Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

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skeetab5780   10 MW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by skeetab5780 » Nov 07 2018 9:18am

fechter wrote:
Nov 06 2018 7:42pm
3DTOPO wrote:
Nov 06 2018 5:41pm

I'm pretty sure that if you ride the Sur-Ron on any public streets in the US you will still need "moped" insurance (and possibly plates depending on the state), and a motorcycle endorsement in some states.
Correct.

In California, you only need a regular driver's license, plates and insurance. My insurance was $79/year.
Well that's completely different here in MA. I have a few Voloci's on the road as mopeds...It cost $40 for a 2 year sticker and you do not need any insurance at all or a plate or an inspection or anything. Cops do not bother with you unless your riding on a sidewalk or something real bad

Fetcher how did you get yours registered with no VIN# you applied thru CA state laws?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by skeetab5780 » Nov 07 2018 9:34am

3DTOPO wrote:
Nov 06 2018 5:41pm
skeetab5780 wrote:
Nov 06 2018 2:20pm
Im not sure i can relate to the homolgation costing more since that does not really matter here in the states.
Did I miss something? If you are in the states, why not purchase from Luna? They are $3,890 - that is a pretty far cry from $6,000.
I am in the states I'm just speaking out about how ridiculous $5900 is for a street legal version over the actual price tag. But I was not aware that the original Sur-ron does not have a VIN# or serial#? is that true? You get this bike with no certificate of origin at all? Seems odd but then again I do not own one.

So anyone riding a Sur-ron on the road in USA either went thru their states application process for this to get it legal? You may even be able to use a serial number in place of the VIN# on the registration.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by n2mb » Nov 07 2018 10:02am

efMX Trials Electric Freeride wrote:
Nov 06 2018 11:51pm
VIN number just makes registration easier and more likely to be approved, in many states.. ppl were following the example of those that were already approved but not getting the same results, having to contest the denial and resubmit .. also those approved maybe stretching the truth a bit on their application, since the stock bike has a bit more power and speed capability than technically compliant (45mph, 6hp)..
Actually, it's only 5 HP peak. People have measured it at about 63A peak, 60V (not counting sag), so 3780 watts, 5 HP.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by fechter » Nov 07 2018 11:20am

skeetab5780 wrote:
Nov 07 2018 9:18am
Fetcher how did you get yours registered with no VIN# you applied thru CA state laws?
I just entered the serial number in the space for VIN on the registration form. In the space for "special features" I put "electric".
DMV system apparently doesn't support dashes or spaces in the name so the registration shows the manufacturer as "SURRO"

When applying use SURRON for the manufacturer and LIGHTBEE for the model.

I also incorrectly stated you don't need a motorcycle endorsement on your driver's license. You do. Either M1 or M2 is required for a moped.

Maximum speed allowed is 30mph. 2hp max power. We're bending the rules a bit here but in EP mode it's pretty close. Also the power input to the controller will be quite a bit more than what you get at the wheel.

I also suspect the state would want all the required safety equipment to be present. Brake light, tail light, head light, turn signals, mirrors and some reflectors. While mine may not all be DOT approved, they are there and from a distance look good enough to not get pulled over.
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Nov 07 2018 5:21pm

macribs wrote:
Nov 07 2018 7:03am
Be aware of alibaba. If Alibaba didn't recently change their policies alibaba does not provide any help if you are scammed.
I have used Alibaba numerous times and never had an issue with them. The most notorious cases of scam usually have to do with imitation name brands - like a Gucci bag that is not made by Gucci and cost 25% of what the name brand cost. If it’s too good to be true, it probably is.

You can also see how long the business has been operating on Alibaba, and what their ratings are. If you don’t trust the company, I wouldn’t bother with them, but you can use Alibaba’s Escrow payment system for protection.

I could be wrong, but I suspect that the Alibaba seller is directly related to Qiulong Technology (Sur Ron). Don’t forget that Sur Ron was founded by one of the main people at Alibaba.


macribs wrote:
Nov 07 2018 7:15am
3DTOPO wrote:
Nov 07 2018 1:28am
I got a price for the X Model from Alibaba. It is $2,850 FOB.

From China to Portland is about $280. I would then be responsible for import duties/tariffs and delivery from Portland to where I live.

