31 2018 9:27pm

I agree and was just thinking about flat ground. Regen should work really well with the Sur-ron.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by captnshrms » Nov 01 2018 3:33am

After about 1000 miles I've logged every trip and how many miles I'm at when my battery hits 20% (I use it for work, so I pretty much do this daily). And it's 24, 25 or 26 miles, and it's 25 miles 90% of the time. (That's Sur-ron miles, so minus 10% and obiviously fractions of miles aren't tracked). Sometimes I'm on all 45 mph roads and wide open throttle, sometimes I'm on a paved bike trail, not going over 25 mph and rarely stopping, and sometimes I'm in stop and go city traffic, with lots of fast acceleration and stopping.

I just found it weird that I don't really have a range, granted most of the driving is similar, but the odd driving styles I would think provide more and less range. I have a good loop so WOT was easy to test, very few stoplights, which might be why it isn't worse mileage? It's confusing to me.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Nov 01 2018 3:47am

captnshrms wrote:
Nov 01 2018 3:33am
After about 1000 miles I've logged every trip and how many miles I'm at when my battery hits 20% (I use it for work, so I pretty much do this daily). And it's 24, 25 or 26 miles, and it's 25 miles 90% of the time. (That's Sur-ron miles, so minus 10% and obiviously fractions of miles aren't tracked). Sometimes I'm on all 45 mph roads and wide open throttle, sometimes I'm on a paved bike trail, not going over 25 mph and rarely stopping, and sometimes I'm in stop and go city traffic, with lots of fast acceleration and stopping.

I just found it weird that I don't really have a range, granted most of the driving is similar, but the odd driving styles I would think provide more and less range. I have a good loop so WOT was easy to test, very few stoplights, which might be why it isn't worse mileage? It's confusing to me.
Here is a dyno graph motomoto posted:
Image

If I am reading it correctly, anything over 12-14mph (not sure what the difference of the blue/orange is, maybe two takes?), it looks like it is drawing 3.2KW (4.25HP) up to 35mph. Then over 35mph, the horsepower diminishes. I suspect even though the horsepower is diminishing, I bet it is still drawing at least ~3.2kw, it is just less efficient.

So what it means to me (and I could be wrong) is that anything over 15 mph is going to drain the battery at approximately the same rate. The only real difference would be if you switched it to EP mode. It would be interesting to see what EP mode did on the same dyno, but in my experience, it gives about 50% more range, not double...

Thoughts? Corrections? Interpretations?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by liveforphysics » Nov 01 2018 4:45am

Not reading chart correctly.
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Nov 01 2018 5:07am

liveforphysics wrote:
Nov 01 2018 4:45am
Not reading chart correctly.
Any chance of elaborating?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by macribs » Nov 01 2018 5:46am

Offroader wrote:
Oct 31 2018 7:24pm
Can a 3d printed battery case really be strong enough to hold up? I didn't think 3d printed plastic was that strong.

Someone is going to have to make these as there will probably be a lot of demand for them. I doubt Sur-Ron is going to put them out there for "Do It Yourself" battery builders .
3D printing can be done with a vast choice of materials. All kinds of plastic and nylons to metal blends. I am sure they will find strong candidates to choose from. I myself never done 3D printing so I don't know much about it, but I read about the metal and abs plastic and they seems to very tough.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by liveforphysics » Nov 01 2018 8:42am

3DTOPO wrote:
Nov 01 2018 5:07am
liveforphysics wrote:
Nov 01 2018 4:45am
Not reading chart correctly.
Any chance of elaborating?
Sure, you don't have anything from that dyno plot to give you any indication of efficiency values.
Each carcinogen vapor exposure includes a dice roll for cancer.

Each mutagen vapor exposure includes a dice roll for reproductive genetic defects in your children.

Each engine start sprays them into a shared atmosphere which includes beings not offered an opportunity to consent accepting these cancer experiences and defective genetics life experiences.

Every post is a free gift to the collective of minds composing the living bleeding edge of LEV development on our spaceship.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by captnshrms » Nov 01 2018 12:44pm

3DTOPO wrote:
Nov 01 2018 3:47am
captnshrms wrote:
Nov 01 2018 3:33am
After about 1000 miles I've logged every trip and how many miles I'm at when my battery hits 20% (I use it for work, so I pretty much do this daily). And it's 24, 25 or 26 miles, and it's 25 miles 90% of the time. (That's Sur-ron miles, so minus 10% and obiviously fractions of miles aren't tracked). Sometimes I'm on all 45 mph roads and wide open throttle, sometimes I'm on a paved bike trail, not going over 25 mph and rarely stopping, and sometimes I'm in stop and go city traffic, with lots of fast acceleration and stopping.

