Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by smdub » Dec 08 2020 12:36pm

Anyone have the DVO Onyx DC fork option? Wondering if it has as much clearance between the legs as a Fox 40. Wondering if my 2.75"x21 wheel/tire will also fit in the DVO fork (fits the Fox but does NOT fit the stock RST Killah fork.) I sent a support email off to DVO but not sure how quick they'll get back to me.

Also, My Nuc24 controller showed up yesterday. Can't wait to get it installed!

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Finer » Dec 08 2020 6:17pm

I recently installed the new DVO Onyx fork on my bike. A 21 inch wheel will easily fit. I have a brand new Maxxis IT tire up front that has a taller profile and knobs than the stock one and there's still two and a half inches of clearance to the fork brace.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Finer » Dec 08 2020 7:03pm

The DVO also has about a half inch clearance on each side of the tire. I couldn't even force the 100/70 maxxis tire in the RST fork.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by smdub » Dec 08 2020 11:09pm

Thanks! Thats the 70/100-19 Maxis IT? Could you take a pic? Does it get narrower at the bridge? My tire is probably similar width as yours but will be ~1" closer to the bridge (25" vs 27.1" OD spec)

DVO got back to me quickly but they aren't used to those sized tires/rims so couldn't answer.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Finer » Dec 08 2020 11:23pm

The Maxxis IT is a very wide tire for a 70-100 and it would still clear at the narrowest part of the fork near the bridge by about 3/8" on each side.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by mr.skywalker » Dec 09 2020 11:43am

liveforphysics wrote:
May 01 2018 4:44pm
Stock BMS has 16 x 5mOhm surface mount resistors composing the shunt (0.31mOhm combined). We just doubled up each resistor and it's enough to get everything the OEM pack can deliver to a hotrod controller, and still has functional over voltage, under voltage, and over-temp protection. Soldering work looks awful because it's an aluminum PCB and our iron's weren't high enough power.

Image

Image
Im supposed to be getting a new BAC4000 in a month or so and Id like to keep the BMS fully functional vs the common bypass.

Ive been looking at doing this mod but since the stock cells are rated for 10A continuous Im concerned about doing the 1/2 final resistance doubling the amps as that would allow the amps to 14.5amps per cell which I'm sure is fine for a short burst but Id rather keep a little more life than squeeze out the most power possible. By my calcs a 10 mohm would drop the overall resistance to 0.22mohm which would bring it to about 120A which sounds about perfect to me with the 11p configuration. Is there a reason not to go this route? Im new to modding electronics but have done a few simple ones but this seems straight forward.

And last question is for sourcing these types of resistors, would these be the right type? or what size should I find for this?
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Vi ... 4G3g%3D%3D

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fechter   100 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by fechter » Dec 10 2020 12:57am

Even without modding the BMS, I was able to trigger the cell over temp cutoff by pulling 120A for a while. For short bursts, the cells can handle quite a bit but they will overheat quickly if you push things too hard, especially in warm weather.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Amaxophobie » Dec 10 2020 3:09am

Has anyone measured the power output of the USB-plug from th Sur Ron? It says 5V 2,4A on it.
If so it would be enough to power an additional 10W LED on the handlebar without mounting the associated 1S3P batterybox.
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by mr.skywalker » Dec 10 2020 8:53am

fechter wrote:
Dec 10 2020 12:57am
Even without modding the BMS, I was able to trigger the cell over temp cutoff by pulling 120A for a while. For short bursts, the cells can handle quite a bit but they will overheat quickly if you push things too hard, especially in warm weather.
Yea I dont plan on pulling high amps for long, we sometimes have high speed transfer sections and every now and then I run into a hill climb that I need a short burst for maybe 10-30seconds max. Also it would only be for days I'm not running a battery bag that gives me an additional 60amps(6p battery bag with PF cells). My primary riding with this bike will be trails with alot of tech but just want the boost for those times the 450s start to go past half throttle lol

How are you pulling 120A without modding BMS though? I saw in this thread you could get to that for a few seconds before it would trigger safety cuttoff but you could do it long enough to overheat the cells?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by fechter » Dec 10 2020 11:07am

mr.skywalker wrote:
Dec 10 2020 8:53am
How are you pulling 120A without modding BMS though? I saw in this thread you could get to that for a few seconds before it would trigger safety cuttoff but you could do it long enough to overheat the cells?
I don't know. I just tried it and it worked. I'm not sure how much it can take before it will cut off for over current. My guess is the cutoff level isn't very precise and I just got lucky with mine. I could pull 120A for more than a few seconds going up a hill.
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by mr.skywalker » Dec 10 2020 11:20am

fechter wrote:
Dec 10 2020 11:07am
mr.skywalker wrote:
Dec 10 2020 8:53am
How are you pulling 120A without modding BMS though? I saw in this thread you could get to that for a few seconds before it would trigger safety cuttoff but you could do it long enough to overheat the cells?
I don't know. I just tried it and it worked. I'm not sure how much it can take before it will cut off for over current. My guess is the cutoff level isn't very precise and I just got lucky with mine. I could pull 120A for more than a few seconds going up a hill.
Gotcha maybe I'll experiment with the BAC and push it up a little at a time and see when I start hitting BMS cut out. Im also looking at just building a larger battery that can handle 160-200amps continuous as I found a source that could be 150-160A continuous and 52Ah capacity all for under $700 for cells, bms, and all other bits needed.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by fechter » Dec 10 2020 7:56pm

