Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.
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Allex   1 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by Allex » Nov 20 2018 3:20am

Allex wrote:
Feb 13 2018 6:30pm
Looks like Sur-Ron changed their 10A chargers.
These are made to be mounted inside the bike, but works just as good as an external one.
The 300A kelly on the left in comparison, and It is tempting to swap out original controller to it!
IMG_4329.jpg

Now, who want to see the battery?
I got to tell you, these guys mean business. This is the best built battery on the market to date for this kind of money!
Everything is water proof, really well thought-out and high quality components everywhere.
Supra x connectors on the drain side
cnlinko industrial connectors on the charge side, waterproof and very high quality.
No cheap XLR/Anderson connectors here. They really put their heart into this battery!
IMG_4326.jpg


The only thing I would improve is having thicker nickel strips, but this is only needed if you want to suck more than 85A from the original cells. And you cannot do this because the stock BMS itself is 85A rated.
So you probably end up swapping BMS as well once you start mod this bike with diff. controller.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... r#p1358016
The updated battery have different holders and better cell connection - a lot more nickel.
IMG_5360.jpg
IMG_5361.jpg
There is actually space for 4 more cells so you can build a 180 cells battery using original holders and have a 20s9p pack
IMG_5362.jpg
If you like glue, here is what you can fit within the actual cell holder, 109 on each level gives you 218 cells, thats a 20s11p pack if you add 2 more cells on top. Using Sanyo GA you get 72V38Ah
IMG_5363.jpg
If you are brave and use minimal protection you can fit another row, thats additional 30 cells and gives you 248 cells a potential 21s12p if you can fit 4 more cells.
IMG_5364.jpg

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madin88   100 MW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by madin88 » Nov 20 2018 7:50am

Allex thank you for the pics and figuring out whats possible. I don't own a SurRon yet, but one day i think i will have one or do some work at one so it's cool to see whats possible in terms of Wh when placing the cells side by side in honeycomb shape.

Now, if you can fit 218cells maximum, it would mean you could upgrade any stock bike at least to 16s13p or a total of 208cells with the honeycomb layout (controller and BMS left stock) with plenty room left for protection and insulation.
For any higher voltage setups it would anyway need a different BMS and controller.

Did you measure the internal dimensions of the box?
That might be helpful to know as well if someone takes 21700 or other different sizes into concideration.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by n2mb » Nov 20 2018 8:48am

Allex wrote:
Nov 20 2018 3:20am
Allex wrote:
Feb 13 2018 6:30pm
Looks like Sur-Ron changed their 10A chargers.
These are made to be mounted inside the bike, but works just as good as an external one.
The 300A kelly on the left in comparison, and It is tempting to swap out original controller to it!
IMG_4329.jpg

Now, who want to see the battery?
I got to tell you, these guys mean business. This is the best built battery on the market to date for this kind of money!
Everything is water proof, really well thought-out and high quality components everywhere.
Supra x connectors on the drain side
cnlinko industrial connectors on the charge side, waterproof and very high quality.
No cheap XLR/Anderson connectors here. They really put their heart into this battery!
IMG_4326.jpg


The only thing I would improve is having thicker nickel strips, but this is only needed if you want to suck more than 85A from the original cells. And you cannot do this because the stock BMS itself is 85A rated.
So you probably end up swapping BMS as well once you start mod this bike with diff. controller.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... r#p1358016
The updated battery have different holders and better cell connection - a lot more nickel.
IMG_5360.jpg
IMG_5361.jpg

There is actually space for 4 more cells so you can build a 180 cells battery using original holders and have a 20s9p pack
IMG_5362.jpg

If you like glue, here is what you can fit within the actual cell holder, 109 on each level gives you 218 cells, thats a 20s11p pack if you add 2 more cells on top. Using Sanyo GA you get 72V38Ah
IMG_5363.jpg

If you are brave and use minimal protection you can fit another row, thats additional 30 cells and gives you 248 cells a potential 21s12p if you can fit 4 more cells.

IMG_5364.jpg
Who made the updated battery? Sur Ron or you? It's odd it still has PF cells.

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ziltoid81   100 W

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by ziltoid81 » Nov 20 2018 9:26am

Thanks alex..... great details and infos.

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motomoto   1 kW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by motomoto » Nov 21 2018 12:51am

Yeah, thanks Allex.

