Motor sputter at higher RPMs...

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bchampig   1 W

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Re: Motor sputter at higher RPMs...

Post by bchampig » Sep 27 2017 5:41am

gman1971 wrote:Thanks for the info, I will be probably next to get one of those, they seem priced right for an step up to the OEM square taper controller.

G.
I can't really form an opinion on the controller until I get this issue sorted out. What I can say is that it is fairly programmable via the bluetooth app. I run it on the iphone and it works Ok...a little flakey in that it doesn't always connect to the controller. A power cycle of the controller usually resolves that issue. Not a big deal.

The controller PCB looks Ok, although the PCB doesn't fit quite right in the card guides on the aluminum case bringing the bottom side of the board very close to the case. I covered the bottom of the PCB with Kapton tape to eliminate the possibility of it shorting to the case.

I did replace the phase and battery wires with 10AWG silicon wire, and also used sealed circular connectors for the CA3 and hall effect connections. I removed all of the connections that I didn't care about...reverse, speed select, ebrakes, etc. I then CNC'd new endcaps and a mounting bracket.

As for my motor sputter issue, it's very frustrating. Mike from LR uses the same controller and motor setup and hasn't reported any issues, even at higher voltage than I'm running. That leads me to believe that I may have a marginal hall effect sensor, but I'm not certain. My time to troubleshoot is limited since I have a 3 year old :)

regards,
Brian

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gman1971   10 kW

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Re: Motor sputter at higher RPMs...

Post by gman1971 » Sep 27 2017 10:36am

Any comparison vs the savboton controller?
I am all about high-speed, low-drag, mid-drives and gears...
A-1B trike, 6+kW, 65+mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
A-2A trike 3kW, 50mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNoqp0wl6Vo
eB-1C bike 3kW, 42mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig

bchampig   1 W

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Re: Motor sputter at higher RPMs...

Post by bchampig » Sep 27 2017 11:36am

gman1971 wrote:Any comparison vs the savboton controller?
Not sure as I have never tried a Sabvoton. I considered it but it was physically too large and heavy for my build.

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gman1971   10 kW

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Re: Motor sputter at higher RPMs...

Post by gman1971 » Sep 27 2017 11:48am

Some ppl have used the sabvoton with the Cyclone motor without issues... so I wonder if its the way the sinewave tables on the powervelocity controler are calculated? the windings of the Cyclone motor might not lend themselves to use with fixed sinewave controller (or not true vector control FOC)

G.
I am all about high-speed, low-drag, mid-drives and gears...
A-1B trike, 6+kW, 65+mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
A-2A trike 3kW, 50mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNoqp0wl6Vo
eB-1C bike 3kW, 42mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig

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gman1971   10 kW

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Re: Motor sputter at higher RPMs...

Post by gman1971 » Sep 27 2017 12:18pm

Just read some interesting info about these PV controllers, and they are NOT true FOC controllers, they don't use vector control, so they rely on the halls to do RPMs with lookup tables rather than a true FOC controller that only uses the halls for startup then it uses the phase wires to detect rotor position and apply current accordingly. So these PV seems more like an inexpensive controller that has been modified with some bells and whistles but still no true vector control, which is where you'll get the efficiency improvement, around 5-7% according to tests done by the guy who owns E-S... so I think I will probably go with the Sabvoton after knowing this, as those are true FOC sinewave controllers and have an auto-detection for the halls too...

Oh well, there is no such a thing as free lunch in eBikes...

G.
I am all about high-speed, low-drag, mid-drives and gears...
A-1B trike, 6+kW, 65+mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
A-2A trike 3kW, 50mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNoqp0wl6Vo
eB-1C bike 3kW, 42mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig

bchampig   1 W

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Re: Motor sputter at higher RPMs...

Post by bchampig » Sep 27 2017 1:04pm

gman1971 wrote:Just read some interesting info about these PV controllers, and they are NOT true FOC controllers, they don't use vector control, so they rely on the halls to do RPMs with lookup tables rather than a true FOC controller that only uses the halls for startup then it uses the phase wires to detect rotor position and apply current accordingly. So these PV seems more like an inexpensive controller that has been modified with some bells and whistles but still no true vector control, which is where you'll get the efficiency improvement, around 5-7% according to tests done by the guy who owns E-S... so I think I will probably go with the Sabvoton after knowing this, as those are true FOC sinewave controllers and have an auto-detection for the halls too...

Oh well, there is no such a thing as free lunch in eBikes...

