Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

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fechter   100 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by fechter » Feb 23 2018 9:07am

I don't think the pedals were ever meant to actually pedal the bike. They are just there to meet regulatory requirements.

It does seem possible to make a more functional pedal system though. Something that drives the jack shaft and has the right gearing could be done, but it would likely be expensive. You'd need to gear up the crank speed quite a bit to match the jack shaft speed. Something like a Pinion gear box.
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by RemoteRoad » Feb 23 2018 11:20am

fechter wrote:
Feb 23 2018 9:07am
I don't think the pedals were ever meant to actually pedal the bike. They are just there to meet regulatory requirements.

It does seem possible to make a more functional pedal system though. Something that drives the jack shaft and has the right gearing could be done, but it would likely be expensive. You'd need to gear up the crank speed quite a bit to match the jack shaft speed. Something like a Pinion gear box.
This sounds really interesting. Would like to gain a better picture of the possibility.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by macribs » Feb 23 2018 11:37am

Aebrennan wrote:
Feb 22 2018 7:36pm
macribs wrote:
Feb 22 2018 3:14pm
Aebrennan wrote:
Feb 21 2018 6:26pm
I understand the idea of wanting pedals, but was never intended to be an e-bike it was always an e-moto.

The pedal kit is a slap on afterthought,and will be hilarious to see a full size american pedal this thing. I doubt anyone will be comfortable trying to ride it like a bicycle.
Have you seen the video of the 5foot asian guy struggle to ride it? He looks like a clown!
Even as an e-moto one would expect Sur Ron to keep up the great work that they have done from the ground up. I mean even if I was not a Sur Ron fan in start due to bad communication with them via email, I got turned around by seing people post pics, ride reports and videos. The Sur Ron is fantastic and so is the price.

However what they did with the pedals was left hand work at the best. Its like they didn't even take 5 minutes to think things through, they just threw some ideas together probably while getting drunk and the next day they executed those ideas as quick as possible and presented Sur Ron pedalac. Sur Ron din not even noticing that by adding the pedal kit they actually ruined the whole idea of bike being a light weight mid drive in the process. If anything, they should have put an even bigger rear sprocket on rather the the smaller one.

In fact they should have left the drive train alone, and shouldn't have done any changes to it at all. They should rather find a way to make pedal works without ruining the bike. Maybe left side pedals. Or taken the motoped approach and done an additional jackshaft sprocket for crank chain with crank freewheel, having just one chain from jacshaft to rear wheel. Pedals could be mounted with a bb attached way forward with so short crank arms that the pedals would not interfere with the foot pegs.

Now actually riding by pedals might be uncomfy, might not be possible to do for a long stretch at time, might look sad stupid and some people would despite such a bike. Then there would be others that would happily swipe their credit card to get an the e-moto (w/pedals) of 2018 that legally could be ridden in town, up and down city streets, in single tracks in state parks, ridden where mtb and dh riders go, or even explore the outdoor riding along foot paths and hike trails without risking to get the bike impounded. That would be a clever way of slapping on pedals. That would leave the Sur Ron intact handling and running as it was designed to from the start.
Has anyone considered the possibly that Sur-ron just wants to produce e-moto and not e-bikes!
Has anyone considered the fact that these bikes are built in the hub of worldwide e-bike manufacturing.
Has anyone asked Elon Musk to do a petrol model Tesla?
If you ain't got nothing to say, next time try saying nothing. Petrol Tesla? Been smoking much?
We all know where Sur Ron is made, what do that have to do with keeping up with the quality of the Sur Ron e-moto?

I don't now if you just did a hit and miss now, or if you somehow feel my post was a personal attack at you as a person. I can assure you my post got nothing to do with you, and reflects nothing on you or your involvement with Sur Ron. Don't feel hurt or feel the need to defend Sur Ron's poor take on the pedal kit. The pedal kit is flawed. Period. The pedal kit is pure useless as it was presented, and the pedal kit ruins a great mid drive e-moto and make a new almost useless electric bike with pedals.

Again, I am not lashing out at you here so don't take this personal. My criticism was against the stupid attempt from Sur Ron to make a street legal/single track legal Sur Ron. They made the pedal Sur Ron legal all right, but in the process they ruined the bike completely.

