My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

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tsellers   100 W

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by tsellers » Sep 21 2020 12:54pm

Amps is current. How many amps is your display showing when your motor is under load?
Regards, John

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by Limbs » Sep 21 2020 1:30pm

Trudgeboy wrote:
Sep 20 2020 7:47pm
I just got a Frey AM1000. Nice bike, but barely climbs hills that my partner easily passes me on using her Radcity Stepthrough....my Frey just crawls, feels like there’s no battery at all.
Full charge and starting with a semi-cool motor, I’m weighing in at 180 lbs. Am climbing 800 ft in the course of 2 miles....about 4.10 degrees avg.
Does the bike flatten the battery at all?

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by Trudgeboy » Sep 21 2020 1:44pm

I don’t understand how to read the display showing amps. Flatten the battery? If that means am I using/depleting power from the battery, the answer is yes.

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by Trudgeboy » Sep 21 2020 2:02pm

John, I see where the amps are indicated. I will take the hill ride soon and see what the amp indicator shows. Thanks for your efforts to help.

BTW shouldn’t the battery page in the display indicate data?
I find I can only scroll through the 4 pages, but not scroll down within any individual page.

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by Limbs » Sep 21 2020 2:05pm

Trudgeboy wrote:
Sep 21 2020 1:44pm
I don’t understand how to read the display showing amps. Flatten the battery? If that means am I using/depleting power from the battery, the answer is yes.
Yes, that's what I meant. You said that it felt like the motor wasn't adding any assistance, so I thought I'd ask. Does it use as much power from the battery as your partners bike does? You could assess this roughly by comparing the time taken to recharge each bike whilst taking the power output of each charger into account.

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by Trudgeboy » Sep 21 2020 2:07pm

I would say it’s roughly the same draw. Hers is capable of regenerative braking, and we come down the same hill I described going up.

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tsellers   100 W

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by tsellers » Sep 21 2020 2:36pm

I will take the hill ride soon and see what the amp indicator shows. Thanks for your efforts to help.

BTW shouldn’t the battery page in the display indicate data?
When you go to the doctor, he cannot start to diagnose a patient with taking blood pressure and heart rate, getting your amps reading is similar to making a diagnosis. I wouldn't bother timing the charge period unless your charger is capable of giving you readings, but I would read the positive and neg battery contacts after your battery has been charged with a multimeter, and you should see something around 54V (for a 48V battery). When you are going uphill, if your volts are much below 46 you will not get much assist no matter what the PAS level. The reason we want to look at the amp draw is to at least determine if the motor is pulling full power under load. When you go up a hill in PAS 5 and pedal hard, either on ECO or Sport, and the battery is fully charged, you should see it hit the 30A mark on your display. But even on a flat you should see it pull perhaps 10A if you are pedaling in a high gear. If not, then you know the battery is not supplying sufficient current. Things that could cause this:
  • Gear (shift) sensor
  • brake sensor
  • loose connectors
  • bad battery connection
  • faulty battery (BMS?)
  • hopefully not: bad controller
For example:
  • My FREY M600 often will not power up until I wiggle and push the connectors up into the display, and it has done this ever since it was brand new.
  • When I hit bumps on single track on my spouse's CC, sometimes I notice a power cut, which I suspect is being caused by either the shift or brake sensors causing the magnets to separate too far.
FWIW: The battery page on our CC also does not display battery data (at least when stationary after just turning power on) and it also has the stock Bafang battery on it.
Regards, John

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LeftieBiker   10 kW

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by LeftieBiker » Sep 21 2020 2:51pm

Gear (shift) sensor

brake sensor

loose connectors

bad battery connection

faulty battery (BMS?)

hopefully not: bad controller
I'd put "bad or weak cell in battery" in the #1 spot here.