G.
I wish I knew of a true FOC controller that is known to work well with mid drives in sensor mode. I don't know of anyone using the Phaserunner or Sabvoton successfully on mid drives...especially full suspension mid drives, due to the torque throttle control loops not being fast enough to handle the resonance issues due to chain growth and drive train slop. At this point, it seems my only controller options are the cheap Infineon knockoffs(trapezoidal or psuedo-sine) or stock cyclone controllers with speed throttles.

Brian

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gman1971   10 kW

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Re: Motor sputter at higher RPMs...

Post by gman1971 » Sep 27 2017 1:14pm

bchampig wrote:
gman1971 wrote:Just read some interesting info about these PV controllers, and they are NOT true FOC controllers, they don't use vector control, so they rely on the halls to do RPMs with lookup tables rather than a true FOC controller that only uses the halls for startup then it uses the phase wires to detect rotor position and apply current accordingly. So these PV seems more like an inexpensive controller that has been modified with some bells and whistles but still no true vector control, which is where you'll get the efficiency improvement, around 5-7% according to tests done by the guy who owns E-S... so I think I will probably go with the Sabvoton after knowing this, as those are true FOC sinewave controllers and have an auto-detection for the halls too...

Oh well, there is no such a thing as free lunch in eBikes...

G.
I wish I knew of a true FOC controller that is known to work well with mid drives in sensor mode. I don't know of anyone using the Phaserunner or Sabvoton successfully on mid drives...especially full suspension mid drives, due to the torque throttle control loops not being fast enough to handle the resonance issues due to chain growth and drive train slop. At this point, it seems my only controller options are the cheap Infineon knockoffs(trapezoidal or psuedo-sine) or stock cyclone controllers with speed throttles.

Brian
Well, a true FOC shouldn't use the hall sensors for anything but starting the motor, then it uses the phase wires to measure rotor position; that is how the super high end sensorless RC controllers work... the hall sensors aren't needed.

A member here called evolutiongts got the sabvoton to work well on his Cyclone middrive without any issues.

G.
I am all about high-speed, low-drag, mid-drives and gears...
A-1B trike, 6+kW, 65+mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
A-2A trike 3kW, 50mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNoqp0wl6Vo
eB-1C bike 3kW, 42mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig

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gman1971   10 kW

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Re: Motor sputter at higher RPMs...

Post by gman1971 » Sep 27 2017 1:20pm

Well, not sure what your motives are for using an FOC controller, but AFAIK, FOC seems to give you the best efficiency boost at the low-mid RPM range (which would be great for hubs where throttle controls the speed), but once you go into higher RPM operation, like for mid-drives, the closer you're are to your max voltage RPM, the efficiency difference seems to decrease. So, while the FOC still edges the square taper at high RPM, the difference might not be worth the trouble...

Justin did some efficiency measurements, worth a read...
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 66#p981766

Cheers.

G.
I am all about high-speed, low-drag, mid-drives and gears...
A-1B trike, 6+kW, 65+mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
A-2A trike 3kW, 50mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNoqp0wl6Vo
eB-1C bike 3kW, 42mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig

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Re: Motor sputter at higher RPMs...

Post by bchampig » Sep 28 2017 5:21am

I had a few minutes last night so I put the bike on the stand and ran it full throttle with the wheel off the ground. I didn't notice any sputter at max RPM. I think this rules out an eRPM issue with the controller. The sputter only happens when the bike is loaded. I even applied rear brake at full throttle but it wasn't enough of a load to make it sputter.

I did order new hall effect sensors yesterday from mouser(SS41) and will install them but I think I'm grasping at straws.

One thing I thought of is the flux weakening setting in the controller. I have turned the setting down to zero and it didn't make a difference, but maybe the setting in the app doesn't even work properly and it's always enabled. I also have my speed setting in the bluetooth app set to max(130). Maybe I should turn that down? The downside of all of this programmability is that it gives you just enough rope to hang yourself.

THX,
Brian

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fechter   100 GW

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Re: Motor sputter at higher RPMs...

Post by fechter » Sep 28 2017 10:21am

I think if you set the speed limit to 100%, it will disable the flux weakening. That's certainly worth a try.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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Re: Motor sputter at higher RPMs...

Post by gman1971 » Sep 28 2017 10:28am

bchampig wrote:I had a few minutes last night so I put the bike on the stand and ran it full throttle with the wheel off the ground. I didn't notice any sputter at max RPM. I think this rules out an eRPM issue with the controller. The sputter only happens when the bike is loaded. I even applied rear brake at full throttle but it wasn't enough of a load to make it sputter.

I did order new hall effect sensors yesterday from mouser(SS41) and will install them but I think I'm grasping at straws.