I am pretty sure we will see aftermarket pedal kits from 3rd parties that will rectify the wrong doings from Sur Ron, a pedal kit that will keep all whats great with Sur Ron and then add pedals just for legal reasons. Such a kit does not need to be superior in use, it does not need to be great for pedaling 50 miles rides. Such a kit will only need to deal with the legal issues. It just need to present pedals that can actually move the bike while not messing up the original drive unit. And when such a kit is available or when bikes are COC'd so one can get plates and a pink slip that will be the day I put in my order for a Sur Ron.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by macribs » Feb 23 2018 11:53am

LeftieBiker wrote:
Feb 23 2018 1:35am
Does the pedal kit already have the potential to work just as a fake pedal setup? I assume it has a freewheel mechanism to let the bike move faster than you can pedal, so can the freewheel be disconnected from the rest of the kit, leaving pedals that turn without doing anything else? Better still would be a freewheel that can be engaged or disengaged at will (although not necessarily while riding) so you can stand on the pedals to ride (or on folding or quick-remove footpegs) and then pedal the bike if it's disabled...
I don't know if it got freewheel, I would assume it does. But that is not the major issue with the pedal kit. Look at pics of the pedal kit, What they have done is putting a tiny rear sprocket on the rear wheel. Taking away that great torque the Sur Ron e-moto got. Then look at the gearing for the pedals. You can't really expect to pedal the bike anyway, so why ruin the great torque in the process?

As far as I can tell from the pics, they removed the foot pegs. And take a close look to see where the pedals are...moved back from where the foot pegs where mounted. From judging the pics it seems that will make for a very awkward riding position, even if you don't pedal and just ride by throttle. And did I mention you lost all that great torque when the rear sprocket changed....

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » Feb 23 2018 12:58pm

Aebrennan wrote:
Feb 22 2018 8:27pm
RemoteRoad wrote:
Feb 22 2018 8:05pm
Now Aebrennan, you really do know the answer here.

The fact is the Sur-Ron isn't fundamentally different from other higher capacity e-bikes. It's not so different from a Stealth Bomber, or Raptor, etc...

Battery, motor, controller, bike components.

And it is offering a value that MAJORLY exceeds these other offerings or what can be built (by most at least) in component form on this value front.

So of course its going to be looked at and modified in a variety of ways to take advantage of this major value advantage.
They are totally different.
They are motorbikes not bicycles.
They are designed by engineers that want to produce modern motorcycles.
I want them to build physically bigger and more powerful off road and road motorbikes, not go backwards and get into the overpowered bicycle market. I think their effort at a pedal kit should serve as a clear message. DILLIGAF
Sur-ron is more of a moped (or "motor driven cycle") than a motorcycle imo.. moped is a (legal) vehicle classification based primarily on power level (with or without pedals).. with some minor modifications Sur-ron could readily be either, both or interchangeable between emoto and ebike.. if its what the market (majority) wants then why wouldn't the manufacturer respond to market demand if it would translate into more bike sales.. the main goal for any manufacturer is to maximize sales and profit.. to do that they must produce a great product at a reasonable price, AND continue with product development and evolution of the design.. motoped is a good example of a bike easily convertible from motorcycle to moped back and forth easily or both.. unfortunately the inventor sold the patent and the new owners have done very little to continue product development and sales have suffered because of it as the competition continues to evolve their product designs.. it will be interesting to see what "light bee" may look like next year and over time..
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by LeftieBiker » Feb 23 2018 4:33pm

