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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Posted: Jun 19 2018 8:56pm
by Tom L
I did not have any luck measuring the ID as my callipers couldn't reach past the clamp section. Your idea of measuring the OD and subtracting the wall thickness is a better idea. I'll have another go tonight.

Regarding the light, I used the female connector (from the controller) as it was the one that mated with the male connector on the end of the cable heading up to the handlebars that is terminated with female spade lugs for connection to a light. I'll have a look at the male connector tonight. Though I won't be changing anything as I do not want to drop the motor off again (that was a PITA) and I'm happy with the current operation. I'm just interested to know if it is intended to work that way.

Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Posted: Jun 20 2018 7:37am
by trooper5707
Just saw this posted - 25% tariff on ebikes - I read it open for comment until July 31, I am fairly sure mine should get here before then, but wow.

https://www.bicycleretailer.com/industr ... ypJzKdKhPZ

Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Posted: Jun 20 2018 10:52pm
by FREYebikes
Hi, one point confirm to all friends, some maybe confused earlier about the seat tube.
Now on 2018 AM1000 the precise matching diameter of seat post is 31.8mm, it can be compatible to 31.6mm we tested just tighten the clamp screw by a 6-8N force. please see some photos below:
IMG_20180621_094438.jpg
IMG_20180621_094438.jpg (223.51 KiB) Viewed 2669 times
IMG_20180621_094516.jpg
IMG_20180621_095016.jpg
We realize why now so few good electric mountain bike manufacturer in China. there are several difficulties to many company.
One main reason is good knowledge and experience on mountain bike design, developing and manufacturing.
The other main reason is the chain supply on mountain bike line is not completely. we plan to make the bike with a matching 30.9mm or 31.6mm seat post, but most of frame manufacturers even no this 2 size seat tube to match which is international standard to mountain bike seat post. As we learnt, only Giant use 31.6mm size seat tube. this is very strange.
It means if we would like to do these 2 size, we can only make the material by ourselves.
It means more works should be done by ourselves and we need to make more specific design and developing next and in the future in order to make the bike better and better.



Ivanovitch_k wrote:
Jun 19 2018 6:55pm
Tom L wrote:
Jun 18 2018 6:53pm
Could someone with an unmodified light cable check what the voltage is[...]
Have you tried using the second light connector (I listed them a few posts back ) ? I think one is always on (when display is set on) and another is enabled / goes higher voltage on braking. I will play around with a test setup tomorrow.

Tom L wrote:
Jun 18 2018 6:53pm
I have a set of digital callipers at home. I'll measure the ID of the seat post down tube tonight.
Thanks, I await the results eagerly.

I also happen to have a very good industrial digital caliper that I keep calibrated against grade 0 standard gauges (+0.05 µm).

To measure tubes I.D. the proper tool would be a bore micrometer (with a caliper you never know if you are measuring the true diameter or a string of the circle) but we can get close enough by getting the O.D. and subtracting the wall thicknesses at the points of contact. This does adds up the uncertainty error of each measurement but with a reasonable tool this is ok-ish.

I did so and got 37.63-(2.71+2.83) = 32.09 mm. which is somewhat coherent with a 31.8 post but totally unacceptable for a 31.6 one.

A quote from another forum states:
Typically, posts are spec'd to be 0.2mm under the nominal inner diameter of the seat tube. For instance, an imperial Columbus SL seat tube has a nominal outer diameter of 28.6mm and a nominal wall thickness of 0.6mm at the post end, which results in a nominal inner diameter of 27.4mm. The standard post diameter for an SL frame is 27.2mm. source
So, I pushed the experiment a bit further and verified the fit using soda can shims stack. Most cans have a very precise 0.10mm thickness (0.097mm is the industry standard).

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here is what we start with, the frey claimed as 31.6 with a thomson elite 31.6 and a radon zr team 30.9 retrofited with a 30.9 Suntour NCX (the radon is a taiwan-made frame assembled in germany, the frame itself cost ~150eur).


In both cases, I applied force to push the tube back and concentrate the gap on one side. As per the previous quote, we should expect a max gap of 0.1mm on each side, hence 0.2mm total.

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On the Frey I need a stack of 5 shims (hence 0.50mm gap) to stop the rocking. And even like that this is still not a snug fit.

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On the radon frame, I can only insert 2 shims, the second with force. Doing so is enough to hold the post in the tube with no clamp at all even though both are greased... 2 shims are 0.20mm which is on par with the industry-standard tolerances stated before.

