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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Posted: Nov 11 2018 1:19pm
by fechter
madin88 wrote:
Nov 11 2018 8:09am

Then i would install the best LiPos i could find and fill it up with resin (for safety against vibrations etc.)
In terms of BMS it could be hard to find one capeable of what BAC8000 can do (500-600A?), but you also could use something that does just voltage monitoring and tells you if one group has reached LVC. Then you stop manually.
It's possible the multi-pin connector on the stock pack can send a signal to somewhere to shut things down or switch to EP mode.

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Posted: Nov 12 2018 12:52am
by liveforphysics

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Posted: Nov 12 2018 11:51am
by motomoto
Hey Luke, looks like you are practicing for Mars. I think the Sur-ron bikes would be a great vehicle on Mars. You know,
for bar hopping and such...

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Posted: Nov 12 2018 5:48pm
by Rix
liveforphysics wrote:
Nov 12 2018 12:52am
[youtube
Pretty neat Luke, how long will that one stay stock?

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Posted: Nov 13 2018 9:10am
by fechter
liveforphysics wrote:
Nov 12 2018 12:52am
[youtube
I bet the construction workers at that site would want one. I love the ending. Hopefully no broken ribs on that landing.

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Posted: Nov 13 2018 2:20pm
by Allex
Nice camera Luke, really good night shooting

Found this:

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Posted: Nov 14 2018 8:52am
by liveforphysics
Congratulations my friend on getting real phase current! It awakes a beast in them with big phase current.

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Posted: Nov 14 2018 9:49am
by ziltoid81
n2mb wrote:
Nov 08 2018 4:27pm

There is something strange about the range I get on the Sur Ron. With the super moto wheels at 36 psi, I get about 30 mile range. With 1920 Whr, that works out to about 64 Wh / mi.
Got my raptor back running yesterday and measured today at my commute to work.
55-60kg bike, 85kg rider, 17 inch street tire on a mxus 3000.
I set the midi e to 60/120A and averaged at 33.6wh per mile without any pedaling......i wonder how the sur ron will do at the same conditions, cause i want it especially for legal commuting.

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Posted: Nov 14 2018 9:56am
by n2mb
ziltoid81 wrote:
Nov 14 2018 9:49am
n2mb wrote:
Nov 08 2018 4:27pm

There is something strange about the range I get on the Sur Ron. With the super moto wheels at 36 psi, I get about 30 mile range. With 1920 Whr, that works out to about 64 Wh / mi.
Got my raptor back running yesterday and measured today at my commute to work.
55-60kg bike, 85kg rider, 17 inch street tire on a mxus 3000.
I set the midi e to 60/120A and averaged at 33.6wh per mile without any pedaling......i wonder how the sur ron will do at the same conditions, cause i want it especially for legal commuting.
It is somehow much less efficient. Possibly because it goes much faster? Or because the belt / chain drive is less efficient than direct drive. Or both?

What was your average speed? I could compare to some of my rides. I know my average speed is higher than on my DD ebike, because I keep the throttle pegged when on 45 mph roads and average 45 mph...

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Posted: Nov 14 2018 10:05am
by ziltoid81
Flat road mostly......
2018-11-14-16-02-08.jpg

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Posted: Nov 14 2018 10:21am
by n2mb
ziltoid81 wrote:
Nov 14 2018 10:05am
Flat road mostly......
2018-11-14-16-02-08.jpg
That might explain it. Your average is under 20 mph. My ride average is 28 mph, max is 48 mph. Lots of wind resistance at high speed. Also, more rolling resistance on the Sur Ron supermoto tires than bike tires. Although, on the same route, I rode my DD ebike and averaged 25 mph, max 40.5 mph and got just over 30 Wh / mi.

The Sur Ron is much heavier. My DD ebike was 60 lbs, the Sur Ron is 110 lbs. Also, the DD ebike had a sine wave controller, likely more efficient too. I'll see how adding the X Controller goes.

Anyway, even though the efficiency sucks, its still way more fun than the DD ebike I built and much less sketchy. It feels very solid at high speeds. Especially with the Super Moto wheels and tires. It gets about 30 miles range, which is enough for me.

I'm still thinking of rebuilding my DD e-bike as a lightweight commuter with a lightweight 2kw peak 8T Mac gear motor and a 660 whr battery. It should be about 50 lbs when done, which might be a little easier to get around town and into the office with. It should go 20 miles on a charge, but only top out at 30 mph. My commute is only 2 miles, so the Sur Ron is overkill.... But fun!

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Posted: Nov 14 2018 11:03am
by ziltoid81
I use a moto tire for the mxus and a bike tire for the front..... should be the same with you super moto setup.
But yeah im a little slower....... i rode intentionally without regen for better comparison, and when i do, i ride slower cause i can hear my brakes arguing what im doin.

It sucks that the homologated version still comes with the square wave controller, i want a sur ron pretty bad, but maybe its smarter to wait for a potential update for the legal version.
I need regen via button/lever.