So I came up with a crazy idea. If I used a different controller that could handle 20S, would it hurt the stock pack
if I put a 4S 16 amp Multistar in the line to the controller? Would it then be the same as a 20S pack? Maybe it would matter
if it was on the positive line or on the negative line? I know this is a no brainer (me), so would someone with a brain
please straighten me out on this?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Tommm » Nov 21 2018 1:15am

motomoto wrote:
Nov 21 2018 12:51am
Yeah, thanks Allex.

So I came up with a crazy idea. If I used a different controller that could handle 20S, would it hurt the stock pack
if I put a 4S 16 amp Multistar in the line to the controller? Would it then be the same as a 20S pack? Maybe it would matter
if it was on the positive line or on the negative line? I know this is a no brainer (me), so would someone with a brain
please straighten me out on this?
It would promptly set itself on fire as it would be discharging at a different rate.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by n2mb » Nov 21 2018 8:10am

Tommm wrote:
Nov 21 2018 1:15am

It would promptly set itself on fire as it would be discharging at a different rate.
Not sure what you mean. It would discharge at the same amp rate since the lipo would be in series with the stock pack. It should work fine. You should use two 4s 16Ah lipos in parallel to try and match the capacity of the stock pack.

$150 shipped on sale right now for two batteries:
https://hobbyking.com/en_us/multistar-h ... -xt90.html

plus the parallel adapter:
https://hobbyking.com/en_us/xt90-parall ... r-1pc.html

However, you would have to monitor the voltage of the Lipo and remove them from the bike before they reach their minimum voltage. You'd also need to balance charge them off the bike.

It's not a terrible idea, since you'd also get roughly another 9 miles of range if you keep the same speeds, or use the extra battery for a roughly 20-25% speed increase perhaps.

You could make an inline plug adapter that would add the lipos in series with the stock pack, but would be easily removable when not needed.

I think I remember someone tested the controller at 18s and 20s. I think it worked. Is that true?

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fechter   100 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by fechter » Nov 21 2018 9:11am

I finally got some instrumentation installed on mine:
Img_0964.jpg
Img_0964.jpg (120.11 KiB) Viewed 822 times
Cycle Analyst is tied in now, but only measures the current going to the controller and not the dc-dc converter. I found the switched pack voltage line coming from the key and picked up one of the hall sensor signals for speed. I'm still sort of getting things dialed in, but the numbers are interesting. I wasn't trusting the current numbers at first so I borrowed a freshly calibrated Fluke Y8100 to verify the shunt calibration. It was off by about 3%, so I corrected it.

With the rear wheel off the ground, full speed, I measured 12.3A. This seems pretty high, but maybe normal for this large of a motor. I'd like to try it with the belt removed sometime to compare.

Hard take off (current limiting) I measured 77A. Maybe my controller is 'hotter' than normal? It is the older trapezoidal style. The current limit seems to be very precise and it stays there until the speed picks up enough for the current to drop.

I'll do more measurements once I get all the wiring tucked in.

So it seems the battery will really be the limiting factor in how hard it can get pushed. I'm looking at the possibility of adding more battery in parallel to the stock pack. With some additional cells, I can take some of the load off the stock pack which will reduce the amount of sag and allow more of the capacity to be used. If I use a single port BMS and parallel the two packs, I can charge both packs at the same time from the stock charge port.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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ziltoid81   100 W

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by ziltoid81 » Nov 21 2018 9:28am

motomoto wrote:
Nov 21 2018 12:51am


So I came up with a crazy idea. If I used a different controller that could handle 20S, would it hurt the stock pack
if I put a 4S 16 amp Multistar in the line to the controller? Would it then be the same as a 20S pack? Maybe it would matter
if it was on the positive line or on the negative line? I know this is a no brainer (me), so would someone with a brain
please straighten me out on this?
It will not affect the stock pack, cause it will behave as a external pack.
In series its a seperate pack, therefore you need a bms, the series dont interact with each other.
As mentioned use 4s 32Ah, but still monitor that pack.
It will still behave major different than the stock pack, due to the higher discharge rate for the lipo.
My guess is that the stock pack will sag way more than the lipos pack so with 32Ah it should be pretty safe.
The stock pack will drain faster..... at least thats my guessing.

I would rather use a parallel extender but with high current 18650cells from sony, they wont drift so you have no trouble.
And wired in parallel to the stock pack it will actually reduce the stress on the stock battery.