It would be good to get more data points on where the stock BMS trips. I suspect it's not super precise and may vary over a wide range from one unit to another.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by mr.skywalker » Dec 11 2020 8:58am

yea, Ill try pulling a 600 watts more at a time(thats how the BAC sets the power level from my understanding) and I should be able to back out the amps it trips at. as each increment should be about 10 extra amps. Not sure how accurate it will be but at least its a baseline. Would be great if I dont have to touch the BMS though but not a big deal if I need to.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by smdub » Dec 15 2020 3:23pm

Got the Nuc24F installed over the weekend. Oh wow, its a blast! :D Great throttle response!
I had trouble getting the larger 3x3 connector seated all the way. Brand A female vs Brand B male don't mate perfectly. TIGHT fit.

I trip the oem battery BMS at 120A but not at 110A. Those are the only two datapoints I've tried so far. I can see I will want a higher power battery soon. Its a wheelie machine at slower speeds but the battery current limit quickly hits its limit and starts reducing phase amps, limiting fun.

My main question is: The display & control come on WITHOUT the key. As soon as I flip the breaker on, the Nuc24 powers up and will run the bike. I have throttle as its powered off the 5V from the control. W/o the key though, there is no 12V so the brake input signals don't work. Does this happen to anyone else? I need to change some wiring so it will only power on w/ the key if possible (is there a disable line to the control so that it will stay asleep until the aux 12v is present or something.)

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by iliketurtles » Dec 15 2020 4:25pm

smdub wrote:
Dec 15 2020 3:23pm
Got the Nuc24F installed over the weekend. Oh wow, its a blast! :D Great throttle response!
I had trouble getting the larger 3x3 connector seated all the way. Brand A female vs Brand B male don't mate perfectly. TIGHT fit.

I trip the oem battery BMS at 120A but not at 110A. Those are the only two datapoints I've tried so far. I can see I will want a higher power battery soon. Its a wheelie machine at slower speeds but the battery current limit quickly hits its limit and starts reducing phase amps, limiting fun.

My main question is: The display & control come on WITHOUT the key. As soon as I flip the breaker on, the Nuc24 powers up and will run the bike. I have throttle as its powered off the 5V from the control. W/o the key though, there is no 12V so the brake input signals don't work. Does this happen to anyone else? I need to change some wiring so it will only power on w/ the key if possible (is there a disable line to the control so that it will stay asleep until the aux 12v is present or something.)
This is normal as the Nuc comes. You don't need to change any wiring - you need to change the 'Disable button' setting in 'Controller - Extra Parameters' to Switch (make sure to not set 'Button', otherwise you may not be able to re-enable the controller without some shenanigans). The key is already wired up to activate this, it's just the setting isn't set to allow it to work.

Make sure to keep an eye on the Nucular Telegram channel as this was discussed recently :)

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by SCM » Dec 16 2020 9:40am

smdub wrote:
Dec 15 2020 3:23pm
Got the Nuc24F installed over the weekend. Oh wow, its a blast! :D Great throttle response!
I had trouble getting the larger 3x3 connector seated all the way. Brand A female vs Brand B male don't mate perfectly. TIGHT fit.

I trip the oem battery BMS at 120A but not at 110A. Those are the only two datapoints I've tried so far. I can see I will want a higher power battery soon. Its a wheelie machine at slower speeds but the battery current limit quickly hits its limit and starts reducing phase amps, limiting fun.

My main question is: The display & control come on WITHOUT the key. As soon as I flip the breaker on, the Nuc24 powers up and will run the bike. I have throttle as its powered off the 5V from the control. W/o the key though, there is no 12V so the brake input signals don't work. Does this happen to anyone else? I need to change some wiring so it will only power on w/ the key if possible (is there a disable line to the control so that it will stay asleep until the aux 12v is present or something.)
Received my 24f controller as well and planning to install it during the coming weeks! :D

Anyone that took pictures during installation and how it looks on the bike once installed? Did you manage to hide the controller cables in a good way somehow?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by fechter » Dec 16 2020 3:15pm

smdub wrote:
Dec 15 2020 3:23pm
I trip the oem battery BMS at 120A but not at 110A.
Thanks for the test. Mine would hold at 120A but did not test higher.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by smdub » Dec 16 2020 8:39pm

iliketurtles wrote:
Dec 15 2020 4:25pm
This is normal as the Nuc comes. You don't need to change any wiring - you need to change the 'Disable button' setting in 'Controller - Extra Parameters' to Switch (make sure to not set 'Button', otherwise you may not be able to re-enable the controller without some shenanigans). The key is already wired up to activate this, it's just the setting isn't set to allow it to work.

