BBSHD + Grin Phaserunner (52V okay, 72V problem)

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titusmc   100 W

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BBSHD + Grin Phaserunner (52V okay, 72V problem)

Post by titusmc » Oct 16 2017 7:20am

Hi -

I'm working on an external controller mod for one of my BBSHDs using a V2 Grin Phaserunner. Goal is to run 72V (20S) at 40A with smooth/ramped acceleration from a stop to minimize stresses.

I made my own JST adapter cable for the hall sensors and motor temp sensor and added 10AWG phase wire using silver butt crimps. I paired the motor and controller using a 52V battery since I hadn't yet finished my 72V one, and everything ran okay. I took it for a test ride at 52V50A and everything was great except for some "judder" if I moved the throttle too quickly - surely must be a ramp rate issue that I can fix with CA3.

This weekend I finished my 72V battery (Samsung 30Q 20S5P, 60A BMS, 10AWG to XT90, triple-layer nickel). I hooked it up and got a hall sensor fault (LED code 1-6). The communication over USB seemed unstable as well. I tried the 52V battery again and everything was fine - halls are okay. The only thing I can think of is that the 5V line might be too high with the 72V battery for some reason, causing both the halls and USB to have issues. I'm going to check that tonight with a multimeter.

I know others have successfully used external controllers (including Phaserunner) on BBSHD. Hopefully someone has the answer or a decent troubleshooting idea.

Thanks,
Matt
bike-compressed.JPG
battery-compressed.JPG

titusmc   100 W

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Re: BBSHD + Grin Phaserunner (52V okay, 72V problem)

Post by titusmc » Oct 17 2017 6:54am

Well, I seem to have figured out my own problem. I'll post about it for the benefit of others who may attempt this mod.

1. I charged up the 72V (20S) battery to full (84V) - not sure if this matters at all.
2. I plugged in the 52V battery to the Phaserunner (I originally configured with this battery), launched the Phaserunner software, and plugged in the USB.
3. I followed the instructions on ebikes.ca to reflash the "Default Parameter File."
4. I disconnected the 52v battery and plugged in the fully charged 84V battery.
5. I entered the approximate kv of the BBSHD (70 RPM/V) and pole-pair count (4) in the software.
6. I ran the autotune test (spun backwards on first run).
7. Leaving the battery rated voltage at 48V, I changed only the regen voltage (BBSHD can't regen anway), max power and max current settings.

The bike now runs fairly well on 72V limited to 3000W. I ramped the acceleration from a stop to be slower using CA3 throttle ramp (1V/sec up). My only remaining issue is that I experience a motor judder whenever I coast on no throttle and reapply throttle, such as coming out of rolling through a corner or coasting down a hill. I've read that this is not exactly easy to fix, and that a minimum throttle output setting might be one solution.

Can anyone point me in the direction of useful material for fixing/reducing this judder issue? If I solve this, the bike will be basically perfect. Light, stealth (except for speed), silent, powerful.

titusmc   100 W

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Re: BBSHD + Grin Phaserunner (52V okay, 72V problem)

Post by titusmc » Oct 27 2017 7:15am

Fixed the judder issue last week - posted about it in the "Ultimate 3000W BBSHD" thread.

I highly recommend this mod to anyone with a fair amount of ebike experience (3 years for me, plus a good engineering education). I already owned 2 BBS02s and 2 BBSHDs when I started this too, so I was familiar with stock performance on 52V. The move to 3000W (72V@40A-ish) is incredible. The need to change gears has basically disappeared for me - I've been in 30T front/16T rear for about 2 weeks and haven't found any hill I typically ride on (<10%) that I can't climb fast (25mph+). The bike tops out around 40 mph on a flat. With 72V@50A + field weakening I'm sure it could do even better, but I don't find that necessary - the bike already gets too much attention going 40mph.

melodious   100 kW

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Re: BBSHD + Grin Phaserunner (52V okay, 72V problem)

Post by melodious » Oct 27 2017 8:06am

The bike is screaming to put the battery in the frame :P . At 40 it would definitely handle better :wink: .
Surly Ogre rigid 29er, rear 10T MAC @ 50V 25AH & 40A: 30mph road/gravel/hill machine
42" dual diagonal Eskateboard @6s & 90mm wheels
Next: eMTB @10-12s & 8"-12" pneumatic wheels; Got Strapped? d-(',')z

sabongi   100 W

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Re: BBSHD + Grin Phaserunner (52V okay, 72V problem)