don't know if it got freewheel, I would assume it does. But that is not the major issue with the pedal kit. Look at pics of the pedal kit, What they have done is putting a tiny rear sprocket on the rear wheel. Taking away that great torque the Sur Ron e-moto got. Then look at the gearing for the pedals. You can't really expect to pedal the bike anyway, so why ruin the great torque in the process?
It's already been noted that the US seller won't be using the small rear sprocket with the kit. I agree with the pedal position being bad, which is why I was thinking of quick-attach footpegs.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by macribs » Feb 23 2018 6:56pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
Feb 23 2018 4:33pm
don't know if it got freewheel, I would assume it does. But that is not the major issue with the pedal kit. Look at pics of the pedal kit, What they have done is putting a tiny rear sprocket on the rear wheel. Taking away that great torque the Sur Ron e-moto got. Then look at the gearing for the pedals. You can't really expect to pedal the bike anyway, so why ruin the great torque in the process?
It's already been noted that the US seller won't be using the small rear sprocket with the kit. I agree with the pedal position being bad, which is why I was thinking of quick-attach footpegs.
This would be luna cycles? Are they making their own take on the pedal kit from the ground up to also better the awkward foot position or just swapping to correct sprockets? AFAIK luna will not sell bikes to EU but might be willing to ship a pedal kit?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by LeftieBiker » Feb 24 2018 1:44am

macribs wrote:
Feb 23 2018 6:56pm
LeftieBiker wrote:
Feb 23 2018 4:33pm
don't know if it got freewheel, I would assume it does. But that is not the major issue with the pedal kit. Look at pics of the pedal kit, What they have done is putting a tiny rear sprocket on the rear wheel. Taking away that great torque the Sur Ron e-moto got. Then look at the gearing for the pedals. You can't really expect to pedal the bike anyway, so why ruin the great torque in the process?
It's already been noted that the US seller won't be using the small rear sprocket with the kit. I agree with the pedal position being bad, which is why I was thinking of quick-attach footpegs.
This would be luna cycles? Are they making their own take on the pedal kit from the ground up to also better the awkward foot position or just swapping to correct sprockets? AFAIK luna will not sell bikes to EU but might be willing to ship a pedal kit?
Yes, Luna Cycles. It looks like they just use the kit with the larger rear sprocket. No other obvious modifications.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by RemoteRoad » Feb 24 2018 3:38am

Yep. I communicated with Luna extensively on this and you can see the pics of their testbed bike for the pedal kit on their forum. Factory kit with the larger sprocket.

Not perfect by any means, but I calculated on it being workable for the time being, relatively inexpensive, and easily removed. I like the idea of Pinion gearbox setup or the sort that the Stealth Bomber uses (or is that a pinion gearbox too?) a lot, apart from adhering to local mandates.

Potentially extending the range of the bike substantially through adding human power is highly desireable for me, as well as having a secondary drive system. Converting body calories into tire energy remains a really fabulous aspect of lightweight bikes.

Certainly a custom bracket would be needed. Main thing I'm wondering is if anyone sees a possible solution for mounting such gearboxes/pedal setups onto the more robust, and non-suspension interfering main body, rather than the swingarm?

I'm also thinking a higher seating position can make pedaling more viable. Bars can be raised to match. Hoping someone will produce a kit to accomplish replacing the moto seat with something like a cruiser bicycle saddle, if that would improve the pedaling.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » Feb 24 2018 1:26pm

Aebrennan wrote:
Feb 21 2018 5:24am
Another mod that will need to be done is a better shroud for the primary gear on the reduction shaft.

After one day at a mx track i found the belt begin to get noisy, and after a thorough clean i noticed this wear on the gear.

I would recommend anyone contemplating a secondary belt drive to steer clear of coarse dirt/sand or enclose the drive completely.
enclosing the belt drive (primary nor secondary) to keep out trail debris, etc probably isn't a great idea because according to Gates belt manual, belt drive needs adequate ventilation at high rpm or it can overheat and potentially damage the belt.. also any shroud or enclosure around the belt drive could trap any debris that may sneak its way into the enclosure potentially causing more belt and or sprocket damage than no shroud/ enclosure..

example :

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 25#p899125
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by fechter » Feb 24 2018 1:31pm

Just a simple fender arrangement that keeps spray coming from the wheels off the belt would be enough. It can be open on the sides. As long as the bike is moving, the belt will get enough air flow to keep it cool.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » Feb 24 2018 1:51pm

RemoteRoad wrote:
Feb 24 2018 3:38am
Yep. I communicated with Luna extensively on this and you can see the pics of their testbed bike for the pedal kit on their forum. Factory kit with the larger sprocket.

Not perfect by any means, but I calculated on it being workable for the time being, relatively inexpensive, and easily removed. I like the idea of Pinion gearbox setup or the sort that Stealth Bomber uses (or is that a pinion gearbox too?) a lot, apart from adhering to local mandates.