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tsellers   100 W

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by tsellers » Sep 21 2020 2:59pm

I'd put "bad or weak cell in battery" in the #1 spot here.
Yes, possibly. That's where the readings on SoC and current will assist in drilling down to the possible root of the problem, and they are easy metrics to obtain withal..
Regards, John

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by Trudgeboy » Sep 21 2020 3:32pm

Great (pretty good anyway) news! Just went for another test ride, bearing in mind what you fellows had told me about the amp output. As I started up the hill in question, and watching my amp output meter, it went to zero and I was on throttle and pedal power alone, with no PAS. I came to a stop, and restarted using throttle then let off the throttle... the PAS kicked back in, and I made it up the hill much easier than I had done yesterday or the day before. This is the bike I had hoped to buy! I went back up the hill again and then around the block and up another steep incline 2 1/2 miles long, the PAS worked the entire time I was able to maintain speed. Now it’s just an issue of figuring out why it malfunctioned in the first place, and that’s clearly what it had been doing yesterday. Today’s ride was 10 miles long, with an attitude gain of around 1400 feet, and I used 45% of battery.
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tsellers   100 W

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by tsellers » Sep 21 2020 3:57pm

That sounds good. So just to be sure, what was the maximum amp draw that you saw, did it hit 30 amps at any point?

And what volts (you can change to volts in the settings) are you seeing?
Regards, John

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by Trudgeboy » Sep 21 2020 4:03pm

Hit 30 many times. How do I change to volts?

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tsellers   100 W

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by tsellers » Sep 21 2020 4:17pm

In you menu, you change the battery status from showing a percentage (which is an average), to volts, which is a much more precise and meaningful real-time metric once you've been using it for awhile and learn what to expect. Most experienced eBike riders will use volts.
Regards, John

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by Daxxie » Sep 21 2020 4:29pm

John-H wrote:
Sep 20 2020 5:15pm
I am in the process of finding a frame for Bafang Ultra M620.
That's not an M620 frame.
The mounting holes for the drive are not the same.
They should look like this:

Image

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by Trudgeboy » Sep 21 2020 6:03pm

John,
For whatever reason, I’m not able to effect anything in battery mode besides getting an overview of the 4 pages. The highlighted area will not initiate anything besides changing the page.

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tsellers   100 W

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by tsellers » Sep 21 2020 6:23pm

In your display settings, you see 'SOC View'. SoC= 'State of Charge'. Change it to that and you will always see the voltage of your battery in real time. You'll note that when you are pulling 30 amps and your battery is getting low, you can even drop below 40v, but it will recover when you lighten up. (For example, remember, when you want 1500 watts of power you'll need 50v to push 30 amps worth of charged electrons. But if you want that same 1500 watts when your battery is only at 44v, it's going to need 34 amps of current to get the same amount of power you had at 50v previously, and the higher the current, the more heat is generated, and the more amps are pulled from your total reserve of amp hours).

As for those 4 pages you mention, I noticed on our CC (also uses the M620 motor), all the values are also blank. Will have to play with that some more, or perhaps someone else can shed some light on that for us.
Regards, John

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by John-H » Sep 22 2020 5:32pm

FlyingFinn wrote:
Sep 20 2020 5:26pm
John-H wrote:
Sep 20 2020 5:15pm
Hello everyone. I am first time poster but long time lurker here on the endless sphere.

I didn't want to raise some old thread to ask my question, so I am asking here.

I am in the process of finding a frame for Bafang Ultra M620.

I have found this one for relatively low price:

Image

It looks similar to Frey EX. What do you think about this geometry? Is it already outdated?
To my understanding the battery compartments are made by the battery manufacturer. The frame is designed around the battery compartment and not vice versa.

This is the reason why many bikes can have similar looking compartments.

About the frame itself the rear linkage looks flimzy. I wouldn’t ride hard mtb with it.
I got few more photos from the seller.

Image
Image

The welds and the paint job look good (not the colour).
tsellers wrote:
Sep 20 2020 10:49pm
It looks similar to Frey EX. What do you think about this geometry? Is it already outdated?
I'm no expert, but that frame looks to me like a copy of a basic split pivot design (for example, Trek bikes*). It appears to me that there is a concentric pivot around the rear axle which connects the chainstay and seatstay. Split pivot are said to do well for bump compliance like the single pivot, but split pivot is better at downhill braking. Most reports indicate that the compromise was in the pedaling efficiency. I'd imagine you prioritize what you want from your bike, and then choose a frame with the pivot design that matches what is important to you.