Post by sabongi » Oct 27 2017 8:30am

You should get a EM3EV frame bag. It's amazing how the weight of the battery "dissapears" since it's so low on the ground!

titusmc   100 W

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Re: BBSHD + Grin Phaserunner (52V okay, 72V problem)

Post by titusmc » Oct 27 2017 9:22am

I actually have an EM3EV frame bag, but since the controller is mounted on the seat tube I wanted maximum airflow around it. I find the bike's handling to be acceptable with the battery on the rack, but a triangle battery would be nice sometimes - for instance, I have a custom made insulated pizza carrier that works on my topeak mtx rack that I like to use. On my other BBSHD bike I simply clip the pizza carrier onto the frame and run a 14S5P pack in the EM3EV bag.

Aerialpixels   1 mW

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Re: BBSHD + Grin Phaserunner (52V okay, 72V problem)

Post by Aerialpixels » Dec 21 2017 7:09pm

I have my Phase runner running on 21s Lipo (88v).
Phase current is set to 96a
Max current continuous is 46a
Flux weakening set to 32 amps
Ramp is 12v/sec
Rad set to 1.5
Min throttle output is set. 01v above minimum to just get the motor to barely spin while coasting. Current draw not moving is about 200ma
While coasting, chain ring spins slowly and when re-engaging throttle its liquid smooth. Barely noticeable.

Ebrake lever cuts throttle completely while stationary.
Internal thermistor installed on windings. Thermal CPU paste added between stator core and hosing to efficiently draw heat away and copper heatsinks added to outside.

Max temps have not breached 120F and I'm geared 42 chain to 32 rear cog. Bike easily goes 48mph. No shifting and wheelies in 1st - 3rd gear.

This is THE setup none of the pros have figured out.
Your welcome
Joe

StinkyGoalieGuy   100 W

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Re: BBSHD + Grin Phaserunner (52V okay, 72V problem)

Post by StinkyGoalieGuy » Dec 21 2017 11:38pm

Thanks for sharing your setup. I may have to try it out.

Can you explain what you mean by this?
Aerialpixels wrote:
Dec 21 2017 7:09pm
No shifting and wheelies in 1st - 3rd gear.
If you are not shifting, how are you getting into 3 gears?

andrebandre   10 W

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Re: BBSHD + Grin Phaserunner (52V okay, 72V problem)

Post by andrebandre » Dec 30 2017 2:39am

Aerialpixels wrote:
Dec 21 2017 7:09pm
I have my Phase runner running on 21s Lipo (88v).
Phase current is set to 96a
Max current continuous is 46a
Flux weakening set to 32 amps
Ramp is 12v/sec
Rad set to 1.5
Min throttle output is set. 01v above minimum to just get the motor to barely spin while coasting. Current draw not moving is about 200ma
While coasting, chain ring spins slowly and when re-engaging throttle its liquid smooth. Barely noticeable.

This is THE setup none of the pros have figured out.
Your welcome
Joe
Ramp is 12v/sec
Where did you set this parameter, por favor?
Is it the PR Suite or the CA? I can't guess for the life of me .

RollerBoy   1 mW

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Re: BBSHD + Grin Phaserunner (52V okay, 72V problem)

Post by RollerBoy » Dec 30 2017 5:16pm

Andrebandre, that's a CA3 setting.

andrebandre   10 W

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Re: BBSHD + Grin Phaserunner (52V okay, 72V problem)

Post by andrebandre » Jan 10 2018 11:53am

RollerBoy wrote:
Dec 30 2017 5:16pm
Andrebandre, that's a CA3 setting.
Thank you RollerBoy!

I did increase the minimum throttle out to where it barely spins the wheel in order to keep the motor engaged all the time but i didn't dare messing with anything else.
The only problem i have now and then with throttle applied (cruising) is some stuttering as if it loses sync. I back off it and reapply it and all is well. Very vary happy with the performance, i ride gently but i can feel the wheelie power is there.

tinasdude   10 W

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Re: BBSHD + Grin Phaserunner (52V okay, 72V problem)

Post by tinasdude » Jan 13 2018 10:59am

titusmc wrote:
Oct 16 2017 7:20am
Hi -

I'm working on an external controller mod for one of my BBSHDs using a V2 Grin Phaserunner. Goal is to run 72V (20S) at 40A with smooth/ramped acceleration from a stop to minimize stresses.

