My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.
Robleman
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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by Robleman » Dec 21, 2017 1:11 pm

Completly agree with scrambler suggestions about trottle.

Also support 52V battery.

Last, reducing weight around 4-5 kg would make it a winning option. Know its not easy.

Frey, I love so much my BBSHD but in my opinion you have done almost all my wishlist!

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by Drop Dead Fred » Dec 21, 2017 3:14 pm

scrambler wrote:
Dec 21, 2017 12:46 pm
robocam wrote:
Dec 21, 2017 2:03 am
Just a quick poll.
For the thumb throttle, do people want 100% power to be available regardless of the assist setting, as opposed to having it dependent on the assist level chosen (where full throttle in assist 1 would be lower in power than full throttle in assist 5)?
For me I don't see any reason to make the throttle dependent on the pedal assist, if you want to limit how fast the throttle goes, well, use the throttle at the level you need, this is what a throttle does :)

So my vote is throttle should always map to 100%

The only reason I would want the throttle limited is for different power modes (like street legal and off road) so you are not tempted to go over. This would mostly apply to high powered bike, but given the Ultra is above the street legal power of 350W in Europe and 750W in the US, I would like to see two power modes on the Ultra, for the US, I would want one to be limited at 750W and one unlimited.
robocam wrote:
Dec 21, 2017 2:03 am
Do you want the thumb throttle to be enabled in assist level 0?
I don't really understand this distinction because I don't really see the need for assist level zero. I am not getting an E-bike not to use the electric assist, so I have no use for assist level zero.
That said, I don't see any logic in disabling the throttle because the power assit would be off. If you don't want to use the throttle, then don't, no need to have it hardcoded. It is always better to have the choice.

So my vote is also to enable the throttle at pedal assist zero.

Now side question to robocam or others with the bike.
On most bikes using the Bafang (Max or Ultra) The throttle does not work from a dead stop, you have to be going a few miles per hour before it works. This is apparently because Bafang believes throttling from a dead stop may damage the motor.

Can you confirm if the throttle on the Frey works from a dead stop, or only for a few miles per hour, and if so how many.

Note: This mat be different with Ultra using the Metal reduction gear versus the original nylon one
I'm with Scrambler and Robocam, throttle 100% in all modes. Sometimes I actually ride in 0 just for some serious exercise :) but have gotten caught and was able to throttle up a small steep incline to catch myself.

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by FREYebikes » Dec 21, 2017 10:48 pm

hi, our bike frame width is 148mm with thru axle 148*12mm.
Do you have any recommend IGH to match our bike or we can test?
Thank you in advance for your reply.
Robleman wrote:
Dec 19, 2017 4:20 pm
Just to share my experience with IGH Alfine 8 combined with a bafang BBSHD: awesome!

It is working without problems for about 8 months. Chainline is good. 1,5KW peak power ok. Range is more than enough for single track riding.

Only issue to take care of is the cable regulation, its very sensible so if you don't set it well it makes noises as its going to break. But once its done ok it keeps the setting for long.

So I recommend the Alfine 8 for middrives to everyone.👍

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by FREYebikes » Dec 21, 2017 10:49 pm

If most of customers prefer full power throttle, then we can set it for you at beginning before our delivery.
Drop Dead Fred wrote:
Dec 21, 2017 3:14 pm
scrambler wrote:
Dec 21, 2017 12:46 pm
robocam wrote:
Dec 21, 2017 2:03 am
Just a quick poll.
For the thumb throttle, do people want 100% power to be available regardless of the assist setting, as opposed to having it dependent on the assist level chosen (where full throttle in assist 1 would be lower in power than full throttle in assist 5)?
For me I don't see any reason to make the throttle dependent on the pedal assist, if you want to limit how fast the throttle goes, well, use the throttle at the level you need, this is what a throttle does :)

So my vote is throttle should always map to 100%

The only reason I would want the throttle limited is for different power modes (like street legal and off road) so you are not tempted to go over. This would mostly apply to high powered bike, but given the Ultra is above the street legal power of 350W in Europe and 750W in the US, I would like to see two power modes on the Ultra, for the US, I would want one to be limited at 750W and one unlimited.
robocam wrote:
Dec 21, 2017 2:03 am
Do you want the thumb throttle to be enabled in assist level 0?
I don't really understand this distinction because I don't really see the need for assist level zero. I am not getting an E-bike not to use the electric assist, so I have no use for assist level zero.
That said, I don't see any logic in disabling the throttle because the power assit would be off. If you don't want to use the throttle, then don't, no need to have it hardcoded. It is always better to have the choice.