But of course that wont give you more volts.....only a few due to the better discharge rate of the whole pack.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by n2mb » Nov 21 2018 9:50am

fechter wrote:
Nov 21 2018 9:11am

Hard take off (current limiting) I measured 77A. Maybe my controller is 'hotter' than normal? It is the older trapezoidal style. The current limit seems to be very precise and it stays there until the speed picks up enough for the current to drop.
Yow! That could be why we're not feeling a huge increase with the X controller. Others have tested the X controller and measured 83A peak. I'll measure mine soon as my current meter comes in...

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madin88   100 MW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by madin88 » Nov 21 2018 10:26am

fechter wrote:
Nov 21 2018 9:11am
With the rear wheel off the ground, full speed, I measured 12.3A. This seems pretty high, but maybe normal for this large of a motor. I'd like to try it with the belt removed sometime to compare.
Thats around 700W of no-load consumption which would be indeed pretty high.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by fechter » Nov 21 2018 12:11pm

madin88 wrote:
Nov 21 2018 10:26am
Thats around 700W of no-load consumption which would be indeed pretty high.
I wonder how that compares to something similar. What does a Zero draw with the wheel up?

With that much waste heat, something should be getting pretty warm, but I never feel the motor or controller getting more than barely warm.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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ziltoid81   100 W

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by ziltoid81 » Nov 21 2018 12:32pm

madin88 wrote:
Nov 21 2018 10:26am
fechter wrote:
Nov 21 2018 9:11am
With the rear wheel off the ground, full speed, I measured 12.3A. This seems pretty high, but maybe normal for this large of a motor. I'd like to try it with the belt removed sometime to compare.
Thats around 700W of no-load consumption which would be indeed pretty high.
My heavy hub bike goes over 30km/h with 700W and its not even the most efficient motor tuning.....but that would explain the poor efficiency some are talking about.
Maybe 2 chains would be better.

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madin88   100 MW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by madin88 » Nov 21 2018 12:41pm

ziltoid81 wrote:
Nov 21 2018 12:32pm
Maybe 2 chains would be better.
We don't know until someone measures the consumption of the motor alone.
Belt drives can have quite high loss without load (around 3-4% maximum), but under load it usually outperforms the chaindrive.
I don't know exactly why this is the case, but it might have something to do with the higher tension of the belt (which is contraproductive at no-load).

What was the no-load speed of the 60V surron (in kmh)?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by n2mb » Nov 21 2018 1:04pm

madin88 wrote:
Nov 21 2018 12:41pm
ziltoid81 wrote:
Nov 21 2018 12:32pm
Maybe 2 chains would be better.
We don't know until someone measures the consumption of the motor alone.
Belt drives can have quite high loss without load (around 3-4% maximum), but under load it usually outperforms the chaindrive.
I don't know exactly why this is the case, but it might have something to do with the higher tension of the belt (which is contraproductive at no-load).

What was the no-load speed of the 60V surron (in kmh)?
52 mph.

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fechter   100 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by fechter » Nov 21 2018 1:39pm

madin88 wrote:
Nov 21 2018 12:41pm

What was the no-load speed of the 60V surron (in kmh)?
d
I was seeing around 72kph (45mph). The battery was about 50%, right around 60v.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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ziltoid81   100 W

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by ziltoid81 » Nov 21 2018 8:12pm

Hyena got 60km range without going too slow and 75 in eco mode only, with 1600wh thats 26wh/km or 42wh/mile in semi sport mode or 21wh/km - 34wh/mile in eco.
Still not impressive, but not so bad with the stock battery and no pedals and without regen/sine wave.

Does anyone have numbers for the sine wave controller?
Im not interested in more power i wonder what range you get with the x if you dont go wot all the time.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Nov 21 2018 11:38pm

If someone measured 12 amps with the wheel off the ground that makes me think this is the reason for the crappy range people are reporting. I think we need to look more into this.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Rix » Nov 22 2018 12:37pm

Offroader wrote:
Nov 21 2018 11:38pm
If someone measured 12 amps with the wheel off the ground that makes me think this is the reason for the crappy range people are reporting. I think we need to look more into this.
Not sure how much current the bikes draws unloaded with the wheel off the ground, but I was getting 20 miles of WOT offroad trail riding range on my green machine with the 52T and 55T sprockets on the rear. On my Alta, I get about 40 miles of easy trail riding range, and about 30 miles of trail riding range running it quick. Of course I am comparing a 2kwh battery to a 5.8kwh battery. Definitely not apples to apples comparison.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by madin88 » Nov 22 2018 2:20pm