* Back in 2012 Trek had to deal with a lawsuit that claimed they stole the Weagle design. Both are very similar designs. Trek's patent prevailed. But for other manufacturer's that wanted to use this design, the cost of licensing the patent would make for an expensive bike. So, if this Chinese frame is a reasonable copy of either of those patents, it's another example of how in the modern world, your patent may not be of much benefit to you in the long run, because as you pointed out, this Chinese frame appears to be inexpensive yet may use what was originally a design made expensive due to the patent.
I was thinking more if the frame is in line with the new trends in head and seat tube angles, chainstay and top tube length, etc. My impression is that these things are fashion as much as they are function.
JohnnyEppelseed wrote:
Sep 21 2020 2:59am
John-H wrote:
Sep 20 2020 5:15pm
Hello everyone. I am first time poster but long time lurker here on the endless sphere.

I didn't want to raise some old thread to ask my question, so I am asking here.

I am in the process of finding a frame for Bafang Ultra M620.

I have found this one for relatively low price:

Image

It looks similar to Frey EX. What do you think about this geometry? Is it already outdated?
What is the price? Do you have a table of the geometry?
Around 1100€ for the frame, battery (48V, 14.5Ah) and motor kit (includes a display, throttle, cables, chainring and crank arms).

I have requested geometry table but still haven't received it.
Daxxie wrote:
Sep 21 2020 4:29pm
John-H wrote:
Sep 20 2020 5:15pm
I am in the process of finding a frame for Bafang Ultra M620.
That's not an M620 frame.
The mounting holes for the drive are not the same.
They should look like this:

Image
Good eye. The frame on the photos I have provided is for Bafang M600, but the seller says they make the same one for the M620.

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by NoFanBoiz » Sep 22 2020 7:56pm

John-H wrote:
Sep 22 2020 5:32pm

Around 1100€ for the frame, battery (48V, 14.5Ah) and motor kit (includes a display, throttle, cables, chainring and crank arms).


Good eye. The frame on the photos I have provided is for Bafang M600, but the seller says they make the same one for the M620.
Let us know what it's like when you buy one, or at least provide more details of seller.

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by JohnnyEppelseed » Sep 23 2020 8:38am

NoFanBoiz wrote:
Sep 22 2020 7:56pm
John-H wrote:
Sep 22 2020 5:32pm

Around 1100€ for the frame, battery (48V, 14.5Ah) and motor kit (includes a display, throttle, cables, chainring and crank arms).


Good eye. The frame on the photos I have provided is for Bafang M600, but the seller says they make the same one for the M620.
Let us know what it's like when you buy one, or at least provide more details of seller.
Here is the manufacturer's page http://www.salto-bike.com/eindex.asp. Prices and geometry can be found there. Does anyone have firsthand experience with this frame?

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by HerrDoktor » Sep 24 2020 1:50am

Whilst no experience of the frame, I have liaised with the manufacturers about buying one before deciding on the Frey

I spoke to a chap called Jeff @ wanglin061220@163.com and asked him a number of questions.

These are his answers


"Thanks for you e mail .
We are the OEM alloy frame factory in Shenzhen.
The frame price is USD348.00 FOB SHENZHEN . The frame price include the battery cage.
The frame is weight is 2.5KG for 27.5*17" frame.
The frame is weight is 2.7KG for 27.5*19" frame.
The frame price is without frame shock, You have to buy the shock and droper by youself. We only have frame.
The drop out is assebling together with frame .
We don't check the way of drop out before.
Yes the frame is design for Bangfang Mid drive M620 Motor.
We send the battery cage together with frame . If you can assembling the battery in UK.
Now only availabe for train shipment.
Freight cost for one frame cost USD$180 , but need about 4 week .
It include the custom duty already .
Anti dumping only for complete bike . For frame is OK .
Best regard

Jeff
"

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by NoFanBoiz » Sep 24 2020 2:38am

HerrDoktor wrote:
Sep 24 2020 1:50am
Whilst no experience of the frame, I have liaised with the manufacturers about buying one before deciding on the Frey

I spoke to a chap called Jeff @ wanglin061220@163.com and asked him a number of questions.