One thing I thought of is the flux weakening setting in the controller. I have turned the setting down to zero and it didn't make a difference, but maybe the setting in the app doesn't even work properly and it's always enabled. I also have my speed setting in the bluetooth app set to max(130). Maybe I should turn that down? The downside of all of this programmability is that it gives you just enough rope to hang yourself.

THX,
Brian
Not surprising, field weakening shouldn't work on a non true FOC controller, that is why I am a bit upset with these misleading options on the app. field weakening means the controller is FOC, and these controllers are not sensorless vector control FOC... the ASI Grin 12FET looks promising, but it still in a development stage, install at your own peril kind of thing...

G.
I am all about high-speed, low-drag, mid-drives and gears...
A-1B trike, 6+kW, 65+mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
A-2A trike 3kW, 50mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNoqp0wl6Vo
eB-1C bike 3kW, 42mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig

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Re: Motor sputter at higher RPMs...

Post by minimum » Sep 28 2017 12:54pm

gman1971 wrote:Not surprising, field weakening shouldn't work on a non true FOC controller, that is why I am a bit upset with these misleading options on the app. field weakening means the controller is FOC, and these controllers are not sensorless vector control FOC... the ASI Grin 12FET looks promising, but it still in a development stage, install at your own peril kind of thing...

G.
I do not have such solid source of intel whether PV controller is true FOC or not but from my own experience, based on many tests and empirical evidence I can state that even when speed setting is at max, enabling field weakening will raise considerably rpm and speed.

Few km short of 500 within ~1,5 months.

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fechter   100 GW

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Re: Motor sputter at higher RPMs...

Post by fechter » Sep 28 2017 1:09pm

As far as I can tell the PowerVelocity controllers are not true FOC. This does not mean they can't do field weakening. They do it by advancing the timing, which seems to work quite well. It's like simulated FOC.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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Re: Motor sputter at higher RPMs...

Post by bchampig » Sep 28 2017 2:03pm

fechter wrote:As far as I can tell the PowerVelocity controllers are not true FOC. This does not mean they can't do field weakening. They do it by advancing the timing, which seems to work quite well. It's like simulated FOC.
I will try to disable the field weakening setting and also turn the speed setting to 100 instead of 130. Maybe they both advance the timing too much.

THX,
brian

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gman1971   10 kW

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Re: Motor sputter at higher RPMs...

Post by gman1971 » Sep 28 2017 3:29pm

minimum wrote:
gman1971 wrote:Not surprising, field weakening shouldn't work on a non true FOC controller, that is why I am a bit upset with these misleading options on the app. field weakening means the controller is FOC, and these controllers are not sensorless vector control FOC... the ASI Grin 12FET looks promising, but it still in a development stage, install at your own peril kind of thing...

G.
I do not have such solid source of intel whether PV controller is true FOC or not but from my own experience, based on many tests and empirical evidence I can state that even when speed setting is at max, enabling field weakening will raise considerably rpm and speed.

Few km short of 500 within ~1,5 months.
Correct, but is not field weakening since it has no way of knowing where the rotor really is at high speed operation. So it has to be some timing trick or something else.

Also, remember that you can also make the cyclone controller go higher RPM by toggling a switch, now, how it achieves that is definitively not FOC field weakening. So who knows exactly how its done, timing tricks etc... all those sacrifice efficiency even more than FOC would since the exact rotor feedback isn't factored in the control loop...

I am looking to harness the FOC efficiency, but not the field weakening, which costs efficiency. I am trying to shave every bit of Wh/mile I can get and I am at a point in which my Cyclone controller is in the chopping block...

G.
I am all about high-speed, low-drag, mid-drives and gears...
A-1B trike, 6+kW, 65+mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
A-2A trike 3kW, 50mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNoqp0wl6Vo
eB-1C bike 3kW, 42mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig

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Re: Motor sputter at higher RPMs...

Post by bchampig » Sep 28 2017 5:36pm

I disabled field weakening setting and set speed to 100 instead of 130. It made no difference...still sputters under load and heavy throttle.

Will test halls next and most likely replace since I already ordered some honeywell parts.

Brian

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Re: Motor sputter at higher RPMs...

Post by gman1971 » Sep 29 2017 1:11am

bchampig wrote:I disabled field weakening setting and set speed to 100 instead of 130. It made no difference...still sputters under load and heavy throttle.

Will test halls next and most likely replace since I already ordered some honeywell parts.

Brian
Hey Brian,

Is there any timing options in the bluetooth app? Maybe retarding the timing could help? I am eagerly awaiting your hall transplant result.