So if we assume $500 for tariffs that would be $3,630 plus shipping from Portland to here which would be at least $200 I would guess.

So that puts it right at the same cost Luna sells the regular version. But since the X Model is only $150 more than the standard version - I think that it shows that Luna is offering a fair price on it, and really hard to beat (especially because they are in stock). Transit time is estimated 32 days to port.

It would cost slightly less considering Luna's $3,850 tag doesn't include shipping and it would be the X Model, so good to know that (1) we can even order the X Model in the US, and (2) it can be had for a bit less than ordering through Luna.
But why? You get the x-controller and might save 1-200 $. But what do you do if there is a warranty issue? I tell you, you are out of luck and the initial savings are gone out the window. Best case you are able to contact seller and the seller admits to being responsible for replacement. So you ship out you damaged part out of pocket, and get your new part which you also need to pay shipment for. Worst case, seller ignores you or tell you to fcuk off. Then what?

For that amount of money I would say it makes sense to support you local dealer. Luna can only keep their Sur Ron deal if the sell enough to make money. If every other potential buyer will do their own side import, well in that case you might soon be without a US dealer. People buying this bike likely will use it for what, at least 5-6 years. It will be great for you guys to be able to source parts locally, from a shop that keep inventory. Rather then risk 6 weeks delivery from China.
First of all, I said that based on what it costs to order yourself, that Luna is hard to beat. If it was the same model and you might save a couple hundred bucks, I think the wait alone wouldn’t be worth it. On top of that, it would be hours of work to make all the arrangements (customs, freight, etc). I value my time, so I would not be saving anything - if they are the same model.

But when you take into account that it is the X Model, well, that changes the calculations considerably. There are monetary considerations and functionality considerations. If you value just the X Controller at $500, then you are looking at possibly reducing the cost by $800. And that is IF you can even find an X Controller to buy! There are other differences too, an improved seat, titanium brake calipers, upgraded chain, an improved BMS, etc. What is all that stuff worth? Easily $200 I would think, so now you are looking at a reduced cost of $1,000. And again, if you can even buy an upgraded seat (Luna ignored my inquiry about ordering them).

So even if you ignore any potential savings, you are getting something that is currently impossible to even get from Luna.

As far as supporting Luna, I have been treated very poorly from them every time I have ever made contact with them. They banned me from their Facebook page for trying to help folks. They have made so many misleading claims and downright lies (remember the website they put up but tried to make it look like it was a 3rd party) that it is really borderline fraud. They treat everyone with a "holier than thou" attitude. They told me over 6 months ago that they would have the warranty information posted “Very soon”. Well, 6-months later they still haven't posted a warranty. That’s pretty weird considering the bike comes with a factory warranty! Other distributors are honoring it.

And as far as them replacing defective items, my biggest concern was that I could receive a battery (the most expensive component) dead-on-arrival. I asked what happens then, and they said (emphasis added):
They will be covered by the warranty. No worries. As for battery questions. I’m not liable to answer that right now. Generally speaking if you can prove it was defective, we’ll be happy to help you
How on earth do you prove it was defective versus being damaged? When you order with Luna, you are at their mercy. They just might "ignore you or tell you to fcuk off".

Anyhow, I have tried to work with Luna time and time again. I have no desire to do business with them again unless I have absolutely no other choice. I am certainly not just going to blindly support them that is for sure.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by macribs » Nov 07 2018 5:46pm

Didn't know Alibaba got escrow now, probably cleaned house before becoming a listed company on the stock exchange a few years back. Great then, I can safely shop from them too now.

Didn't know you had bad experiences with Luna. I guess that makes your motivation different then those who consider side import to save a hundred bucks or two.

Well being in the mercy of Luna might actually be better for you then being on your own if you import the bike by yourself. Battery as the most costly component will likely never be replaced on warranty because of the strict li ion shipping rules. Even if the company selling those on alibaba accept your warranty claim they still would want the battery back to inspect it and discover what caused it to fail. And you can't get it shipped. Because you don't have the right papers for the battery. And that will probably be all she wrote in regards of getting a new one for free.