I just found it weird that I don't really have a range, granted most of the driving is similar, but the odd driving styles I would think provide more and less range. I have a good loop so WOT was easy to test, very few stoplights, which might be why it isn't worse mileage? It's confusing to me.
Here is a dyno graph motomoto posted:
Image

If I am reading it correctly, anything over 12-14mph (not sure what the difference of the blue/orange is, maybe two takes?), it looks like it is drawing 3.2KW (4.25HP) up to 35mph. Then over 35mph, the horsepower diminishes. I suspect even though the horsepower is diminishing, I bet it is still drawing at least ~3.2kw, it is just less efficient.

So what it means to me (and I could be wrong) is that anything over 15 mph is going to drain the battery at approximately the same rate. The only real difference would be if you switched it to EP mode. It would be interesting to see what EP mode did on the same dyno, but in my experience, it gives about 50% more range, not double...

Thoughts? Corrections? Interpretations?
Interesting, is that a regular or an x controller (and does an x controller really make 20% more power, a spurious claim I believe)? I also find it odd it's getting the same top speed on a dyno, without wind drag or rolling resistance of the front wheel, somethings I've always suspected were negligible on this bike. I usually go on a bike ride at night, perhaps I'll put it into eco mode and go on the paved trails again, when I tested 20mph with no stops or slowdowns I WAS in sport mode and I didn't get a single extra mile out of it. That graph explains a lot.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by captnshrms » Nov 01 2018 1:08pm

Offroader wrote:
Oct 31 2018 7:24pm
Can a 3d printed battery case really be strong enough to hold up? I didn't think 3d printed plastic was that strong.

Someone is going to have to make these as there will probably be a lot of demand for them. I doubt Sur-Ron is going to put them out there for "Do It Yourself" battery builders .
You can 3d print out of many different materials, but even the cheapest 3d printer should be able to print a box strong enough... The cells shouldn't move much in the box, and the box shouldn't move much in the frame, there shouldn't be much stress on it.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Nov 01 2018 3:24pm

Are you saying you guys are getting about 25 mile range when riding the bike hard or fast on the street? That is a low range.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Nov 01 2018 5:28pm

liveforphysics wrote:
Nov 01 2018 8:42am
3DTOPO wrote:
Nov 01 2018 5:07am
liveforphysics wrote:
Nov 01 2018 4:45am
Not reading chart correctly.
Any chance of elaborating?
Sure, you don't have anything from that dyno plot to give you any indication of efficiency values.
I realize that; I suppose I should have stated it is drawing at least 3.2KW over 12-14mph.

I mentioned that I was guessing about the efficiency: "Then over 35mph, the horsepower diminishes. I suspect even though the horsepower is diminishing, I bet it is still drawing at least ~3.2kw, it is just less efficient.".

It doesn't really change the point I was trying to make and that is over 12-14 mph it looks like it is drawing at least 3.2kw. Drawing at 3.2kw+ is going to drain a 2kw/h battery pretty rapidly...

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by captnshrms » Nov 01 2018 7:42pm

Offroader wrote:
Nov 01 2018 3:24pm
Are you saying you guys are getting about 25 mile range when riding the bike hard or fast on the street? That is a low range.
25 miles to 20% (Sur-ron miles, so minus 10%). And this seems to be about what everyone is getting in sport mode, regardless of riding type, on or off road, riding 20 mph the whole time or riding 40 mph/top speed the whole time. I have documented 35 runs all within a 2 mile range, all sorts of different types of riding, but always in sport mode the entire time, I thought a 20mph run would get better mileage than a 40mph run.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by captnshrms » Nov 01 2018 7:47pm

3DTOPO wrote:
Nov 01 2018 5:28pm
liveforphysics wrote:
Nov 01 2018 8:42am
3DTOPO wrote:
Nov 01 2018 5:07am
liveforphysics wrote:
Nov 01 2018 4:45am
Not reading chart correctly.
Any chance of elaborating?
Sure, you don't have anything from that dyno plot to give you any indication of efficiency values.
I realize that; I suppose I should have stated it is drawing at least 3.2KW over 12-14mph.