G.
I am all about high-speed, low-drag, mid-drives and gears...
A-1B trike, 6+kW, 65+mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
A-2A trike 3kW, 50mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNoqp0wl6Vo
eB-1C bike 3kW, 42mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig

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Re: Motor sputter at higher RPMs...

Post by bchampig » Sep 29 2017 5:03am

No, there aren't any settings that are timing related...just speed and power limits. I popped the motor cover last night and verified that the stock hall sensors are switching...they all switch between a few millivolts and 4.3V. The pullup resistor is around 2.7K. I don't want to pull it stronger than that. I also made a direct throttle cable to get the CA3 out of the picture. Will test soon.

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Re: Motor sputter at higher RPMs...

Post by bchampig » Sep 29 2017 7:52am

Ok, so I tried bypassing the CA3 and ran throttle direct to the powervelocity controller. The problem is still there. At this point, I'm close to tossing this controller in the trash. I'm debating whether to replace the hall sensors in the small block with genuine honeywells that are on order, or just replace the controller with a stock cyclone 40 amp controller. I still want to use the CA3 so I would have to mod the cyclone controller to have a CA interface.

Any other controller recommendations? I don't care about trapezoid vs sine...just something reliable. I don't even care about the cost...my time is more valuable.

regards,
Brian

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Re: Motor sputter at higher RPMs...

Post by izeman » Sep 29 2017 10:04am

Lebowski if you know how to solder.

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gman1971   10 kW

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Re: Motor sputter at higher RPMs...

Post by gman1971 » Sep 29 2017 10:27am

bchampig wrote:Ok, so I tried bypassing the CA3 and ran throttle direct to the powervelocity controller. The problem is still there. At this point, I'm close to tossing this controller in the trash. I'm debating whether to replace the hall sensors in the small block with genuine honeywells that are on order, or just replace the controller with a stock cyclone 40 amp controller. I still want to use the CA3 so I would have to mod the cyclone controller to have a CA interface.

Any other controller recommendations? I don't care about trapezoid vs sine...just something reliable. I don't even care about the cost...my time is more valuable.

regards,
Brian
Hey Brian,
You can get the Cyclone 60A Bluetooth controller, those are also programmable... Cyclone also has a big Bluetooth controller that can do 18kW, maybe you should try that?

Based on the data I've found, for a mid-drive you would only see a major benefits if you were running partial throttle under load all the time. If you are going always full throttle, and using the gears, the trapezoid seems to be marginally less efficient.

G.
I am all about high-speed, low-drag, mid-drives and gears...
A-1B trike, 6+kW, 65+mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
A-2A trike 3kW, 50mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNoqp0wl6Vo
eB-1C bike 3kW, 42mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig

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Lebowski   1 GW

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Re: Motor sputter at higher RPMs...

Post by Lebowski » Oct 02 2017 2:49pm

izeman wrote:Lebowski if you know how to solder.
Or ask Animalector to solder one for you...

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Re: Motor sputter at higher RPMs...

Post by teklektik » Oct 02 2017 3:05pm

bchampig wrote:I still want to use the CA3 so I would have to mod the cyclone controller to have a CA interface.
Not really.
See "Appendix D. Adding a CA-DP Connector to a Generic Controller" of the Unofficial Guide.

By using an external shunt you can get a standard CA-DP JST connector and complete CA3 functionality without opening the controller. The basic molded shunt is good for 50A continuous/100A peak which is within your 40A projected max.
Visit Grin Technologies at www.ebikes.ca
Build Thread: 2WD Yuba Mundo V4

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Re: Motor sputter at higher RPMs...

Post by bchampig » Oct 02 2017 3:30pm

Lebowski wrote:
izeman wrote:Lebowski if you know how to solder.
Or ask Animalector to solder one for you...
I'm comfortable soldering and aquiring components. Is there a PCB available for sale. Also, is the firmware image available or would I have to purchase a programmed flash or CPU?

I'm curious about this controller.

Regards,
Brian

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Re: Motor sputter at higher RPMs...

Post by Lebowski » Oct 03 2017 1:05am

There is this thread about how to build a Lebowski controller:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 30&t=57877
You can buy the controller IC from me (not open source), Whereswally606 sells PCB's

There is also this thread for a miniature version:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 30&t=65297
Izeman has one of these, uses it with a MAC middrive (you can ask him for his experiences)

The Lebowski controller is 4 quadrant sinewave FOC (forward and reverse, power and regen), has dual throttle
input (either analog or CAN bus), torque control, can do fieldweakening, has battery HVC and LVC, temperature
sensing, can start sensored (under load) or sensorless (no load), can do hall position detection, can measure
motor L and R, can do over 100k-erpm...

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