Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

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smdub   1 mW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by smdub » Apr 08 2020 12:13pm

I run tube-less in my mtb wheels. Stans rims & sealant on 2.35" Panaracer 29s. Can run down to ~10psi before I have problems. That mostly manifests as rocks/sticks/mud getting shoved into the bead and dislodging it causing leaks. Its a great setup for mtb - won't ever go back to tubes there either.

TUBliss is different than both tube-less (like above Stans) and a typical moto rimlock though. Its equivalent to a bead-lock rim on the serious 4WD rigs. The TUBliss bladder creates a 360deg beadlock. That allows you to run all the way down to 0psi with no fear of breaking the bead off the rim from side loads or obstacles. Bicycle type tube-less goop can't do that.

FWIW, the new 19" TUBliss kit I have here weighs 890g incl rim tape.
The OEM lightweight SurRon tube is 316g. Can't put my hands on a rim-lock at the moment to weigh it.

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Offroader   100 MW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Apr 08 2020 1:16pm

I'm going with this one. Looks to work very well, why would I want to go with a metal bash guard?


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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by X-Nitro » Apr 08 2020 4:32pm

Talon rimlock 2.15" size bare no nuts 67g - Motion Pro Liteloc bare 2.15" 69g. :thumb:
:shock: 48v 1500w Custom 1/2 fatty bannaseat hardtail hub streetbike - The modern electric "stingray" mullet bike :bolt: E-Goat Sur-Ron

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by AZeBikeGuy » Apr 08 2020 5:20pm

Rix wrote:
Apr 08 2020 11:05am
No need to do that, I ran the Tubliss system on KTM XCF450, even flat, whacking the throttle and dumping the clutch, the tire didn't slip on the bead. No need for rimlock.
Tubliss system is a rimlock

Tubeless benefits from a rimlock at low pressures

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Apr 08 2020 6:04pm

Rix wrote:
Apr 08 2020 11:10am
I mostly agree with you Offroader. I was probably the first person to every run the SR241 on an ebike. My avatar pick from 2012 show the 3.00-17 on the rear of my Bomber. I ran 2.75 and 3.00 in both 17 and 18" wheel sizes, and they were better, hooked better, and performed better in all conditions than any other tire available.
I don't doubt its a good all-around tire. But I only ride off-road and think it looks like a poor off-road tire compared to knobbies.

The Sur Ron is clearly designed to be an off-road vehicle. Offroader's claim that 95% of people with Sur Rons are riding in cities seems ridiculous to me. Most of the Sur Ron videos on YT are off road for example. It is an off-road vehicle and people in the city are likely to use moto conversion kit.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by skyungjae » Apr 09 2020 7:03am

3DTOPO wrote:
Apr 08 2020 6:04pm
Rix wrote:
Apr 08 2020 11:10am
I mostly agree with you Offroader. I was probably the first person to every run the SR241 on an ebike. My avatar pick from 2012 show the 3.00-17 on the rear of my Bomber. I ran 2.75 and 3.00 in both 17 and 18" wheel sizes, and they were better, hooked better, and performed better in all conditions than any other tire available.
I don't doubt its a good all-around tire. But I only ride off-road and think it looks like a poor off-road tire compared to knobbies.

The Sur Ron is clearly designed to be an off-road vehicle. Offroader's claim that 95% of people with Sur Rons are riding in cities seems ridiculous to me. Most of the Sur Ron videos on YT are off road for example. It is an off-road vehicle and people in the city are likely to use moto conversion kit.
I think the lack of YT street videos is due to them being boring. Who wants to see another moto vlog of someone riding around town. :lol:
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by n2mb » Apr 09 2020 8:13am