I mentioned that I was guessing about the efficiency: "Then over 35mph, the horsepower diminishes. I suspect even though the horsepower is diminishing, I bet it is still drawing at least ~3.2kw, it is just less efficient.".

It doesn't really change the point I was trying to make and that is over 12-14 mph it looks like it is drawing at least 3.2kw. Drawing at 3.2kw+ is going to drain a 2kw/h battery pretty rapidly...
Dyno runs are done at WOT with full acceleration though, right? That's the power used to accelerate through that mph, but certainly holding at that mph (say 20?) should draw less?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Jonathan1981 » Nov 01 2018 8:51pm

macribs wrote:
Nov 01 2018 5:46am
Offroader wrote:
Oct 31 2018 7:24pm
Can a 3d printed battery case really be strong enough to hold up? I didn't think 3d printed plastic was that strong.

Someone is going to have to make these as there will probably be a lot of demand for them. I doubt Sur-Ron is going to put them out there for "Do It Yourself" battery builders .
3D printing can be done with a vast choice of materials. All kinds of plastic and nylons to metal blends. I am sure they will find strong candidates to choose from. I myself never done 3D printing so I don't know much about it, but I read about the metal and abs plastic and they seems to very tough.
A raw 3D printed FDM part from a home printer, for a thin walled, tall part WILL 100% not be strong enough out of printer without post op work. Good news is, it's VERY easy to make a REALLY strong part like this. 1-2 layers of fibreglass will do the trick, I do it all the time for thin parts like fenders/fairings, .06 thick out of printer..... it works like a charm, the FG holds the layers together yet still allows for some flex. If you want to get fancy, finish with some bondo and paint :) and you'll have a fully usable custom part..

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by liveforphysics » Nov 01 2018 10:49pm

3DTOPO wrote:
Nov 01 2018 5:28pm
liveforphysics wrote:
Nov 01 2018 8:42am
3DTOPO wrote:
Nov 01 2018 5:07am
liveforphysics wrote:
Nov 01 2018 4:45am
Not reading chart correctly.
Any chance of elaborating?

Sure, you don't have anything from that dyno plot to give you any indication of efficiency values.
I realize that; I suppose I should have stated it is drawing at least 3.2KW over 12-14mph.

I mentioned that I was guessing about the efficiency: "Then over 35mph, the horsepower diminishes. I suspect even though the horsepower is diminishing, I bet it is still drawing at least ~3.2kw, it is just less efficient.".

It doesn't really change the point I was trying to make and that is over 12-14 mph it looks like it is drawing at least 3.2kw. Drawing at 3.2kw+ is going to drain a 2kw/h battery pretty rapidly...
The efficiency is not decaying on the high speed side of the dyno, its motor BEMF nearly pack voltage. The most probable point of low efficiency would be the lowest RPM it makes full output power (meaning highest phase current), but the flatness shows its riding its battery current limiter from low speed until BEMF growth tapers its ability to drive current into the motor.

As I've tested the motor at 730amps phase and it's still not fully saturated, on the stock 150amps phase the motor is never feeling remotely stressed or operating near non-linear efficiency or saturation.
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Each mutagen vapor exposure includes a dice roll for reproductive genetic defects in your children.

Each engine start sprays them into a shared atmosphere which includes beings not offered an opportunity to consent accepting these cancer experiences and defective genetics life experiences.

Every post is a free gift to the collective of minds composing the living bleeding edge of LEV development on our spaceship.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by DanGT86 » Nov 02 2018 9:15am

LFP, from what you have seen on this bike with your high power testing, would you consider the motor a good candidate for a non Sur-Ron conversion or is it just impressive for the stock hardware on that bike?

Basically, if someone were doing a full size MX bike conversion at say 20-30kw would this be a motor you would recommend before something like a 75-5 or ME1304?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Nov 02 2018 11:06am

captnshrms wrote:
Nov 01 2018 7:42pm
Offroader wrote:
Nov 01 2018 3:24pm
Are you saying you guys are getting about 25 mile range when riding the bike hard or fast on the street? That is a low range.
25 miles to 20% (Sur-ron miles, so minus 10%). And this seems to be about what everyone is getting in sport mode, regardless of riding type, on or off road, riding 20 mph the whole time or riding 40 mph/top speed the whole time. I have documented 35 runs all within a 2 mile range, all sorts of different types of riding, but always in sport mode the entire time, I thought a 20mph run would get better mileage than a 40mph run.
What doesn't make sense is I would expect the range to be higher.