So my vote is also to enable the throttle at pedal assist zero.

Now side question to robocam or others with the bike.
On most bikes using the Bafang (Max or Ultra) The throttle does not work from a dead stop, you have to be going a few miles per hour before it works. This is apparently because Bafang believes throttling from a dead stop may damage the motor.

Can you confirm if the throttle on the Frey works from a dead stop, or only for a few miles per hour, and if so how many.

Note: This mat be different with Ultra using the Metal reduction gear versus the original nylon one
I'm with Scrambler and Robocam, throttle 100% in all modes. Sometimes I actually ride in 0 just for some serious exercise :) but have gotten caught and was able to throttle up a small steep incline to catch myself.

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by FREYebikes » Dec 21, 2017 10:56 pm

We will considerate to develop new model with Bafang M600, but that's depend on the market demands on what customers really want to get! if with M600 motor, what battery capacity would prefer to match! Now Bafang is in mode producing process for the motor, and the motor expect to release in April we think, the time schedule is just as Ultra motor release at beginning of this year!
gidooo wrote:
Dec 21, 2017 7:45 am
Im waiting for new 2018 Bafang motor M600
http://www.bafang-e.com/en/drive-system ... ystem.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZR0gFy1xIGQ

I dont need so much power and want lighter motor, shorter chainstay, narrow q factor....
Do Frey plan to make bikes with new Bafang motor?

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by FREYebikes » Dec 21, 2017 11:04 pm

scrambler wrote:
Dec 21, 2017 12:46 pm
robocam wrote:
Dec 21, 2017 2:03 am
Just a quick poll.
For the thumb throttle, do people want 100% power to be available regardless of the assist setting, as opposed to having it dependent on the assist level chosen (where full throttle in assist 1 would be lower in power than full throttle in assist 5)?
For me I don't see any reason to make the throttle dependent on the pedal assist, if you want to limit how fast the throttle goes, well, use the throttle at the level you need, this is what a throttle does :)

So my vote is throttle should always map to 100%

The only reason I would want the throttle limited is for different power modes (like street legal and off road) so you are not tempted to go over. This would mostly apply to high powered bike, but given the Ultra is above the street legal power of 350W in Europe and 750W in the US, I would like to see two power modes on the Ultra, for the US, I would want one to be limited at 750W and one unlimited.
robocam wrote:
Dec 21, 2017 2:03 am
Do you want the thumb throttle to be enabled in assist level 0?
I don't really understand this distinction because I don't really see the need for assist level zero. I am not getting an E-bike not to use the electric assist, so I have no use for assist level zero.
That said, I don't see any logic in disabling the throttle because the power assit would be off. If you don't want to use the throttle, then don't, no need to have it hardcoded. It is always better to have the choice.

So my vote is also to enable the throttle at pedal assist zero.

I try to answer your below question:
Bafang design the motor not 0 speed to start the throttle because of security and safety consideration under an unexpected sudden start. If want to make the throttle work, must set not 0, it can be a very little number. have you got my meaning?

Now side question to robocam or others with the bike.
On most bikes using the Bafang (Max or Ultra) The throttle does not work from a dead stop, you have to be going a few miles per hour before it works. This is apparently because Bafang believes throttling from a dead stop may damage the motor.

Can you confirm if the throttle on the Frey works from a dead stop, or only for a few miles per hour, and if so how many.

Note: This mat be different with Ultra using the Metal reduction gear versus the original nylon one

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by FREYebikes » Dec 21, 2017 11:04 pm

I try to answer your below question:
Bafang design the motor not 0 speed to start the throttle because of security and safety consideration under an unexpected sudden start. If want to make the throttle work, must set not 0, it can be a very little number. have you got my meaning?
FREYebikes wrote:
Dec 21, 2017 11:04 pm
scrambler wrote:
Dec 21, 2017 12:46 pm
robocam wrote:
Dec 21, 2017 2:03 am
Just a quick poll.
For the thumb throttle, do people want 100% power to be available regardless of the assist setting, as opposed to having it dependent on the assist level chosen (where full throttle in assist 1 would be lower in power than full throttle in assist 5)?
For me I don't see any reason to make the throttle dependent on the pedal assist, if you want to limit how fast the throttle goes, well, use the throttle at the level you need, this is what a throttle does :)

So my vote is throttle should always map to 100%

The only reason I would want the throttle limited is for different power modes (like street legal and off road) so you are not tempted to go over. This would mostly apply to high powered bike, but given the Ultra is above the street legal power of 350W in Europe and 750W in the US, I would like to see two power modes on the Ultra, for the US, I would want one to be limited at 750W and one unlimited.
robocam wrote:
Dec 21, 2017 2:03 am
Do you want the thumb throttle to be enabled in assist level 0?
I don't really understand this distinction because I don't really see the need for assist level zero. I am not getting an E-bike not to use the electric assist, so I have no use for assist level zero.
That said, I don't see any logic in disabling the throttle because the power assit would be off. If you don't want to use the throttle, then don't, no need to have it hardcoded. It is always better to have the choice.