These are his answers


"Thanks for you e mail .
We are the OEM alloy frame factory in Shenzhen.
The frame price is USD348.00 FOB SHENZHEN . The frame price include the battery cage.
The frame is weight is 2.5KG for 27.5*17" frame.
The frame is weight is 2.7KG for 27.5*19" frame.
The frame price is without frame shock, You have to buy the shock and droper by youself. We only have frame.
The drop out is assebling together with frame .
We don't check the way of drop out before.
Yes the frame is design for Bangfang Mid drive M620 Motor.
We send the battery cage together with frame . If you can assembling the battery in UK.
Now only availabe for train shipment.
Freight cost for one frame cost USD$180 , but need about 4 week .
It include the custom duty already .
Anti dumping only for complete bike . For frame is OK .
Best regard

Jeff
"
Thanks, shame they don't supply complete bikes, they sure put Frey's shipment costs to shame.

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by JohnnyEppelseed » Sep 24 2020 7:13am

NoFanBoiz wrote:
Sep 24 2020 2:38am
HerrDoktor wrote:
Sep 24 2020 1:50am
Whilst no experience of the frame, I have liaised with the manufacturers about buying one before deciding on the Frey

I spoke to a chap called Jeff @ wanglin061220@163.com and asked him a number of questions.

These are his answers


"Thanks for you e mail .
We are the OEM alloy frame factory in Shenzhen.
The frame price is USD348.00 FOB SHENZHEN . The frame price include the battery cage.
The frame is weight is 2.5KG for 27.5*17" frame.
The frame is weight is 2.7KG for 27.5*19" frame.
The frame price is without frame shock, You have to buy the shock and droper by youself. We only have frame.
The drop out is assebling together with frame .
We don't check the way of drop out before.
Yes the frame is design for Bangfang Mid drive M620 Motor.
We send the battery cage together with frame . If you can assembling the battery in UK.
Now only availabe for train shipment.
Freight cost for one frame cost USD$180 , but need about 4 week .
It include the custom duty already .
Anti dumping only for complete bike . For frame is OK .
Best regard

Jeff
"
Thanks, shame they don't supply complete bikes, they sure put Frey's shipment costs to shame.
I think a big part of the Frey 'shipment cost' is import/customs fees based on the value of the product ($348 vs $3500+).

Limbs   10 mW

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by Limbs » Sep 24 2020 8:01am

JohnnyEppelseed wrote:
Sep 24 2020 7:13am

I think a big part of the Frey 'shipment cost' is import/customs fees based on the value of the product ($348 vs $3500+).
I would be very interested to know whether or not Frey's shipping charges do include import duties (UK/Europe specifically) but, all of the services that Frey seem to offer via Alibaba are DAP services, which do not include customs service/duty.

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by FlyingFinn » Sep 24 2020 9:12am

Limbs wrote:
Sep 24 2020 8:01am
JohnnyEppelseed wrote:
Sep 24 2020 7:13am

I think a big part of the Frey 'shipment cost' is import/customs fees based on the value of the product ($348 vs $3500+).
I would be very interested to know whether or not Frey's shipping charges do include import duties (UK/Europe specifically) but, all of the services that Frey seem to offer via Alibaba are DAP services, which do not include customs service/duty.
Yes it does. Shipping to Europe is/was $550. Air freight was the same price than train shipping. Air is alot faster 1-2 weeks from sending but you need to pay around $100 of charges upon receiving the bike. Train was 1-3 months but no extra charges.

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by JohnnyEppelseed » Sep 24 2020 9:49am

FlyingFinn wrote:
Sep 24 2020 9:12am
Limbs wrote:
Sep 24 2020 8:01am
JohnnyEppelseed wrote:
Sep 24 2020 7:13am

I think a big part of the Frey 'shipment cost' is import/customs fees based on the value of the product ($348 vs $3500+).
I would be very interested to know whether or not Frey's shipping charges do include import duties (UK/Europe specifically) but, all of the services that Frey seem to offer via Alibaba are DAP services, which do not include customs service/duty.
Yes it does. Shipping to Europe is/was $550. Air freight was the same price than train shipping. Air is alot faster 1-2 weeks from sending but you need to pay around $100 of charges upon receiving the bike. Train was 1-3 months but no extra charges.
An excerpt from my contract -

"DDP:You can receive the goods at the destination place, your supplier will do the import customs clearance at the destination port and also afford all the fees including import duty."

I expect no extra charges. I will let you know how it all plays out after I receive my bike.

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