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Posted: Nov 14 2018 3:24pm
by bigbore
Allex wrote:
Nov 08 2018 6:39pm
I bet lvc on the cells are set to 3V and this will give us about 2.6Ah per cell. Thats 28.6Ah Usable.
57.6V*28.6=1647Wh and not some imaginary 2000Wh. So lets be real here.
Add the bulky offroad motor tyres, belt and chain and you have a lot of drag compared to a hub motor.

I will soon re-cell my pack with 30Q cells and then its ready to be upgraded with ASI controller. X controller is great but if you know how to build bikes, why waste xtra 500bucks on it, better buy another controller.
Yeah :bigthumb:
This is the Allex I know :D
Now my interest in this new toy is raising a lot ....

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Posted: Nov 14 2018 4:16pm
by ziltoid81
The problem is that i need it to be street legal, otherwise alex is right, save the money for the x controller.

I already have an illegal bike, no need for another. :lol:

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Posted: Nov 14 2018 10:55pm
by fechter
Does anybody have real data measured on a Sur-Ron?

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Posted: Nov 15 2018 12:53am
by motomoto
Just this on the original test bike from Sur-ron #27. The production version was a 20% jump in power and the x-controller adds
to that.
sur-ron dyno.png
sur-ron dyno.png (35.58 KiB) Viewed 1286 times

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Posted: Nov 15 2018 4:47am
by n2mb
motomoto wrote:
Nov 15 2018 12:53am
Just this on the original test bike from Sur-ron #27. The production version was a 20% jump in power and the x-controller adds
to that.sur-ron dyno.png
I don't think the production bike could be higher than the HP reported there. Someone measured it as 65 amps peak from the battery, which optimistically translates to 3900 watts. At 90% efficient (a guess), that would be 4.7 wheel horsepower.

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Posted: Nov 15 2018 4:46pm
by 3DTOPO
New startup (Renault-Nissan-Mitsubishi alliance) claims ~300 Wh/kg:

https://electrek.co/2018/11/13/renault- ... y-startup/

If so, a 6KW/h pack would weigh in around 20KG (plus some additional weight for the enclosure, wiring, etc.).

Has anyone weighed the stock pack? I am guessing it weighs 18 to 20 kg?

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Posted: Nov 15 2018 4:59pm
by ziltoid81
The cells weigh in at 8kg naked.
I guess around 10 for the pack.

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Posted: Nov 15 2018 5:04pm
by 3DTOPO
ziltoid81 wrote:
Nov 15 2018 4:59pm
The cells weigh in at 8kg naked.
I guess around 10 for the pack.
Wow, really? Sure feels heavier than that to me. I would weight it but weighs too much for my postal scale.

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Posted: Nov 15 2018 5:16pm
by 3DTOPO
ziltoid81 wrote:
Nov 15 2018 4:59pm
The cells weigh in at 8kg naked.
I guess around 10 for the pack.
Hmm, well even at 8KG in cells, these new cells would be 2.4KW/h. But since they are rectangular, I bet one could fit in 20% more cells.

Which would make it 2.88kw/h, which is about 1kw/h more than the stock pack. I would buy one!

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Posted: Nov 15 2018 5:48pm
by ziltoid81
I like tec thats actually available......

The pana pf gives you 9wh per cell at 2-3A till 3V. (i dont know when the stock bms trips)
Times 176=1584wh.(it seems the efficiency isnt that bad when you consider you have only 1,5kw/h usable, i forgot to calculate that properly)
With the samsung 35e you get appr. 11wh per cell, thats around 2000 usable wh, but not if you want to go crazy all the time......these affordable high cap cells usually dont like amps.
Then you go with 30q or something like that.

Maybe without spacers you can fit more cells, or you build a litte extender and place it under the seat.

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Posted: Nov 15 2018 5:59pm
by 3DTOPO
ziltoid81 wrote:
Nov 15 2018 5:48pm
I like tec thats actually available......

The pana pf gives you 9wh per cell at 2-3A till 3V. (i dont know when the stock bms trips)
Times 176=1584wh.(it seems the efficiency isnt that bad when you consider you have only 1,5kw/h usable, i forgot to calculate that properly)
With the samsung 35e you get appr. 11wh per cell, thats around 2000 usable wh, but not if you want to go crazy all the time......these affordable high cap cells usually dont like amps.
Then you go with 30q or something like that.

Maybe without spacers you can fit more cells, or you build a litte extender and place it under the seat.
Thanks for that. I would agree that tech that is available is preferential. But going from 1.5KW/ to 2.0KW/h wouldn't really be worth the expense to me. Now, going from 1.5KW/h to nearly 3.0KW/h would be worth it.

I sent them an email asking if they had an estimate for availability. If I get a response I will share it.

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Posted: Nov 16 2018 3:35am
by derb
I installed a battery meter (https://de.aliexpress.com/item/100A-New ... 74edbe2f8a) and drove the battery empty until it stopped (at 6% rest).
The battery shuts off at 48V. I got 29.5Ah what exactly 1700Wh corresponds.
My average consumption after 1500km hard drive over trails is 43Wh / km or 27Wh / mile.

Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Posted: Nov 16 2018 3:36am
by Allex
How many Amps did you see during peaks?
Here is a battery case extender with a new hatch. The pack is like 22s10p