Fingers crossed that Luna is working on improving their customer skills and the way they treat their customers.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » Nov 07 2018 5:49pm

someone recently ordered a seat from their dealer and it was the new more padded seat, not the older version.. there will always be an unobtanium X(perimental) model, thats r&d and marketing.. but many of these upgrades will likely be faded into production and distribution on base models or available as options.. in the longer term it doesn't make sense to keep producing the old model seat, brakes, etc as the market and demand will be more driven by product development and upgrades ..
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Nov 07 2018 6:08pm

macribs wrote:
Nov 07 2018 5:46pm
Didn't know you had bad experiences with Luna. I guess that makes your motivation different then those who consider side import to save a hundred bucks or two.
I have no motivation. I am not about to order another one right now from either Alibaba or Luna or anyone else.

I was just curious what it would cost to order more direct, and it turns out it costs about the same as Luna - if you order the same model.
macribs wrote:
Nov 07 2018 5:46pm
Well being in the mercy of Luna might actually be better for you then being on your own if you import the bike by yourself.
Might being the keyword. Who knows - you might be better off with the Alibaba vendor. As it is, Luna has zero warranty for the Sur Ron.

But, that said, if you value the X Model more than the older model, and you take into account the price reduction in my last message, then even if you have to replace the battery on your cost (which is the most expensive component) - you end up with the X Model for about the same cost as it would be from Luna - if you can even order the upgraded parts.
macribs wrote:
Nov 07 2018 5:46pm
Battery as the most costly component will likely never be replaced on warranty because of the strict li ion shipping rules. Even if the company selling those on alibaba accept your warranty claim they still would want the battery back to inspect it and discover what caused it to fail. And you can't get it shipped. Because you don't have the right papers for the battery. And that will probably be all she wrote in regards of getting a new one for free.
I don't know - I mean they have the papers to ship batteries to you right? Why couldn't you use the same paper, or print a copy of it?
macribs wrote:
Nov 07 2018 5:46pm
Fingers crossed that Luna is working on improving their customer skills and the way they treat their customers.
It's a shame because I really, really tried to like them. I wanted to boast about them. Time and time again they have let me down. And I'm not the only one who feels that way.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Aebrennan » Nov 07 2018 8:56pm

efMX Trials Electric Freeride wrote:
Nov 07 2018 5:49pm
someone recently ordered a seat from their dealer and it was the new more padded seat, not the older version.. there will always be an unobtanium X(perimental) model, thats r&d and marketing.. but many of these upgrades will likely be faded into production and distribution on base models or available as options.. in the longer term it doesn't make sense to keep producing the old model seat, brakes, etc as the market and demand will be more driven by product development and upgrades ..
All bikes are the same only difference is the controller and cosmetics. Upgraded seat and brakes are on standard bikes, x version bikes and L1e bikes.
All batteries are the same.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by macribs » Nov 07 2018 9:42pm

3DTOPO wrote:
Nov 07 2018 6:08pm
macribs wrote:
Nov 07 2018 5:46pm
Didn't know you had bad experiences with Luna. I guess that makes your motivation different then those who consider side import to save a hundred bucks or two.
I have no motivation. I am not about to order another one right now from either Alibaba or Luna or anyone else.

I was just curious what it would cost to order more direct, and it turns out it costs about the same as Luna - if you order the same model.
Sorry I didn't mean that in a bad way. I meant that it made more sense that you where looking at options for your purchase in regards to your previous experiences with Luna.
3DTOPO wrote:
Nov 07 2018 6:08pm
macribs wrote:
Nov 07 2018 5:46pm
Battery as the most costly component will likely never be replaced on warranty because of the strict li ion shipping rules. Even if the company selling those on alibaba accept your warranty claim they still would want the battery back to inspect it and discover what caused it to fail. And you can't get it shipped. Because you don't have the right papers for the battery. And that will probably be all she wrote in regards of getting a new one for free.
I don't know - I mean they have the papers to ship batteries to you right? Why couldn't you use the same paper, or print a copy of it?
Well that was my understanding from reading this thread actually. Because that very thing was debated earlier in the thread and the outcome with no valid papers was my understanding of how things would unfold in warranty issues occurs. I could be wrong.
3DTOPO wrote:
Nov 07 2018 6:08pm
macribs wrote:
Nov 07 2018 5:46pm
Fingers crossed that Luna is working on improving their customer skills and the way they treat their customers.
It's a shame because I really, really tried to like them. I wanted to boast about them. Time and time again they have let me down. And I'm not the only one who feels that way.
Sorry to hear that. I knew Luna have had some issues and bad word of mouth here on the forum but I thought the overall consensus was that they did shape up, and that some of the bad mouthing actually was white noise from competitors in the e-bike market. If that is not correct lets hope they are able to make changes as they seem to be the only official US outlet for Sur Ron's.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by motomoto » Nov 07 2018 10:01pm