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So, the Frey is clearly out of spec by ~+0.3mm..

It might seems a small error but posts are made in 0.2mm increments for a specific reason and seat tubes must be matched precisely to avoid slip & damages.

Pinging Ivy about that, we'll see...

But If you're the kind of meticulous person as I am this is very infuriating (that plus the head tube's jammed-in, non-reamed, non-faced, non-greased bearing cups). Especially when you take into consideration the not-to-be-disclosed-but-very-EU/NA-price-tag on the frame set...

Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Posted: Jun 21 2018 4:25pm
by Ivanovitch_k
I have done a small video to showcase the seatpost issue



FREYebikes wrote:
Jun 20 2018 10:52pm
Hi, one point confirm to all friends, some maybe confused earlier about the seat tube.
Now on 2018 AM1000 the precise matching diameter of seat post is 31.8mm
Ok, thanks for the clarification.

Although, It would have been better to not tell & confirm me it was 31.6 before I ordered :roll:

Please make sure the product page is updated to reflect that it is, in fact, 31.8mm and not 31.6. Some people buying droppers could be upset otherwise...

And while I understand that it might be hard to source the proper tubes, this is still a bummer, as IIRC the diameter was already changed on v2018 frame to be more compatible with droppers (someone here complained about non-common size on v2017 version).

Frey should really look into a way to do a common-size (27.2 ; 30.9 ; 31.6 or 34.9) post diameter:
- with -0.0 ; +0.20mm MAX seat tube diameter tolerance,
- tested against a a reputable post, like Thomson.

FREYebikes wrote:
Jun 20 2018 10:52pm
it can be compatible to 31.6mm we tested just tighten the clamp screw by a 6-8N force. please see some photos below:
Sure, just like one can put a 27.0mm post in a frame designed for 27.2... but if both exists it's for a slew of good reasons.

While torquing the cr*** out of the clamp can likely prevent the post sliding under most conditions, it may not hold true on rough trails / jumps...

Post retention is based on the tubes contact area which needs tight tolerances to be large enough. The clamp action itself is contributing a bit but is not the most important in the fit.

As a smaller post, there is less contact with the inner seat tube surface, the fit relies therefore much more on the clamp itself, which might not be designed to handle the extra load. Plus, some thin-walled posts could also be damaged by the extra clamping force.

Also, on hard braking and accelerations the tube can rock back and forth since the clamp becomes/acts as a pivot point.
Dimensions are exaggerated but this is what happens inside the tube:

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In the long run this might cause metal fatigue / creaks...

The solution I have now is to use a cane creek 31.8 shim to 27.2 to use another 27.2 thomson post I have laying around. They do not make one in 31.8 and the only available posts in this size are either entry level or mega-expensive... If it still does not fit well, I will give these shims a try.



FREYebikes wrote:
Jun 20 2018 10:52pm
As we learnt, only Giant use 31.6mm size seat tube. this is very strange.
:shock: ? 31.6 is like the most common diameter on MTB ! o_O

check out all these bikes, from big to small brands, they all use 31.6 seat posts: Cannondale, Salsa Cycles, Radon bikes, Commencal, Trek, Cube, the list goes on and on...

if you go to any shop (here bike24, but it is exactly the same on big ones like chainreaction, alltricks...) and look at how many posts they sell by diameter:

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you will always see 31.6 as the one with the most choice, followed by 30.9 and 27.2.

here, 31.8mm has only 8 seatposts, vs 264 for 31.6mm !

Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Posted: Jun 22 2018 8:13am
by fechter
The shims should work if you get the right size. Thudbuster seat posts have the same issue. There are so many sizes of seat tubes out there it's hard to fit them all. I use shims with my Thudbuster and it's rock solid.

Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Posted: Jun 23 2018 7:39am
by Ivanovitch_k
fechter wrote:
Jun 22 2018 8:13am
The shims should work if you get the right size. Thudbuster seat posts have the same issue. There are so many sizes of seat tubes out there it's hard to fit them all. I use shims with my Thudbuster and it's rock solid.
They will, but here it's not a post issue, it's a frame spec one.

First frame revs were some odd Ø. Someone here made the remark here after trying to find a suitable dropper.

So Frey changed it to 31.6 on the MY 2018 frame, which is good as it's the most common mtb size.