Rix wrote:
Apr 08 2020 11:02am
n2mb wrote:
Apr 07 2020 12:44pm
Any recommendations for good 17" tires for the SM wheels? I have the street tires now. I would like to be able to occasionally go off-road on some easy trails, but will spend 90% of my time on the road.
M62 Michelin Gazelles. Best 80% onroad 20% offroad tire on the market for the size range. I ran this tire breifly on my Bomber back in 2012. It worked good off road, except in mud and sand. And it stuck like glue to the pavement. http://www.oasistires.com/tires/make/mi ... zelle-m62/
Bummer, discontinued:

***THESE ARE SADLY DISCONTINUED. YES. I AM SO SORRY. THE BELOVED MICHELIN GAZELLE, ONE OF THE GREATEST IF NOT THEE GREATEST TIRE EVER TO SWADDLE THE RIM OF A MOPED HAS BEEN DECLARED DECEASED BY MICHELIN. PLEASE, TAKE A MOMENT OF SILENCE IN RESPECT FOR THE LIFE OF A LEGEND***

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Ttwinsupra » Apr 09 2020 10:07am

Anyone got any inside info on when these, end of march/start of April, preorders will be shipping out? According to the luna site they are now taking may preorders on a group that has already en route to them... so im assuming the April ones are already there? Or ready to be shipped?
Im also slightly concerned because i ordered mine with free local pick up (im about 1.5 hrs away) but shortly after i paid i read on Facebook they are no longer accepting local pick up.... do you think they will just ship it to me? They haven't contacted me about it at all, if they did I was hoping i could have them leave it outside right before i showed up or something hahaha im just hoping they aren't gonna just add $188 shipping charge to my card randomly since i already paid for the bike in full a few weeks ago.... i got the paid confirmation email from luna and thats the last i heard from them...

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skyungjae   10 kW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by skyungjae » Apr 09 2020 1:25pm

Ttwinsupra wrote:
Apr 09 2020 10:07am
Anyone got any inside info on when these, end of march/start of April, preorders will be shipping out? According to the luna site they are now taking may preorders on a group that has already en route to them... so im assuming the April ones are already there? Or ready to be shipped?
Im also slightly concerned because i ordered mine with free local pick up (im about 1.5 hrs away) but shortly after i paid i read on Facebook they are no longer accepting local pick up.... do you think they will just ship it to me? They haven't contacted me about it at all, if they did I was hoping i could have them leave it outside right before i showed up or something hahaha im just hoping they aren't gonna just add $188 shipping charge to my card randomly since i already paid for the bike in full a few weeks ago.... i got the paid confirmation email from luna and thats the last i heard from them...
Call and send emails.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Rix   100 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Rix » Apr 09 2020 2:04pm

AZeBikeGuy wrote:
Apr 08 2020 5:20pm
Rix wrote:
Apr 08 2020 11:05am
No need to do that, I ran the Tubliss system on KTM XCF450, even flat, whacking the throttle and dumping the clutch, the tire didn't slip on the bead. No need for rimlock.
Tubliss system is a rimlock

Tubeless benefits from a rimlock at low pressures
I know that, thats why I said you don't need a rimlock, and I should have clarified "additional rimlock, and if running Tubliss, cant use an external rimlock anyway.

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Rix   100 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Rix » Apr 09 2020 2:10pm

3DTOPO wrote:
Apr 08 2020 6:04pm
Rix wrote:
Apr 08 2020 11:10am
I mostly agree with you Offroader. I was probably the first person to every run the SR241 on an ebike. My avatar pick from 2012 show the 3.00-17 on the rear of my Bomber. I ran 2.75 and 3.00 in both 17 and 18" wheel sizes, and they were better, hooked better, and performed better in all conditions than any other tire available.
I don't doubt its a good all-around tire. But I only ride off-road and think it looks like a poor off-road tire compared to knobbies.

The Sur Ron is clearly designed to be an off-road vehicle. Offroader's claim that 95% of people with Sur Rons are riding in cities seems ridiculous to me. Most of the Sur Ron videos on YT are off road for example. It is an off-road vehicle and people in the city are likely to use moto conversion kit.
I want to clarify, the M403 you are running, are better offroad, especially in the "hero dirt" that is Crouch Idaho 8 months per year. The SR241 dont work quite as good off road, but work way better on road and does everything good, and nothing super great.