My 8KW hub motor bike, which I drive extremly hard, which has field weakening with the max-e to get me to 55MPH on a 17" wheel. I also have a fan cooled motor so I it doesn't over heat.

I get 50 miles range with a 3KWH pack.

The Sur-Ron which doesn't have strong field weakening if at all, limited to 6KW, is only getting 25 Miles with a 2KWH pack?

I would expect the Sur-Ron to get a lot more considering its limited to 6KW, and has no field weakening. With field weakening I'm pushing 8KW constantly on the street, wile the Sur-Ron is probably using a lot less at top speeds, like 3KW.

Something isn't adding up here.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by liveforphysics » Nov 02 2018 12:20pm

DanGT86 wrote:
Nov 02 2018 9:15am
LFP, from what you have seen on this bike with your high power testing, would you consider the motor a good candidate for a non Sur-Ron conversion or is it just impressive for the stock hardware on that bike?

Basically, if someone were doing a full size MX bike conversion at say 20-30kw would this be a motor you would recommend before something like a 75-5 or ME1304?
It's a potent little motor. I would use something bigger and single stage reduction for a full sized MX bike though. 75-5 or 75-7 are like having a few Sur Ron motors in 1 motor.
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Each mutagen vapor exposure includes a dice roll for reproductive genetic defects in your children.

Each engine start sprays them into a shared atmosphere which includes beings not offered an opportunity to consent accepting these cancer experiences and defective genetics life experiences.

Every post is a free gift to the collective of minds composing the living bleeding edge of LEV development on our spaceship.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Nov 02 2018 5:01pm

Offroader wrote:
Nov 02 2018 11:06am

My 8KW hub motor bike, which I drive extremly hard, which has field weakening with the max-e to get me to 55MPH on a 17" wheel. I also have a fan cooled motor so I it doesn't over heat.

I get 50 miles range with a 3KWH pack.

Something isn't adding up here.
Do you have a log to see how much energy is actually being delivered to the motor?

Just because its an 8kw motor doesn't mean its drawing 8kw. At 8kw you would have a runtime of 22.5 minutes with a 3kw/h battery. That means to cover 50-miles at 8kw, you would have to do 133MPH! Simple math - that does add up.

Since people are getting a 25-mile range on the Sur-Ron, then with a 3kw/h battery it could do close to 40 miles as well. :roll:
liveforphysics wrote:
Nov 02 2018 12:20pm
DanGT86 wrote:
Nov 02 2018 9:15am
LFP, from what you have seen on this bike with your high power testing, would you consider the motor a good candidate for a non Sur-Ron conversion or is it just impressive for the stock hardware on that bike?

Basically, if someone were doing a full size MX bike conversion at say 20-30kw would this be a motor you would recommend before something like a 75-5 or ME1304?
It's a potent little motor. I would use something bigger and single stage reduction for a full sized MX bike though. 75-5 or 75-7 are like having a few Sur Ron motors in 1 motor.
I bet Sur Ron's larger power systems are beasts! Their biggest is 14kw continuous and 28kw peak:

https://evnerds.com/electric-vehicles/e ... companies/

If you were able to push 28kw through the small one, I can even imagine what the big one could do hot-rodded! :twisted:

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by pipeking » Nov 02 2018 6:41pm

3DTOPO wrote:
Oct 31 2018 7:32pm
fechter wrote:
Oct 31 2018 9:22am
The physics is pretty straightforward. Slower speed or bigger battery are your two main options.
Personally, I am pretty content with the range, but I think it would be awesome if someone developed auxiliary side packs. Two 10 pound packs (one on each side) could give the bike 50% more range and I don't think it would dramatically change the bike's handling if mounted on each side of the pack.
This was what I was thinking too, or even a pack that you could carry easy enough in a backpack. Like 5kgs (10pounds) I'm not sure if I'm clever enough to try to build a battery from scratch, but what I wanted to know was, does the BMS part matter? Can you unplug the main battery feed and plug another battery onto it just like that? Or is it more complicated?
fechter wrote:
Oct 31 2018 9:27pm
I agree and was just thinking about flat ground. Regen should work really well with the Sur-ron.
Yes I think so too, I want to try the new controller out and see if that makes a difference. I'm not sure how long I'm going to have to wait though, it sounds like they are in short supply.

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