But I discovered it is in fact 31.8. Which is a very uncommon size. Frey should never have marketed it as 31.6 (and double confirm it to me before sealing the deal).

Now they tell us to go ahead and force clamp 31.6 posts in their frame which, as explained above, is a very bad idea.

Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Posted: Jun 25 2018 12:47am
by Cruncher123
Ivy@Frey

Can't contact you via Alibaba - says your email inbox is full

Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Posted: Jun 25 2018 7:08am
by Jebu
I can't contact either.
And I have serious problems with the rear wheel.
My core and the axis are destroyed.

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Posted: Jun 25 2018 8:55am
by trooper5707
ouch

Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Posted: Jun 25 2018 11:59am
by Sdmountain
Got my 2 AM1000s about week ago one for me one for a friend. Been thrilled with bike thus far. However unfortunately as of this weekend my bike is showing error code 30 and therefore no throttle or PAS. I’ve double checked all my accessible connections, not sure what the next step is. It’s not the display as I was able to swap and rule that out.

Emailed Ivy over the weekend, concerned that you guys aren’t hearing back from her either. Hope she’s okay.
I wonder if there is a backup contact for us Frey owners?

Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Posted: Jun 25 2018 12:45pm
by Hardcore
Using the Alibaba app, I was able to contact her and last weekend (yesterday 25.06.2018) she still replied. Hopefully this eases people on the non-contactability of Ivy.

Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Posted: Jun 25 2018 3:08pm
by fechter
Sdmountain wrote:
Jun 25 2018 11:59am
Got my 2 AM1000s about week ago one for me one for a friend. Been thrilled with bike thus far. However unfortunately as of this weekend my bike is showing error code 30 and therefore no throttle or PAS. I’ve double checked all my accessible connections, not sure what the next step is. It’s not the display as I was able to swap and rule that out.
Error code 30 translates to "Communication Fault". Since you tried a different display, you can probably eliminate that as a cause. Then it would be either a bad connection somewhere between the display connector and the controller board or the comm chip fried. There is a connection inside the motor housing. It's possible if the wire got pulled or just from vibration it may have partially unplugged itself. If the wire is OK and properly plugged into the controller board, then it would point to the comm chip or possibly corrupted software.

Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Posted: Jun 25 2018 3:25pm
by Ivanovitch_k
Jebu wrote:
Jun 25 2018 7:08am
I can't contact either.
She can't be far, I got a message from her yesterday too.
Jebu wrote:
Jun 25 2018 7:08am
And I have serious problems with the rear wheel.
My core and the axis are destroyed.
It's likely those cheap Novatec hubs can't handle the torque of the ultra...

If you can get some money back from frey, you could get yourself some nice DT Swiss wheels.
All their hubs are rated for 400 N.m torque at the pawls / ratchets. And they also have "hybrid" (= ebike) wheels whith everything beefed-up. Those have hubs that go as high as 500N.m !

If I were on a budget I would get the H1900 hybrid wheelset (or just rear), absolutely AAA-class stuff.

Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Posted: Jun 25 2018 3:38pm
by Ivanovitch_k
fechter wrote:
Jun 25 2018 3:08pm
There is a connection inside the motor housing. It's possible if the wire got pulled or just from vibration it may have partially unplugged itself.
unlikely. If he has a recent (V1.5) motor, the EBUS connector is so close to the next one that it's locking tab is blocked. It can go in but is very hard to unlock, you almost need to pry it / bend the adjacent connector to get it out. Not cool bafang :|

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My hunch would be that the issue is probably outside the motor :?:

Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Posted: Jun 26 2018 11:18pm
by FREYebikes
Hi All,

I am always available. I did not realize one of my email full and I can't receive message recently days.
Please write to sales@frey.bike which I use more often.
Any question please feel free contact any time. I will answer as soon as I read it.
Cruncher123 wrote:
Jun 25 2018 12:47am
Ivy@Frey

Can't contact you via Alibaba - says your email inbox is full

Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Posted: Jun 26 2018 11:24pm
by FREYebikes
Hi,

About your destroyed hub, please get contact with me. Let 's see what we can support to help you solve the issue. We will be responsible for you. Please don't worry.
We are looking for some better durable hubs for the bike. Anything not good enough, we are improving and will keep improving.
Jebu wrote:
Jun 25 2018 7:08am
I can't contact either.
And I have serious problems with the rear wheel.
My core and the axis are destroyed.

