Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

General Discussion about large electric scooters and motorcycles and other things with no pedals.
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madin88   1 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by madin88 » Mar 14 2019 9:31am

Rodney64 wrote:
Mar 14 2019 8:50am
What length belt did you use.
Fortunately we could use a standard size for the 25/93T gearing. It is 1440mm long.

From my experience the best belt is the Optibelt Delta Chain carbon, followed by Gates Poly Chain GT carbon and the standard Gates Poly Chain GT (without carbon).
The reason i would prefer Optibelt over Gates is the smooth topside, whereas the belts from Gates are ribbed.

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Offroader   100 MW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Mar 14 2019 12:08pm

Allex wrote:
Mar 14 2019 9:24am
Sure Rodney,
I will offer them and the preliminary price is 375USD including shipping.
Length is 1440mm
I have created a spreadsheet, so please - those who are interested, fill it in! Or just PM me.

Once I get 10 orders and you payed for them I can start the production, lead time is about 1 month
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing
It says it includes the Belt, is this the Optibelt Delta chain carbon belt that madin88 recommended? If it isn't, how much to upgrade to this particular belt?

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Allex   10 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Allex » Mar 14 2019 1:22pm

The price is with Optibelt yes! This is actually Optibelts latest line
Brochure:
http://www.ageraab.se/download/269/

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Mar 15 2019 7:21am

Allex wrote:
Mar 14 2019 1:22pm
The price is with Optibelt yes! This is actually Optibelts latest line
Brochure:
http://www.ageraab.se/download/269/
What is your take on the belt drive getting dirty, muddy, rocks in it? Will this really kill the life of the belt or sprocket or is it more like it will last maybe 5 years instead of 10 years, meaning its negligible cost as the belt will last long even in harsh riding conditions.

I don't expect to really get a lot of dirt kicked up in there because I mostly ride in the summer and make sure the ground is dry. I really don't like getting mud on myself so I avoid wet and muddy conditions.

Even if I had to replace the belt every year it would still probably be worth it over the chain.

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Allex   10 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Allex » Mar 15 2019 9:26am

I really don't care if it last one summer or four. I am after silence and buying a new belt is not a big deal for me.
Having not to tension it every 10 chargers, and lubing it every charge and also have a cleaner bike and MUCH more silent bike is worth so much more to me.

My riding style is exactly like yours as I mostly ride during dry ground and do so 80% off road. I really much doubt that it will disappoint my expectations.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Mar 15 2019 11:23am

I agree Allex. I don't think it will be an issue also. Eventually there will probably be some type of mud guard I'm sure.

I also bet we could probably drive it in dirty conditions and it would still last many years.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by SlowCo » Mar 15 2019 1:20pm

Maybe a short strip of brush (for doors against draft or even an old toothbrush) where normally a tensioner would be positioned just before the rear sprocket/pulley could get rid of the most damaging debris? I would place it a little crooked/slanted to direct the debris to the side.
tochtborstelstrip.jpg
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by okent » Mar 15 2019 8:11pm

Silly question, does anyone know where I could purchase a primary belt drive pulley? (HTD-8M-23) I put on the chain drive kit and popped off the flanges.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Rix » Mar 16 2019 10:10am

SlowCo wrote:
Mar 15 2019 1:20pm
Maybe a short strip of brush (for doors against draft or even an old toothbrush) where normally a tensioner would be positioned just before the rear sprocket/pulley could get rid of the most damaging debris? I would place it a little crooked/slanted to direct the debris to the side.

tochtborstelstrip.jpg
I guess the only way to know is to give it a try.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Mar 16 2019 6:42pm

I just upgraded to Shimano Saint breaks. It took some work but I was able to route the back brake cable through the frame without having to disconnect the cable and re-bleed it. They are definitely a nice upgrade!

I ordered these new 6-hole 203 rotors to go with them, but the diameter of the hole spacing is too small:

https://amzn.to/2OaUIAC

I didn't know there were different diameter six-hole mounts. Does anyone know what term/spec or keyword would be used for the Sur Ron rotor mount size?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Lelandjt » Mar 17 2019 1:43am

3DTOPO wrote:
Mar 16 2019 6:42pm
I just upgraded to Shimano Saint breaks. It took some work but I was able to route the back brake cable through the frame without having to disconnect the cable and re-bleed it. They are definitely a nice upgrade!

I ordered these new 6-hole 203 rotors to go with them, but the diameter of the hole spacing is too small:

https://amzn.to/2OaUIAC

I didn't know there were different diameter six-hole mounts. Does anyone know what term/spec or keyword would be used for the Sur Ron rotor mount size?
The rear rotor is unique to Sur-ron and can only be bought from you country's distributor. You won't find any bicycle or motorcycle rotor that fits the rear hub. The front rotor is a normal bicycle part.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Mar 17 2019 2:01am

Lelandjt wrote:
Mar 17 2019 1:43am
3DTOPO wrote:
Mar 16 2019 6:42pm
I just upgraded to Shimano Saint breaks. It took some work but I was able to route the back brake cable through the frame without having to disconnect the cable and re-bleed it. They are definitely a nice upgrade!

I ordered these new 6-hole 203 rotors to go with them, but the diameter of the hole spacing is too small:

https://amzn.to/2OaUIAC

I didn't know there were different diameter six-hole mounts. Does anyone know what term/spec or keyword would be used for the Sur Ron rotor mount size?
The rear rotor is unique to Sur-ron and can only be bought from you country's distributor. You won't find any bicycle or motorcycle rotor that fits the rear hub. The front rotor is a normal bicycle part.
Thanks for the explanation!