So my vote is also to enable the throttle at pedal assist zero.

Now side question to robocam or others with the bike.
On most bikes using the Bafang (Max or Ultra) The throttle does not work from a dead stop, you have to be going a few miles per hour before it works. This is apparently because Bafang believes throttling from a dead stop may damage the motor.

Can you confirm if the throttle on the Frey works from a dead stop, or only for a few miles per hour, and if so how many.

Note: This mat be different with Ultra using the Metal reduction gear versus the original nylon one

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by FREYebikes » Dec 21, 2017 11:15 pm

Just have a quick look at your post, you done a really good job!
Can you share about your inner gear hub and battery pack info?
If the frame back is 148*12mm, is there some IGH can fit for or how it is possible to match? and what cell do you make the battery pack?
Thank you!
Ecyclist wrote:
Dec 20, 2017 10:09 pm
I have Rohloff Speedhub, 14 Speeds on my e-bike and I can tell you that it is worth every penny I paid for it.
You can change gears from 1st to 14th in a second. After a couple of months of riding it became very smooth.

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by robocam » Dec 21, 2017 11:35 pm

Basically, you can change both values under assist 0 to 1 to enable the throttle in assist 0.

I don't understand the safety issue though. The bike turns on in assist 1. If I don't want it to move, I can turn it off.
FREYebikes wrote:
Dec 21, 2017 11:04 pm
...Bafang design the motor not 0 speed to start the throttle because of security and safety consideration under an unexpected sudden start. If want to make the throttle work, must set not 0, it can be a very little number. have you got my meaning?
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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by robocam » Dec 21, 2017 11:47 pm

Dropping that much weight would make it lighter than a carbon fiber Specialized Levo, but we can dream =) The Luna Cycle Apex weighs 65-75 lbs, which is about the same as the Frey at 67.4 lbs, and it's made out of carbon fiber. I'm very glad the Frey is made out of aluminum because I just don't trust carbon fiber. My friend has a Yeti SB6c, and the seat tube developed a crack. He doesn't even ride hard.
Robleman wrote:
Dec 21, 2017 1:11 pm
...reducing weight around 4-5 kg would make it a winning option. Know its not easy...
Last edited by robocam on Dec 22, 2017 1:10 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by Drop Dead Fred » Dec 22, 2017 12:55 am

robocam wrote:
Dec 21, 2017 11:35 pm
Basically, you can change both values under assist 0 to 1 to enable the throttle in assist 0.

I don't understand the safety issue though. The bike turns on in assist 1. If I don't want it to move, I can turn it off.
FREYebikes wrote:
Dec 21, 2017 11:04 pm
...Bafang design the motor not 0 speed to start the throttle because of security and safety consideration under an unexpected sudden start. If want to make the throttle work, must set not 0, it can be a very little number. have you got my meaning?
I can tell you that my BBSHD will start from 0, and if you bump it the bike takes off really easy with no rider!
I've also bumped it climbing some tough technical, really throws you off on those too. But hey all part of the experience, right.

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by Drop Dead Fred » Dec 22, 2017 1:05 am

FREYebikes wrote:
Dec 21, 2017 10:56 pm
We will considerate to develop new model with Bafang M600, but that's depend on the market demands on what customers really want to get! if with M600 motor, what battery capacity would prefer to match! Now Bafang is in mode producing process for the motor, and the motor expect to release in April we think, the time schedule is just as Ultra motor release at beginning of this year!
gidooo wrote:
Dec 21, 2017 7:45 am
Im waiting for new 2018 Bafang motor M600
http://www.bafang-e.com/en/drive-system ... ystem.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZR0gFy1xIGQ

I dont need so much power and want lighter motor, shorter chainstay, narrow q factor....
Do Frey plan to make bikes with new Bafang motor?
Turbo Levo is 21.5 KG so if using the M600 can get the weight down on a similar Bafang system that would be something!