Image

Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Posted: Jun 27 2018 9:46pm
by Marmalade
I'm about to order an AM-1000 as well, my first e-mtb, looking forward to it!

Ivy has been great and have been offered the Deore 10 speed group set over the EX1. I'm only a light rider at 60kgs (130lbs) so may not need the 11 gears.. but what about durability?

thanks :)

Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Posted: Jun 27 2018 10:04pm
by Animalector
What Novatec model are these hubs? I k ow they make some higher quality versions, 5 bearing ones...

Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Posted: Jun 28 2018 9:17pm
by trooper5707
Marmalade wrote:
Jun 27 2018 9:46pm
I'm about to order an AM-1000 as well, my first e-mtb, looking forward to it!

Ivy has been great and have been offered the Deore 10 speed group set over the EX1. I'm only a light rider at 60kgs (130lbs) so may not need the 11 gears.. but what about durability?

thanks :)
Is the EX1 not available? I paid the extra for it on mine, I wanted the strength.

Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Posted: Jun 29 2018 7:35am
by Mantsos
trooper5707 wrote:
Jun 28 2018 9:17pm
Marmalade wrote:
Jun 27 2018 9:46pm
I'm about to order an AM-1000 as well, my first e-mtb, looking forward to it!

Ivy has been great and have been offered the Deore 10 speed group set over the EX1. I'm only a light rider at 60kgs (130lbs) so may not need the 11 gears.. but what about durability?

thanks :)
Is the EX1 not available? I paid the extra for it on mine, I wanted the strength.
Take EX1. It would be better for power.

Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Posted: Jun 29 2018 11:38pm
by Tom L
I just wrote this as a reply to a PM and thought I'd post it here as a general review for anyone else interested in this bike:

This is my first full suspension bike so I don't have much to compare it to (last one was a BBSO2 Giant Alias hardtail). The first thing I noticed was the weight. This bike is heavy. However I don't notice it at all when riding (just when putting it in the car).

I've got a pretty short commute through back streets and bush tracks. Riding over gutters and tree roots has never been so smooth. I hardly need to get up out of the seat. I love the big wheels and full suspension. I've had a go at a nearby (not very technical) single track and it was a lot of fun.

The battery is massive compared to my last one. I'm probably not going to bother putting a Watt-hour meter on it to keep track of discharge state because of this (also I have no desire to take the motor off again).

As for power, I have to ride some long ridiculously steep paved grades. The bike pulls it's weight and me (95kg) up the hills at a reasonable 15-20km/h in the top PAS level or on throttle. The throttle seems a lot more linear than my BBS02. I have noticed no overheating problems. The brakes are excellent.

The programming seems good. I'm not going to adjust it. I do notice it surges a little bit with pedal strokes if I have it in a high PAS level cruising along on the flat in low gear. This is more indicative of me being in too high a PAS level or low a gear though and I'm getting used to using the PAS power selection more often than I used to with my BBS02.

Over all, definitely no buyers regret. I'm enjoying this bike a lot.

Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Posted: Jun 30 2018 4:12am
by Ivanovitch_k
Tom L wrote:
Jun 29 2018 11:38pm
The throttle seems a lot more linear than my BBS02.
big +1, bafang really improved the throttle sensitivity levels vs the BBS02B

Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Posted: Jun 30 2018 4:18am
by Mantsos
I got my bike yesterday. I just wondering only when I use only throttle why that bike take a "power peak" after 25km/h? That bike accelerate very "slow" to 25km/h but after this speed start happening and it go over 40km/h easily. Should I change some settings from the program? I already tested to change throttle handle "start current (%) 10" to 20% but I don't see much of differences.

Or should I test to change Throttle handle mode speed to "current" ?

I wont to go fast when I use only throttle my last bbs02 motor was much faster what this is now.
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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Posted: Jul 01 2018 5:24pm
by Ivanovitch_k
battery disassembly day.

Still applying the famous Australian motto "Don't turn it on, take it apart" :mrgreen:

Doing so mostly because I'm changing the BMS for a speedict neptune 15 (a very cool piece of kit) but also to check the assembly for potential issues...

So this is the 48V 21Ah model, 13S6P with supposedly LG MJ1 3.5Ah cells.

Casing is made by Reention (known for the "Dolphin" & "Whale" models), model is Dorado ID-something (their website is unbearingly slow these days...)

On opening,

first thing I'm worried with is that even though there are sealing lips provisioned on the plastic end caps, they are of no use with the aluminum body, so it's not great to prevent water ingress.