Offroader wrote:
Nov 21 2018 11:38pm
If someone measured 12 amps with the wheel off the ground that makes me think this is the reason for the crappy range people are reporting. I think we need to look more into this.
The wheel alone, when it's spinning off the ground at 70-80kmh maybe takes 100-200W as a guess, or what do you think? Thats what i have seen on hubdrives.

losses from the chain and belt are maybe 5% in total
This would mean the motor still could have around 500W of no-load consumption at mentioned speed.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by ziltoid81 » Nov 22 2018 5:02pm

That would be a lot.....but i only know these no load numbers from hub motors, maybe its normal for these fast spinning middrives.

Another question.

Does the internal bms communicate with the controller like some can bus system, or is that just a "dumb" bms that works alone and the controller only get positive and negative wires?
Do i need an original bms when i want to build a second battery?

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fechter   100 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by fechter » Nov 22 2018 8:00pm

ziltoid81 wrote:
Nov 22 2018 5:02pm
Does the internal bms communicate with the controller like some can bus system, or is that just a "dumb" bms that works alone and the controller only get positive and negative wires?
Do i need an original bms when i want to build a second battery?
Good question. The battery has a pair of main power wires and another plug with a bunch of smaller wires. But I know it will run if the smaller plug is unplugged, so seems like any battery will work if it's in the right voltage range.

When the pack gets low, it kicks the controller into EP mode, but not sure if that signal comes from the BMS or just the pack voltage.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Nov 23 2018 4:20pm

n2mb wrote:
Nov 21 2018 8:10am

I think I remember someone tested the controller at 18s and 20s. I think it worked. Is that true?
I believe someone did say they used 18s. It may be best to make a pack using 18s13p. This would be so you could keep the bike stock without upgrading the controller. You could also use the Sanyo 3500 NCR 18650GA cells which would give you around 2,700 watt hour battery.

This would give you plenty of range and a higher top speed, and still deliver plenty of amps. You would also be able to keep your stock controller without having the bike look like a messy Frankenstein bike as I believe they call them on the forum.

I am not sure the limits of the amps on the stock controller, but I believe it is limited and that is why it makes sense to use the high capacity NCR 18650 GA cells, to maximize your range without needing the cells to put out amps that you can't use. The Sanyo 3500 cells are rated to 10 amps a cell so you could output 130 amps in a 18s13p configuration. I doubt the stock controller uses anything close to 130 amps.

These cells also lose very little capacity a year, I average about 1% loss a year from my capacity tests each year.

I use the Sanyo NCR18650GA 3500 MAH cells in a 20s14p configuration on my bike and it works very good. There is actually too much range on my bike as I hardly ever get close to using it all. For me to test out a cycle i usually have to do it over 2 days of bike riding. I only push my bike to 8KW, but if I maxed out the amps that these cells could handle I could get over 10KW.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by n2mb » Nov 23 2018 9:03pm

stonezone wrote:
Jul 24 2018 1:48am
Strava says I just did 50mph on a slight downhill with the 58t sprocket, 19x3.5 trials rear and 18s of multistars. Good fun but makes the stock pack less exciting.
Here we go... stonezone tested 18s, but it doesn't seem like anyone tested 20s. It possibly won't work since someone mentioned they believe the input caps are rated for 80V. Although, that doesn't seem like a common capacitor rating. I thought the next rating above 63V would be 100V.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by fechter » Nov 23 2018 10:22pm

n2mb wrote:
Nov 23 2018 9:03pm
Here we go... stonezone tested 18s, but it doesn't seem like anyone tested 20s. It possibly won't work since someone mentioned they believe the input caps are rated for 80V. Although, that doesn't seem like a common capacitor rating. I thought the next rating above 63V would be 100V.
I can confirm that the caps are rated for 80v on both the trapezoidal and X controllers. The little dc-dc converter that supplies the logic power is also rated for 80v. I think 20s might be asking for smoke. 19s could work.

I'd also have to assume the X controller would have an upper voltage cutoff in software because it can do regen. Not sure about the trap version.
Sur-ron Capacitors.jpg
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"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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