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Offroader   100 MW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Apr 09 2020 2:28pm

skyungjae wrote:
Apr 09 2020 7:03am
3DTOPO wrote:
Apr 08 2020 6:04pm
Rix wrote:
Apr 08 2020 11:10am
I mostly agree with you Offroader. I was probably the first person to every run the SR241 on an ebike. My avatar pick from 2012 show the 3.00-17 on the rear of my Bomber. I ran 2.75 and 3.00 in both 17 and 18" wheel sizes, and they were better, hooked better, and performed better in all conditions than any other tire available.
I don't doubt its a good all-around tire. But I only ride off-road and think it looks like a poor off-road tire compared to knobbies.

The Sur Ron is clearly designed to be an off-road vehicle. Offroader's claim that 95% of people with Sur Rons are riding in cities seems ridiculous to me. Most of the Sur Ron videos on YT are off road for example. It is an off-road vehicle and people in the city are likely to use moto conversion kit.
I think the lack of YT street videos is due to them being boring. Who wants to see another moto vlog of someone riding around town. :lol:
I think most of us drive a combination of city streets and off road. I doubt many people are putting Sur-rons in their trucks and driving them to off-road trails.

I drive probably 70%-30% street/off road riding. This is because of having to ride to where I off-road the bike. Time wise, I probably spend 50% offroad and 50% street, its just that riding on the street you travel so far and so fast. This is why I don't want any dedicated off-road tires.

Many of the hard core dirt bike riders don't want anything to do with electric. I know because I read posts about electric bikes on the dirt bike forums and they hated anything about them. Why would they want to deal with electric and range, power limited bikes.

Most of us here probably have come from hub motored bikes which were not great off-road bikes. I doubt many people are just going to start riding hard core off-road, needing dedicated off-road tires. Most here probably do mostly street with the occasional off-roading.

I bet 3DTOPO probably comes from gas dirt bikes and lives out in the country someplace and thinks most of the ebike users here are like that. That is probably not the case. Most of the electric bike riders probably live in urban areas and probably never see any off-road riding at all. The other thing is that 3DTOPO seems to be like many of the dirt bike riders who post in the dirt bike forum in how they come across, very typical of most of the people over at thumpertalk.com.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by smdub » Apr 09 2020 2:56pm

Trials type tires excel at gnarly technical terrain. The soft sidewalls are not good for going fast. There is a reason the hybrid tires have closer knob spacing than motocross knobbies designed to run on a loamy track.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0h2-tvb9KXw
Offroader wrote:
Apr 09 2020 2:28pm
I think most of us drive a combination of city streets and off road. I doubt many people are putting Sur-rons in their trucks and driving them to off-road trails.
I'm sure its mixed more than you think. I put the SurRon in the truck/van and drive to an off-road trail. Same as my mountain bike even though that trail is ~3mi away. I live 5 mi outside DC city limits. I have no desire to ever ride the SurRon on the road - there is no fun in it for me. The only fellow I know near me w/ one does the same - 100% offroad.

Many dirt riders poo e-bikes because of the range issue. If you're doing a full day ride, the battery won't keep up. The Alta was awesome but no longer. It would be perfect for me riding a half day at technical places like Hatfield-McCoy here out east (we only burned a ~1/2 tank of fuel each day.) It probably cant keep up for a day of bombing through the desert at high speed out west. Going fast kills the battery too quick (just as it goes through gasoline fast too.) I've only killed the SurRon battery once when we were at the farm and was whoring it out, everyone bombing around the woods trails at high speed max throttle.

Edit: I agree most people *HERE* might ride more on the street. No one I know who rides dirt bikes has ever heard of this place. My dirt buddies are over on places like ADVrider and tend not to post much anyway. Just goes to show different strokes for different folks. Don't make assumptions based on a limited sphere (ha!) of feedback.