I only tried installing it on the rear wheel. Kind of a bummer I can't upgrade them both, but nice to know I can at least upgrade the front one, thanks!!

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Allex   10 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Allex » Mar 17 2019 11:24am

You can install it just make new holes and make the inner diameter bigger.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by skyungjae » Mar 18 2019 8:38am

It looks like ERT is taking pre-orders on their plug and play ASI:

https://electricrt.com/sur-ron-upgrades/
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Allex   10 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Allex » Mar 18 2019 9:22am

I wonder why he chose having all the guts in front of the bike rather than having them faced towards battery side.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by skyungjae » Mar 18 2019 9:32am

Allex wrote:
Mar 18 2019 9:22am
I wonder why he chose having all the guts in front of the bike rather than having them faced towards battery side.
Maybe it's easier to install?
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Offroader   100 MW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Mar 18 2019 10:01am

But he should have at least put some kind of cover over the wires. I kind of like the stock controller looks better.

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fechter   100 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by fechter » Mar 18 2019 10:53am

skyungjae wrote:
Mar 18 2019 8:38am
It looks like ERT is taking pre-orders on their plug and play ASI:

https://electricrt.com/sur-ron-upgrades/
Interesting, but the stock battery can't support that power level.
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Tommm » Mar 18 2019 2:28pm

skyungjae wrote:
Mar 18 2019 8:38am
It looks like ERT is taking pre-orders on their plug and play ASI:

https://electricrt.com/sur-ron-upgrades/
Thankfully they went with the sane 4000 instead of the motor burner and impossible to feed 8000.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Mar 18 2019 6:16pm

Tommm wrote:
Mar 18 2019 2:28pm
skyungjae wrote:
Mar 18 2019 8:38am
It looks like ERT is taking pre-orders on their plug and play ASI:

https://electricrt.com/sur-ron-upgrades/
Thankfully they went with the sane 4000 instead of the motor burner and impossible to feed 8000.
Im confused. motomoto said he was working with ASI to get a custom tuned 8000 controller for the bike. He said that just a page or two before this if you want to see his post or here is the direct link.
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=89902&start=3175#p1451295

Now is this 4000 the controller that motomoto was working with ASI to tune or is this another controller version.

The other question is the 4000 seems to be way more power than you would need as its capable to hit 32KW. Why would motomoto want to get an 8000 controller made for the bike? Seems overkill unless you can get more phase amps or something out of the 8000.

Can someone clarify what is going on here with the 4000 and 8000 controllers? Would you ever really need or want an 8000 controller. I do know that phase amp used to make a differrence as the max-e had limited this, and maybe the 8000 allows more phase amps?

The other question is what exactly is motomoto getting custom tuned with the 8000, and does it matter? Is this 4000 custom tuned also?

This bike definitely needs a controller upgrade so we need to figure out what controller is best to get.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Tommm » Mar 18 2019 6:55pm

Offroader wrote:
Mar 18 2019 6:16pm
Now is this 4000 the controller that motomoto was working with ASI to tune or is this another controller version.
It seems like they realized themselves, the 8000 is just stupidity. There is simply not enough space in the frame to power it reliably.
You will need ultra short lived lipo to power it or torture some 25r making it also ultra short lived to get meaningfully more power than the 4000 could put out. All that if, the motor doesn't burn up in the process (which it can and will at those power levels).

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Ohbse » Mar 18 2019 7:41pm

Tommm wrote:
Mar 18 2019 6:55pm
Offroader wrote:
Mar 18 2019 6:16pm
Now is this 4000 the controller that motomoto was working with ASI to tune or is this another controller version.
It seems like they realized themselves, the 8000 is just stupidity. There is simply not enough space in the frame to power it reliably.
You will need ultra short lived lipo to power it or torture some 25r making it also ultra short lived to get meaningfully more power than the 4000 could put out. All that if, the motor doesn't burn up in the process (which it can and will at those power levels).
ERT isn't affiliated with motomoto. Agreed on all counts that the 4000 would be much more appropriate for the Surron, 8000 turned up would be fun, but likely short lived. 4000 would be very nearly as fun and actually sustainable.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by liveforphysics » Mar 18 2019 8:59pm

The 8000 will still give you a big torque advantage at low motor speeds even if they have the same ultimate battery limited peak HP.

Since torque/thrust is what the user feels, the 8000 feels that much more nuts than the 4000 up until you're reaching the battery power limits. That said, a 4000 is still a monster upgrade.
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Mar 18 2019 9:29pm

Are you referring to phase amps because I agree with you. What I wonder about is phase amps so important with a mid-drive bike?
WIth a hub motor you need all the phase amps you can get, but is this the case with a mid drive?

I do know the Stock Sur-Ron is weak and you can't even lift up the front wheel, at speed its impossible.

I know when I upgraded to the max-e that limited phase amps I had a lot of low end power loss compared to my lyen 18 fet. I complained a lot about this as it made the bike feel weak when going full throttle from a dead stop. We may be better off with the 8000 if we get more low end power, even though we would never come close to using the full battery amps or peak KW rating of the controller.

I think we need to take all this into consideration. Are there draw backs for going with too big of a controller, like the 8000?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by stonezone » Mar 19 2019 4:03am

Not sure why he’s got it installed that way either, the controller has it’s cooling shroud facing in that way. Also, the 8000 is almost the same size as the stock controller and mounts very clean (even in the proper orientation). I agree that you don’t need more power than the 4000 puts out but it’s very easy to limit the controller from puffing any batteries even not trip the stock packs bms. Regen is touchy with the stock pack, I’ve pulled 40a down a steep hill with regen cranked up, that’s fine for my pack but something over 5a and the stock pack needs to be power cycled.
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