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by scrambler » Dec 22, 2017 1:11 am

FREYebikes wrote:
Dec 21, 2017 10:48 pm
hi, our bike frame width is 148mm with thru axle 148*12mm.
Do you have any recommend IGH to match our bike or we can test?
Thank you in advance for your reply.
You want to find out which IGH can support the Ultra Torque and power, then choose the one with the widest gear range.

The one we know works, is the Rohloff, Very rugged, best 526% gear range, but it is very expensive and has more gears than really needed (14).

Next in line to test would be the Alfine 8 as suggested (307% gear range), and if that is not strong enough, may be the Sturmey archer 5 (243% gear range) also mentioned in an earlier thread.

Finally there is the Upcoming NuVinci N380X (not the existing N380) with a 380% gear range. On paper it is not supposed to handle the 160Nm of the Ultra, but it may.

As a main manufacturer, one thing you can do is try to explain to IGH Manufacturer that there is a strong need for IGH for High power electric bikes like the ones using the Ultra motor, to motivate them to develop stronger versions of their IGHs.
Last edited by scrambler on Dec 22, 2017 1:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by robocam » Dec 22, 2017 1:15 am

The 160 Nm rating is for the crank output. You have to convert it based on your gear ratio because the torque at the IGH depends on the size of the crankset chainring. It would only be 160 Nm if the rear sprocket were 44T, which would be a 1:1 ratio. What's a typical tooth count for an IGH sprocket?
scrambler wrote:
Dec 22, 2017 1:11 am
...On paper it is not supposed to handle the 160Nm of the Ultra, but it may...

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by scrambler » Dec 22, 2017 1:20 am

FREYebikes wrote:
Dec 21, 2017 11:04 pm
I try to answer your below question:
Bafang design the motor not 0 speed to start the throttle because of security and safety consideration under an unexpected sudden start. If want to make the throttle work, must set not 0, it can be a very little number. have you got my meaning?
If the goal is to prevent someone to turn on the throtle while not on the bike (which can be dangerous), I would say a minimum speed slighly above walking speed would do, like 5km/h (3 mph).
An other way would be to only activate the throtle if there is pressure on the pedal, which would imply the rider is on the bike not off the bike. That would require that throtle activation can be linked to the torque sensor reading.

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by scrambler » Dec 22, 2017 1:27 am

robocam wrote:
Dec 22, 2017 1:15 am
The 160 Nm rating is for the crank output. You have to convert it based on your gear ratio because the torque at the IGH depends on the size of the crankset chainring. It would only be 160 Nm if the rear sprocket were 44T, which would be a 1:1 ratio. What's a typical tooth count for an IGH sprocket?
That would depend on where you want to use the IGH range most and on the wheel diameter, but I would say around 16 / 44 is the likely ratio you would want to use.

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by robocam » Dec 22, 2017 1:30 am

Ok, so if you use a 16 tooth sprocket, the torque at the IGH would only be 58 Nm max. Can it handle that?
scrambler wrote:
Dec 22, 2017 1:27 am
robocam wrote:
Dec 22, 2017 1:15 am
The 160 Nm rating is for the crank output. You have to convert it based on your gear ratio because the torque at the IGH depends on the size of the crankset chainring. It would only be 160 Nm if the rear sprocket were 44T, which would be a 1:1 ratio. What's a typical tooth count for an IGH sprocket?
That would depend on where you want to use the IGH range most and on the wheel diameter, but I would say around 16 / 44 is the likely ratio you would want to use.

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by Tom L » Dec 22, 2017 2:51 am

robocam wrote:
Dec 22, 2017 1:30 am
Ok, so if you use a 16 tooth sprocket, the torque at the IGH would only be 58 Nm max. Can it handle that?
It’s rated for 500W and 100Nm.

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by robocam » Dec 22, 2017 3:45 am

Thanks. For trail riding, I think it would be more than adequate. The Ultra would be sending it about half the continuous torque rating, and the average torque would be much lower. I wonder why it has a power limit. Does this mean it will overheat if the power exceeds 500W continuously? This should also mean that it can handle bursts that exceed 500W but stay within the torque limit. Can anyone think of any other reason why it would have a power limit in addition to a torque limit?

If the older N380 can almost handle a BBSHD, then this new N380x should have no problem with it or the Ultra.

My concern is that I don't know if I would be satisfied with a 380% gear range. If I'm going to pay extra for this, I want at least a 500% range, which makes the Rohloff my only option. Honestly though, I haven't really had any major issues with the standard cassette & rear derailleur setup, so I think I'll stick with that for now, but I'll be curiously watching what you guys come up with, =) and maybe I'll change my mind someday.
Tom L wrote:
Dec 22, 2017 2:51 am
It’s rated for 500W and 100Nm.