Ttwinsupra   1 mW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Ttwinsupra » Apr 09 2020 3:03pm

skyungjae wrote:
Apr 09 2020 1:25pm


Call and send emails.
Im trying to avoid this and get some real info here tho :,(

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3DTOPO   1 kW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Apr 09 2020 6:04pm

Offroader wrote:
Apr 09 2020 2:28pm
I doubt many people are putting Sur-rons in their trucks and driving them to off-road trails.
I think that is an ignorant claim to make. That said, I don't need to load it in a truck, there is dirt from my driveway to the mountain peaks here.
Offroader wrote:
Apr 09 2020 2:28pm
I drive probably 70%-30% street/off road riding. This is because of having to ride to where I off-road the bike. Time wise, I probably spend 50% offroad and 50% street, its just that riding on the street you travel so far and so fast. This is why I don't want any dedicated off-road tires.
You live in New York City don't you? In any event, based on your videos, what you call "off road" is riding on grass and cute little maintained park trails - hardly actual off-road.
Offroader wrote:
Apr 09 2020 2:28pm
Many of the hard core dirt bike riders don't want anything to do with electric. I know because I read posts about electric bikes on the dirt bike forums and they hated anything about them. Why would they want to deal with electric and range, power limited bikes.
For one, that has and is continuing to change. Electric dirt bikes are showing up at heats and even betting their IC brethren.

For two, there are plenty of people that are not "hard core dirt bike riders" and think the Sur Ron is just about perfect.
Offroader wrote:
Apr 09 2020 2:28pm
Most of us here probably have come from hub motored bikes which were not great off-road bikes. I doubt many people are just going to start riding hard core off-road, needing dedicated off-road tires. Most here probably do mostly street with the occasional off-roading.
Fine! Use whatever you think is best for yourself, but you don't need to make ridiculous and unfounded claims.

The Sur Ron is clearly designed and marketed to be an off-road vehicle. Proof of that is it comes with "dedicated off-road tires". As such, there is no doubt that a great deal of Sur Ron customers are in-fact using it as it was intended. Also, just based on this thread, I have seen far more tires and configurations for off-roading than on-roading.
Offroader wrote:
Apr 09 2020 2:28pm
I bet 3DTOPO probably comes from gas dirt bikes and lives out in the country someplace and thinks most of the ebike users here are like that. That is probably not the case. Most of the electric bike riders probably live in urban areas and probably never see any off-road riding at all.
Now to try to justify your weak argument, you are not talking about Sur Ron riders, you are talking about ebikes in general. I agree most bike riders and therefore ebike riders live in cities. The Sur Ron is much closer to a motocross bike than it is to an ebike.

If the Sur Ron was designed as a street bike then it would come with street tires, and I would not be making the argument that a large portion of the user base runs them off-road. But you are making that argument in reverse.

Rather than recommending what is best for everyone (as you have done many times in the past), or what is best for the majority of people, why not just state that you like something and that it works for you? Why try to tell everyone what is best for them?

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Rix   100 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Rix » Apr 09 2020 8:03pm

Offroader wrote:
Apr 08 2020 1:16pm
I'm going with this one. Looks to work very well, why would I want to go with a metal bash guard?

Yah the metal bashgaurd is tough. Sledge hammer proof. :bigthumb:

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3DTOPO   1 kW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Apr 09 2020 9:43pm

Rix wrote:
Apr 09 2020 8:03pm
Offroader wrote:
Apr 08 2020 1:16pm
I'm going with this one. Looks to work very well, why would I want to go with a metal bash guard?

Yah the metal bashgaurd is tough. Sledge hammer proof. :bigthumb:
Did you mean to say the HDPE bashguard is tough?