Potentially extending the range of the bike substantially through adding human power is highly desireable for me, as well as having a secondary drive system. Converting body calories into tire energy remains a really fabulous aspect of lightweight bikes.

Certainly a custom bracket would be needed. Main thing I'm wondering is if anyone sees a possible solution for mounting such gearboxes/pedal setups onto the more robust, and non-suspension interfering main body, rather than the swingarm?


I'm also thinking a higher seating position can make pedaling more viable. Bars can be raised to match. Hoping someone will produce a kit to accomplish replacing the moto seat with something like a cruiser bicycle saddle, if that would improve the pedaling.
stealth bomber and mammoth ebike use the suntour Vboxx gearbox for the pedal transmission.. its pretty bulky so would not readily fit on the Sur-ron without significant modification.. pinion is smaller and lighter but more expensive.. another option to consider may be Effigear gear box, it looks a lot less complicated than the suntour gearbox.. fitting any of these gearbox options may be better left to the manufacturer as they would likely require some redesign of the frame chassis to get a good fit on the light bee.. another option for Sur-ron to consider in a future version may be to get rid of the jackshaft reduction and use a lower kv motor speed with the motor mounted concentric to the swingarm pivot, thereby eliminating motor influence on the rear suspension and moving the motor back a bit to make more space for a pedal kit, transmission or gearbox..

since the seat strut is bolted on it should be fairly easy to offer or make different sized seat struts to fit different sized riders or to adjust the seat height, or run a bicycle type seat strut and saddle if desired.. i think that LMX bikes plan to offer a basic pedal kit for the US market version of their emoto.. I have not seen it yet but i think that it consists of pedal kit in front of the motor with a chain going to a freewheel on the motor shaft.. similar to the SEV electric bike "moped kit".. but its designed primarily for legality over actual intended heavy pedal use / function..
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by Aebrennan » Feb 24 2018 2:37pm

enclosing the belt drive (primary nor secondary) to keep out trail debris, etc probably isn't a great idea because according to Gates belt manual, belt drive needs adequate ventilation at high rpm or it can overheat and potentially damage the belt.. also any shroud or enclosure around the belt drive could trap any debris that may sneak its way into the enclosure potentially causing more belt and or sprocket damage than no shroud/ enclosure..

example :

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 25#p899125
[/quote

Thanks but none of my bikes have a gates belt.

Why do all automotive manufacturers have timing covers surrounding a timing belt?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » Feb 24 2018 3:12pm

i don't think that Sur-ron is using an automotive grade timing belt on the light bee, so it may not be engineered for the added heat from an enclosure.. but try it and see and report back your results and mileage.. maybe measure with a heat sensor gun, with and without the belt enclosure..
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by macribs » Feb 24 2018 4:47pm

Some snowmobilers that run heavy turbo kits and more then 300 hp have started to use temp sensors to monitor the belt temperature, to avoid belt failure in critical situations like high marking serious steep mountains or climbing narrow shutes where belt failure will cause cause havoc. Results shows that most of the time there will be a heat spike before belt failure, so they have time to abort the climb if the temp rises above critical.

Should work well for timing belts also.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by Allex » Feb 25 2018 10:42am

Todays ride was great.
We hade two Sur-Rons and one NYX with 20s battery mini-e and mxus3k 4t motor with 24" MTB wheels. Power is 5,7kW Peak on this bike

I was on the NYX and honestly, did had a hard time to keep up with the guys on mid-drives. The motor overheated once, after a really steep and technical climb while the sur-ron just continued like nothing happened.
Only way I could outrun them was on even roads. Once we came on the paved road we could see hte hub motor shine having a tad more punch and higher top speed(video coming). Once we were in snow or rough terrain the hub motor was horrible. But we all know how it is.