Is Reention using this part on other tubes with better design ? Or was the mold already done and they cheaped out on the body ? We'll never know but this sucks nonetheless.

If any serious rain riding is intended, adding some good electrical tape (like 3M 33) on the outside will help a lot.

A better version could be designed and 3D printed too. I might look into that when i'll run out of spares and need to change the stock connector sets.

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Amongst the wire bundle, the main discharge leads are retained by selastic, all the others are free moving. Not a major issue as most are connector terminated. But, the 48->5V USB converter input is soldered in and quite poorly: wires are thin and have a 90° bend at the joint, with vibrations and wire movement, they will eventually break :!:

Things are pretty well insulated with all this cardboard around so a dead short is unlikely, but still. They could have secured it as they have done for the others surely. Or use a connector :roll:

Also, my negative converter input lead is damaged, was trapped in a screw post apparently, wtf :?

Anyways, I'm ditching this module so I'm not too worried, but you guys might want to check yours...

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On the other end of the battery, we get the charge connector. Same remark about water ingress.
But here, the wires are held in place with selastic and use a connector for easy disassembly (more likely for faster production but hey ^^). Cool.

As a side note, the connector placement is quite strange on this battery.

The discharge port is located at the top of the downtube, whereas the charge one is at the bottom. This means the discharge cable runs the totality of the downtube to reach the motor. Voltage drop. Cable weight & cost. Poor design choices made by Reention there IMO.

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Onto the BMS,

Looks quite decent. Controls charge and discharge on 1 lead. Measures 70 * 52mm. Around 8mm thick, but a much thicker one could easliy fit. Has a thermal cutoff sensor which states 90°C. PCBA is conformally coated, not perfectly but good enough. There are thermal pads on the alu spreader. Mosfets are SkySilicon, a Chinese brand, but with available specs. I did not looked much more into it as I'm swapping in the Neptune...

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Now, onto the cells.

It was a MASSIVE PIA to get the cell array out.

A jig is probably used at the factory to force push the bundle in the casing.

First I removed all the selastic on the BMS side of the battery, to allow it to slide out unobstructed.

Then I cut a piece of wood approximately battery shaped, onto which I sticked a thick dense foam pad. I did not want to hammer directly on the cells, even through this makeshift padded shim.

Instead, I sat the battery on a pvc pipe I had laying around and repeatedly hammered (with a rubber mallet) on a side corner of the alu casing. Effectively pushing the casing down on the battery.

I also roasted the battery in the sun for a few minutes to allow the casing to expand (the cells themselves, with their high thermal mass remained cool). That helped quite a bit. Once 1/3 of the battery was out, this went much quicker.

Overall it took 30min+ of hammering :x

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And, oh surprise. No LG MJ1 cells as advertised. Instead, we get Samsung 35E. 78 of them. In plastic holders.


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I mean, they are good cells but I was sold a MJ1 pack... I don't like that. Asked Ivy about it, waiting her response.
If a change was made in production they should have told us and updated their product page.

From the research I've done, capacity is around the same but the 35E have a higher cutoff vs the other 3.5Ah cell (GA, MJ1) at 2.65V vs 2.5V. --> Set the motor LVC accordingly :!:

Voltage sag looks worse on the 35E and it seems they are quite bad in cycle life if fully discharged (dead at ~300 Cycles @ 100% DoD). So avoid like the plage fully draining your batteries...

It also happens they are ~15% cheaper than the MJ1...


Last, about all this green cardboard wraped on the cells. It's too much. This is what made the removal such a massive headache.

As can be seen on the below, the cardboard got scored by the screw holders within the tube, indicating again too much material. Plus if it's goal was to protect the battery it's moot as it's not covering the whole array. And there is some random white cardboard added, wtf :lol: :?:

Anyways, I'm going to rewrap it properly and will secure it with EASILY removable shims :D

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Overall, I would say the build of the array itself is OK. The spot welds appear strong enough (6 points per cell).

Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Posted: Jul 01 2018 5:49pm
by Ivanovitch_k
Mantsos wrote:
Jun 30 2018 4:18am
Or should I test to change throttle handle mode speed to "current" ?
Yes, change it to Current mode. It's much smoother.

You can also try to lower start and increase end voltages to better match your specific throttle model response. Try 1 by 1 mv until you get something that doesn't work anymore and back off by 1.