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skyungjae   10 kW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by skyungjae » Apr 10 2020 8:25am

Ttwinsupra wrote:
Apr 09 2020 3:03pm
skyungjae wrote:
Apr 09 2020 1:25pm


Call and send emails.
Im trying to avoid this and get some real info here tho :,(
The squeaky wheel gets the grease. Luna's customer service is supposedly pretty good.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Ttwinsupra   1 mW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Ttwinsupra » Apr 10 2020 10:06am

skyungjae wrote:
Apr 10 2020 8:25am
Ttwinsupra wrote:
Apr 09 2020 3:03pm
skyungjae wrote:
Apr 09 2020 1:25pm


Call and send emails.
Im trying to avoid this and get some real info here tho :,(
The squeaky wheel gets the grease. Luna's customer service is supposedly pretty good.
Ya but i would say its still pretty early in the month, and id like to start sending my annoying emails later on down the road if it doesn't show up, im also not really trying to draw attention to my order hoping that it will just be shipped out, since they are all shipped out, i dont want to give them an opportunity to try and ask for shipping costs hahaha, they aslo kinda have me by the balls with this, they can say just about anything for my order and ill have to do it so, just trying to keep quiet for now and hopefully i wont be annoying enough that they wont let me at least pick it up outside the shop.... allllso ive contacted luna before and it took about a week to get a reply from them i can only assume in this quarantine time they have even less staff so the reply time would be even worse so this was probably the best bet for me personally as of right now. Thanks for the suggestion tho, ill probably do it in abouta week if i cant get info here :)

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Kauaiguy » Apr 10 2020 11:41am

I ride off-road with my Surron,it’s fun passing my ic buddy’s bikes on the trail .

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Offroader   100 MW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Apr 10 2020 12:02pm

3DTOPO wrote:
Apr 09 2020 6:04pm


Rather than recommending what is best for everyone (as you have done many times in the past), or what is best for the majority of people, why not just state that you like something and that it works for you? Why try to tell everyone what is best for them?


You have to understand, I want to generate ideas here and I want people to tell me how that isn't the best tire. If you or anyone else can tell me a better tire, then please tell me a better tire and the reasons why. I want other people to also say what they consider the best tire is. This is how we learn or at least how I learn what is out there and what is suitable for the Sur-Ron.

Yes, I want to be provocative by saying its the "best", and it obviously works as people are more likely to try and refute my claim . This is what I want to motivate people to talk about my claim or refuting it to prove me wrong and sharing their opinion.

I would hope people are smart enough here to always research what they want before buying and not just seeing someone post this is the best and buy it.

To make it more clear, here is why a trials tire is probably the best all around tire for the rear. I laid out my reasons why in every post what I like about this tire and compared it to the stock.

Trials tire are made with soft compound and side walls that flex. This is very important because the sur-ron is light weight and the softer the sidewalls and tread compound the better. The Shinko 241 is the tire I like because it has soft compound and is a trials tire. If you buy a tire that has too hard side walls the tire will feel very harsh and you may not be able to mitigate this harshness with dropping the PSI of the tire. There could be better trials tires out there than the shinko 241.

Trials tires are good off-road and on-road. Good grip on slipper roots,rocks, and probably has decent grip on wet concrete. How much traction do you really need on this low powered sur-ron? Trials tire ride very smooth on the street and because of the tread pattern have a lot of contact with the ground and wear out less quickly.

Tire wears more slowly, which is why the stock tire is not suitable because it will wear out in 500 miles when riding both street and offroad. Shinko 241, even though it has a soft compound, wears slowly because of the larger tread pattern.

Trials tire do not rip up trails and grass. The sur-ron knobby tires rip up all the grass and trails very easily in the parks, the trials tire much less so. This should be a concern to many people here because many urban riders are limited to where they can ride and don't want to rip up all the grass and trails.