The RST fork works surprisingly good, this is a much better fork that I once owned a couple of years back. If you are a heavy rider it is best to take the FastAce. We had a light rider and a heavy one. RST was too soft for the big guy and he felt much more secure with the heavy duty one.
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by Rix » Feb 25 2018 11:00am

Nice little winter ride there. looks cold and fun at the same time. How did the batteries perform? What kind of volt sag did you see?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by Allex » Feb 25 2018 11:16am

Not too cold actually, I was warm due to struggle with the NYX in bad terrain.
Whats volt sag? :mrgreen: This bike is all about riding and nothing about information.
Here is the cockpit, you can basically see three things, battery percentage, speed and trip.

We were out for about an hour and had 30% left in the battery after 25km
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by Rix » Feb 25 2018 3:56pm

Whats volt sag? This bike is all about riding and nothing about information.
Here is the cockpit, you can basically see three things, battery percentage, speed and trip.
I see said the blind man. Talk about keeping it simple/stupid, I like it. Motomoto has a new vid out where he is chasing a guy on RMZ450, whats funny is, he is staying with him. 5HP vs 65HP. I attribute some of this to rider skill.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by macribs » Feb 25 2018 4:52pm

Haven't seen that one Rix. Didn't find it by search on youtube. Got a link for that video?

Never mind, found his earlier videos in the bookmarks.


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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by Rix » Feb 25 2018 9:20pm

macribs wrote:
Feb 25 2018 4:52pm
Haven't seen that one Rix. Didn't find it by search on youtube. Got a link for that video?

Never mind, found his earlier videos in the bookmarks.

[e]
Yah, this is the one I was talking about. Kim was hanging with that guy and actually eating him in the tight sections as he was carrying more speed in to the corners.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by skeetab5780 » Feb 26 2018 12:20pm

Rix wrote:
Feb 25 2018 9:20pm
macribs wrote:
Feb 25 2018 4:52pm
Haven't seen that one Rix. Didn't find it by search on youtube. Got a link for that video?

Never mind, found his earlier videos in the bookmarks.

[e]
Yah, this is the one I was talking about. Kim was hanging with that guy and actually eating him in the tight sections as he was carrying more speed in to the corners.
Sur-ron sounds nice and quiet in the beginning of this video compared to other audio I've heard.

The 450 couldn't seem to find the throttle, this is definitely rider skill...but it is still cool to be able to get on a track with a gas bike either way

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by macribs » Feb 26 2018 2:10pm

Yeah it didn't seem that the 450 rider was working really hard, nor revving hard either out of bends and corners. On the flats when he crack open the throttle he pulls rapidly away from the Sur Ron, then 450 riders play it safe in each bend.

I think in all honesty that for the Sur Ron to really match the performance of a 450 cc mx we should see power electric peak power like what the Joby motors got. Here Tolman2 is riding his Joby powered bike against gasser on a gras-track. Iirc Toolman2's ride peak at 20-25 kw. He also has a video of him riding against 450's on an oval dirt track/speedway track. Click his youtuber to see that as well. Still it is cool riding of motomoto against the 450, I just don't think that the video show the whole truth and nothing bout the truth :)


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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by Skaiwerd » Feb 26 2018 4:23pm

Obviously those in the know won’t buy here.
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike from China

Post by Hyena » Feb 26 2018 5:08pm

I dont know how many of you guys have ridden 450s but they're worlds apart from the surron and not really even fair comparing. They have an absolute shit-tonne more power and the only reason the surron comes close in the tight stuff is because they can't put the power down. That's actually the main reason I don't like them for the sort of riding I do. The rear tyre is about 3x the width of the surron but as soon as you really try to get on the power it's just instant wheel spin. Epic torque until the tyre breaks loose, and if you're a noob it'll bite you in the arse! Physically they're a much bigger bike and you can't throw them around like a surron. Around triple the weight and the seat height is probably around 6" higher. There's no way I could crawl over logs and rocks or maneuver vertically through gates like I can on the surron. For riding around on a farm, fire trails and dirt roads they're good but for the sort of riding I like to do on the surron, if I had to have another ICE bike I'd be looking at a 125 2 stroke instead.

Anyway here's my latest VLOG on the surron - talking about some of my mods, and another crash!

www.HyenaElectricBikes.com
Aussie high powered e-bike kits and custom performance ebikes
New FUTR and Hyena special edition Beta frames now available!
My build and HD video thread____. My youtube channel____ Hyena Facebook page
My bike is writing cheques my body can't cash...

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