Make sure to keep an eye on the Nucular Telegram channel as this was discussed recently :)
Thanks, this worked great! I didn't know there was a Telegram channel. I don't use that anymore but will try to set it up again.
fechter wrote:
Dec 16 2020 3:15pm
smdub wrote:
Dec 15 2020 3:23pm
I trip the oem battery BMS at 120A but not at 110A.
Thanks for the test. Mine would hold at 120A but did not test higher.
Mine originally appeared to hold at 120A. But when I did a 15+sec full throttle run up the street it tripped.

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Segway X160 vs X260

Post by smdub » Dec 17 2020 3:09pm

Is there a motor & controller different in the Segway X160 and X260? Anyone here have a X160?

I've been looking for a bike for the kid and I might have a line for a local X160 thats for sale. I know the 48V vs 60V battery and suspension/wheel differences. Some marketing info says the X160 has less power. Is the motor different or is the controller just different or software limited? As the kid grows, it would be nice to be able to put my SurRon takeoff parts on the X160 and raise it up. But I'd prefer not to also have to replace the motor and controller (bigger kids want bigger power :D ) If I have to change that much stuff it would make more sense to go back to my original plan of just lowering a SurRon to start.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Hawaiiguy » Dec 17 2020 10:54pm

Those that have put the 60v battery on their X160 have said it I increases distance but not speed.Pretty sure it uses the same motor ,so has to be the controller.I have a Xcontroller for 60v from my Surron I’m not using.I installed a Bac8000 and won’t be going back.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by mr.skywalker » Dec 18 2020 11:46am

Yea the controller is also limiting the x160 was my understanding, not just the battery. Alot of people seem to buying the x160 bc its cheaper but end up spending way more than the surron initially costs. The worst part is at least on the surron if you upgrade the battery some people buy it so they can swap as a spare (thats what Ive done) and the x controller sells to people who have the original surron, the x160 parts pretty much have no value except maybe the battery for another 160 owner.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by smdub » Dec 18 2020 1:41pm

I've figured out more about the X160. Will dump here in case it helps someone else out:

1) The X160 battery really isn't 48V nominal. Its really 52.5V nominal (using the same 3.75V/cell nominal the X260 is calculated with.) Its 14S (vs 16S SurRon/X260). So a X260 battery would yield 16S/14S=1.14x speed increase.
2) X160 charger is 58.8V 5A (58.8V/4.2Vpc=14S). X260 charger is 67.2V 10A. (67.2V/4.2Vpc=16S)
3) The X160 battery has a 2-pin charge connector. The SurRon/X260 has 3 pin. (the bike I was looking at was advertised w/ a X260 battery but it is just a X160 battery w/ an X260 sticker swapped onto it. Buyer beware! One could weigh the battery too. The SurRon/X260 batt will be a lot heavier.)
4) The X160 has a 58T rear sprocket. This is nowhere in the literature I could find but the pictures all show it as clearly larger. The bike I was looking at, has a huge 58T labeled sprocket. This makes sense as the X160 is advertised w/ a 112 link chain (vs 48T & 106 link SurRon/X260.) Swapping this back to 48T would speed the bike up 58/48=1.21x
5) 17" wheels have smaller circumference. Since the SurRon 19" wheel tire diameter is about 24.25", the speed up if you went to the larger wheels would be approximately 24.25"/22.25" (the 2pi in the circumference cancel)=1.09x
6) The X160 controller must have a MUCH lower current output limit. Even with the large rear sprocket the X160 is advertised w/ less rear wheel torque.

1.09(tire)*1.14(battery)*1.21(sprocket)=1.50
1.50*31.1mph(X160 advertised top speed)=46.7mph (REALLY close to the X260 advertised 46.6mph top speed.) The combination of those 3 things slow the X160 down.

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fechter   100 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by fechter » Dec 18 2020 6:53pm

Thanks for posting the info.

I wonder if the motor is the same? Most motors can handle quite a bit more than the stock power level.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by sc-surfer » Dec 18 2020 7:04pm

Hi all,

I'm just starting to plow through the 200+ pages of this thread and will no doubt learn a metric $hit ton of great stuff! In the meantime, can anyone shed any light on this post from way back?

I'd love to increase battery output but still retain the BMS functions. This post seems to refer to some way to increase output while maintaining function.

I may learn this eventually but I've got a few hundred posts to go and any help would be great!

liveforphysics wrote:
May 01 2018 4:44pm
Stock BMS has 16 x 5mOhm surface mount resistors composing the shunt (0.31mOhm combined). We just doubled up each resistor and it's enough to get everything the OEM pack can deliver to a hotrod controller, and still has functional over voltage, under voltage, and over-temp protection. Soldering work looks awful because it's an aluminum PCB and our iron's weren't high enough power.

Image

Image

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by fechter » Dec 19 2020 12:48am

You solder chip resistors over the top of the existing ones on the lower BMS board. I haven't done it, but here's a picture:
SurRon BMS1.JPG
SurRon BMS1.JPG (112.01 KiB) Viewed 246 times
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