The 18x3.00 size is a very good size because it matches the front stock tire size. The engineers who designed the sur-ron into a great bike surely designed it around 19" wheels and a certain geometry and the bike handles great. I doubt messing around with changing a lot of these variables is a good idea. I'm average height and I see no reason to raise the bike higher with larger tires or change other variables. If this was an issue then you may want to raise the height with larger tires, but you could hurt handling. I did a lot of research into downhill racing and all these geometry changes are huge and make big differences, you just can't stop swapping in different size wheels and messing with this stuff without messing with the handling of the bike.

Am I 100% happy with the shinko 241 trials tire? NO, it weighs 7lbs and is still way too heavy for the Sur-Ron and its bicycle suspension made and designed for 2 lbs tires. The Sur-ROn doesn't need such a beefy tire made for bikes that weigh over 300 lbs, but unfortunately they don't design light weight tires for these small electric bikes. I don't think you can find any 2 ply, 18x3.00" tires. The Sur-Ron tire is 2 ply and that is why its very flexible and light weight.

Good video talking about the trials tire

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by X-Nitro » Apr 10 2020 1:09pm

Most dirt bike guys will be happy to move on to the boom bee. The more popular ebikes are the more regulation they will receive.
:shock: 48v 1500w Custom 1/2 fatty bannaseat hardtail hub streetbike - The modern electric "stingray" mullet bike :bolt: E-Goat Sur-Ron

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by AZeBikeGuy » Apr 10 2020 5:29pm

In my moto days, discussing tires, chain maintenance or motor oil was akin to discussing religion and politics

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Apr 10 2020 5:38pm

Offroader wrote:
Apr 10 2020 12:02pm
You have to understand, I want to generate ideas here and I want people to tell me how that isn't the best tire. If you or anyone else can tell me a better tire, then please tell me a better tire and the reasons why.
I have meticulously replied to your posts point by point that you in-turn mostly ignored and/or glazed over. That makes having a 2-sided conversation about this topic impossible. It's like trying to have a conversation with a person with their ears plugged, but they don't know or don't care that they can't hear so they keep making arguments.

And now you are mostly just repeating yourself. I'm not going to rebut your arguments again and again.
Offroader wrote:
Apr 10 2020 12:02pm
To make it more clear, here is why a trials tire is probably the best all around tire for the rear
I don't doubt it's a good all around tire (and have even said so). But you had made the ridiculous claim that it's the best tire for everyone which is rubbish.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Rix » Apr 11 2020 10:19pm

At 3Dtopo and Offroader. Being that I ran both the Bridgestone M403 and Shinko SR241 on both SurRons, on pavement and every kind off road conditions including snow, I think I can provide some insight on the tire discussion. 1st and formost, both the M403 and SR241 are probably the best tire options that can found in the Lightbee sizes. I know there are other 70/100-19 or 2.75-19 tire options out there, I have tried most and the M403 and SR241 are top of the list for the riding that I do. Until Motoz comes out with a hybrid tractionator tire that fits our rims, these are the best. If I lived and rode where 3DTopo lives, I would never run anything but a the M403, which BTW, has been discontinued, now we got the M203 which is a slightly softer rubber compound, or the X20 and X30. Of course there are knobby tires out there by other Tire MFG we can dip into for knobby options. That said, I ride a lot of places that have a mix of sand and lava rock, and the SR241 likes the lava rock better than the M403. I think when Offroader eluded to the trials tire being the best all around tire out there, I interpreted the tone as if he was going to recommend one tire for anybody that didn't know what they needed, this is the safest and best option as far as not being disappointed. Moving on. Today I got my newest lightbee running. Had to replace the controller which actually tied me up for a couple of hours. Holy SHIIITT!. This is way better of an improvement in power delivery and modulation over the older model. With my 55T on the rear, I hit 46MPH according to the radar trailer, I think with my my green one I hit 38 or 39MPH. I need to check my notes to be sure but thats what I recall. I am very impressed with the performance. While I had things apart, I got rid of the brake and kickstand safety wires. Now I need focus on suspension........
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