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by icehunter » Dec 22, 2017 10:42 am

Wikipedia has a table with the gearing range, see below.
"A range of 300% or 3:1 means that for the same pedalling speed a cyclist could travel 3 times as fast in top gear as in bottom gear (assuming sufficient strength, etc.). Conversely, for the same pedalling effort, a cyclist could climb a much steeper hill in bottom gear than in top gear."

The key here is that they assume human strength and same pedalling effort. With a motor you have max ultra strength and when using the throttle at max, the bike probably goes faster than your feet can keep up with. The effective range of a 7-speed hub gear is therefore probably much greater than 300% when using the motor.
The Rohloff has a 526% range but the mean step between gears is 13,5% vs. 20,1% for 7-speed hub gears, which explains why Rohloff users tend to shift two or more gears at a time. A typical car has 30% step range.

7-speed hub gears give 300% range
8-speed hub gears give 307% range
typical 1 chainring derailleur setup (1x10, 11-36) give 327% range
road 1 chainring derailleur setup (1x11, 11-36) give 327% range
NuVinci continuously variable transmission[8] give 380% range
11-speed hub gears give 409% range
Rohloff Speedhub 14-speed hub gear give 526% range

see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_gearing

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by scrambler » Dec 22, 2017 1:00 pm

robocam wrote:
Dec 22, 2017 1:30 am
Ok, so if you use a 16 tooth sprocket, the torque at the IGH would only be 58 Nm max. Can it handle that?
Yes it does, but it is not supposed to be able to handle 1500W...
I am still hopeful for a non hardcore use, as some people did install the old N380 on a BBS02, and that was not supposed to work either.

But until the Hub comes out and can be tested, there is little way to be sure. If it does work, it would be the best option, as 380% range and CVT is a great proposition. Plus the NuVinci has an optional Harmony controller that gives you electronic shifting or automatic cadence based shifting, which both make riding a real pleasure.
Last edited by scrambler on Dec 22, 2017 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by scrambler » Dec 22, 2017 1:20 pm

robocam wrote:
Dec 22, 2017 3:45 am
If I'm going to pay extra for this, I want at least a 500% range, which makes the Rohloff my only option.
Indeed it is, start saving :)

Interesting news about the Rohloff, they recently introduced an E-14 electronic shifter. In the first release it will only work integrated with the Bosch motors with the ability to have less virtual gears ( like shift 3 gears at a time), but I heard that they are planning on a standalone shifter that would allow it to be used on any existing Rohloff hub and any bike. Unknown is if the standalone shifter will have the ability to define virtual gears too.
Last edited by scrambler on Dec 22, 2017 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by Robleman » Dec 22, 2017 2:26 pm

FREYebikes wrote:
Dec 21, 2017 10:48 pm
hi, our bike frame width is 148mm with thru axle 148*12mm.
Do you have any recommend IGH to match our bike or we can test?
Thank you in advance for your reply.
Robleman wrote:
Dec 19, 2017 4:20 pm
Just to share my experience with IGH Alfine 8 combined with a bafang BBSHD: awesome!

It is working without problems for about 8 months. Chainline is good. 1,5KW peak power ok. Range is more than enough for single track riding.

Only issue to take care of is the cable regulation, its very sensible so if you don't set it well it makes noises as its going to break. But once its done ok it keeps the setting for long.

So I recommend the Alfine 8 for middrives to everyone.👍
Hi, i'm sorry my Alfine 8 is for 135mm width not 148mm. This is the only IGH I have tested so far.

But you can find very good and detailed info about several IGH at Sheldon Brown pages:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/nexus8.shtml

Also info about Nuvinci and Bafang here:
https://electricbike-blog.com/2016/01/0 ... -them-all/

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by robocam » Dec 22, 2017 3:30 pm

I just went outside to test this, and the throttle and torque sensor both work from a dead stop. =)
scrambler wrote:
Dec 21, 2017 12:46 pm
...On most bikes using the Bafang (Max or Ultra) The throttle does not work from a dead stop, you have to be going a few miles per hour before it works. This is apparently because Bafang believes throttling from a dead stop may damage the motor.

Can you confirm if the throttle on the Frey works from a dead stop, or only for a few miles per hour, and if so how many.

Note: This mat be different with Ultra using the Metal reduction gear versus the original nylon one

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by scrambler » Dec 22, 2017 4:30 pm

Thanks

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