Too bad GreenMachine (Eric at Luna) got kicked off the ES site and can't defend himself.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Nov 07 2018 10:10pm

motomoto wrote:
Nov 07 2018 10:01pm
Too bad GreenMachine (Eric at Luna) got kicked off the ES site and can't defend himself.
If Luna wanted to participate in this forum, nothing is stopping them.

Luna has what is possibly the worst customer service attitude I have ever dealt with. It's really too bad because it doesn't take any more effort to be nice than it does to be rude. And kind of a key aspect of good customer service is to be cordial.

But don't get me started. I have records and could fill a page on my experience with them.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by pipeking » Nov 08 2018 3:48am

efMX Trials Electric Freeride wrote:
Nov 07 2018 5:49pm
someone recently ordered a seat from their dealer and it was the new more padded seat, not the older version.. there will always be an unobtanium X(perimental) model, thats r&d and marketing.. but many of these upgrades will likely be faded into production and distribution on base models or available as options.. in the longer term it doesn't make sense to keep producing the old model seat, brakes, etc as the market and demand will be more driven by product development and upgrades ..
On a lighter note, I was looking for a smaller seat, my ass hardly touches the thing :lol: was thinking about a bigger seat shaped battery...

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by racingame » Nov 08 2018 9:21am

Does anyone know how to disassemble the stock controller? I can't find out how to open it.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by aspencreek » Nov 08 2018 9:45am

Looks like Luna now has the X version bike listed for sale. https://lunacycle.com/sur-ron-x-bike/

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by fechter » Nov 08 2018 10:37am

racingame wrote:
Nov 08 2018 9:21am
Does anyone know how to disassemble the stock controller? I can't find out how to open it.
It's fully potted inside with epoxy stuff. Heat will soften the potting.
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by captnshrms » Nov 08 2018 11:58am

3DTOPO wrote:
Nov 07 2018 10:10pm
motomoto wrote:
Nov 07 2018 10:01pm
Too bad GreenMachine (Eric at Luna) got kicked off the ES site and can't defend himself.
If Luna wanted to participate in this forum, nothing is stopping them.

Luna has what is possibly the worst customer service attitude I have ever dealt with. It's really too bad because it doesn't take any more effort to be nice than it does to be rude. And kind of a key aspect of good customer service is to be cordial.

But don't get me started. I have records and could fill a page on my experience with them.


Luna doesn't seem interested in being involved in a conversation they are not in control of... They should not be the exclusive distributor of anything.

It takes them over a week to ship out a part, and that's after waiting months for it to be in stock. This is something EVERYONE on Amazon does within 24hrs, even on the weekends. The service is so poor it's insulting. Like they can't hire someone to handle the highly skilled labor of shipping. If it's backed up for a week, it's clearly needed, no other business would think that's acceptable.

The idea of supporting Luna so we get better support is laughable. The more you support Luna, the longer it takes for them to get anything done. Not to mention all they have done to confuse the public about the basic stats of the Sur-ron. It's top speed is 40mph, we all know this, it pulls it's maximum weight at 40mph, or on a Dyno with no weight, it's not a nebulous number, it's 40. I could go on...

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Nov 08 2018 12:29pm

Is the X version worth the $4450 over the $3890 over the regular bike?''

I do know that we got screwed with the 25% tariff and that is passed onto us.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » Nov 08 2018 3:13pm

Offroader wrote:
Nov 08 2018 12:29pm
Is the X version worth the $4450 over the $3890 over the regular bike?''

I do know that we got screwed with the 25% tariff and that is passed onto us.
considering the X controller is selling for around $500 and with the couple other upgrades the LB X price makes sense..
some ride & sk8 videos:
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http://www.youtube.com/natas666damien
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Nov 08 2018 3:24pm

captnshrms wrote:
Nov 08 2018 11:58am
Luna doesn't seem interested in being involved in a conversation they are not in control of... They should not be the exclusive distributor of anything.
Yeah, I found that out by trying to help folks in their walled Facebook garden. Apparently, if you don't have anything but rosy things to say they ban you from the group. Nice way to treat good customers, huh?
captnshrms wrote:
Nov 08 2018 11:58am
It takes them over a week to ship out a part, and that's after waiting months for it to be in stock. This is something EVERYONE on Amazon does within 24hrs, even on the weekends. The service is so poor it's insulting. Like they can't hire someone to handle the highly skilled labor of shipping. If it's backed up for a week, it's clearly needed, no other business would think that's acceptable.
That's not the way to run a service-oriented business.
captnshrms wrote:
Nov 08 2018 11:58am
The idea of supporting Luna so we get better support is laughable. The more you support Luna, the longer it takes for them to get anything done. Not to mention all they have done to confuse the public about the basic stats of the Sur-ron. It's top speed is 40mph, we all know this, it pulls it's maximum weight at 40mph, or on a Dyno with no weight, it's not a nebulous number, it's 40. I could go on...
They originally claimed it got an 80-mile range. When customers questioned them over the claim Luna insulted them with something along the lines of "You don't know how EV ranges work".

If I didn't love my bike so much, I would seriously consider legal action against them, for that and many other misleading and outright false claims. The crazy thing is, the product is good enough that they don't need to make misleading and false claims, and are only setting people up to be disappointed that would have otherwise been happy.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Nov 08 2018 3:31pm

Offroader wrote:
Nov 08 2018 12:29pm
Is the X version worth the $4450 over the $3890 over the regular bike?''
That's just being greedy. In China, the X Model only costs $130 more than the standard model and doesn't cost any more for them to ship them here.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Nov 08 2018 3:42pm

To Luna defense with the range claim. Range really depends on how hard you ride the bike and almost all ebikes claim ridiculously high ranges so to have a good comparison you have no choice but to probably used whatever way they rate range.

This is because it depends on how you ride the bike. With my 3KWH pack I get 50 miles because I ride the bike full throttle all the time. If I rode easy and at bike speeds and no field weakening, I could easily get 200 mile or more range.

I would think I would have no problem pushing the sur-ron 80 miles if I drove it at very light throttle.
Last edited by Offroader on Nov 08 2018 3:57pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Nov 08 2018 3:47pm

Offroader wrote:
Nov 08 2018 3:42pm
To Luna defense with the range claim. Range really depends on how hard you ride the bike and almost all ebikes claim ridiculously high ranges.
I know that quite well - I've put 1,000 miles on my Sur Ron. How many miles have you put on your Sur Ron?
Offroader wrote:
Nov 08 2018 3:42pm
I would think I would have no problem pushing the sur-ron 80 miles if I drove it at very light throttle.
80 miles?!? Impossible. Maybe at 3 miles per hour, on flat ground, you could get over 40 miles. But that is meaningless because who on earth is going to ride a motorbike 3 mph?

Even Luna realized it was a false claim and changed the stated range to 40 miles.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Nov 08 2018 4:22pm

I agree with you that real range is going to be quite low, I know I'll probably get 20 miles with the Sur-Ron. This usually goes with just about everything including cars.

I think they base range on something like 25 watt hours per mile like they rate all their low powered bikes. I use about 60 watt hours per mile on my 8KW bike.

I believe you could get away with 25 watt hours per mile if you baby the throttle.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by n2mb » Nov 08 2018 4:27pm

3DTOPO wrote:
Nov 08 2018 3:47pm

80 miles?!? Impossible. Maybe at 3 miles per hour, on flat ground, you could get over 40 miles. But that is meaningless because who on earth is going to ride a motorbike 3 mph?

Even Luna realized it was a false claim and changed the stated range to 40 miles.
There is something strange about the range I get on the Sur Ron. With the super moto wheels at 36 psi, I get about 30 mile range. With 1920 Whr, that works out to about 64 Wh / mi.

On my previous DD ebike that maxed out at 35 mph, I averaged 30 Wh / mi. Slower max, but somewhat similar average speeds.

I realize the Sur Ron weighs 110 lbs vs 60 lbs for my ebike, but it seems like a large difference. Is the controller really inefficient? The drive train? The extra rolling resistance from the fat tires vs bike tires?

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