I made my own JST adapter cable for the hall sensors and motor temp sensor and added 10AWG phase wire using silver butt crimps. I paired the motor and controller using a 52V battery since I hadn't yet finished my 72V one, and everything ran okay. I took it for a test ride at 52V50A and everything was great except for some "judder" if I moved the throttle too quickly - surely must be a ramp rate issue that I can fix with CA3.

This weekend I finished my 72V battery (Samsung 30Q 20S5P, 60A BMS, 10AWG to XT90, triple-layer nickel). I hooked it up and got a hall sensor fault (LED code 1-6). The communication over USB seemed unstable as well. I tried the 52V battery again and everything was fine - halls are okay. The only thing I can think of is that the 5V line might be too high with the 72V battery for some reason, causing both the halls and USB to have issues. I'm going to check that tonight with a multimeter.

I know others have successfully used external controllers (including Phaserunner) on BBSHD. Hopefully someone has the answer or a decent troubleshooting idea.

Thanks,
Matt

bike-compressed.JPG
battery-compressed.JPG
Did you use any field weakening with the 52V battery at 50 amps, If so what settings, and what were the results? Thanks

RollerBoy   1 mW

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Re: BBSHD + Grin Phaserunner (52V okay, 72V problem)

Post by RollerBoy » Jul 06 2018 9:27pm

andrebandre wrote:
Jan 10 2018 11:53am
RollerBoy wrote:
Dec 30 2017 5:16pm
Andrebandre, that's a CA3 setting.
Thank you RollerBoy!

I did increase the minimum throttle out to where it barely spins the wheel in order to keep the motor engaged all the time but i didn't dare messing with anything else.
The only problem i have now and then with throttle applied (cruising) is some stuttering as if it loses sync. I back off it and reapply it and all is well. Very vary happy with the performance, i ride gently but i can feel the wheelie power is there.
Happening to mine, at about 80% throttle, the rpm and current drops suddenly. Will be working on it soon and will share what I find. Did you get any resolution?

andrebandre   10 W

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Re: BBSHD + Grin Phaserunner (52V okay, 72V problem)

Post by andrebandre » Jul 07 2018 2:43am

Yes, i did set the Phaserunner to start and run in sensored mode. No more stuttering.
Instead i met with some problem that i cannot get my head around.
I opened the motor to grease it and after putting it back together it seems like there is a speed limiting although i haven't touched anything in CA or PR settings. Everything is maxed out, no limiting anything, no errors in the diagnostic screen.
The motor runs nice and smooth, acceleration is the same except i can't get to the same top speed as before. Beats me.

evolutiongts   10 kW

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Re: BBSHD + Grin Phaserunner (52V okay, 72V problem)

Post by evolutiongts » Jul 07 2018 10:14am

Try increasing the field weakening settings. Also check the PR software and see if your maxed out on Vehicle Speed.
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andrebandre   10 W

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Re: BBSHD + Grin Phaserunner (52V okay, 72V problem)

Post by andrebandre » Jul 07 2018 6:15pm

Thank you Alan.
My next step was to add field weakening to increase the speed, but what bothers me is that before taking the motor apart i had zero amps of f.w. and it did run faster.
I am not sure if there is some mixup due to the fact that i started using the new PR configuration utility instead of the old one.
I'll keep messing with it one way or another till i get it right.
Except for the top speed it runs like a dream.

newjazz   1 mW

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Re: BBSHD + Grin Phaserunner (52V okay, 72V problem)

Post by newjazz » Oct 18 2018 2:58pm

wow, after reading this tread i want to get a phaserunner, cycle analysis and build a 72 volt 20s battery pack! the only thing is, i am wondering if it will be less reliable! actually, i busted the nylon reduction gear so, i am waiting for the part to rebuild my bbshd.
wouldnt it be better to use a metal replacement if i am going to up the performance?

andrebandre   10 W

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Re: BBSHD + Grin Phaserunner (52V okay, 72V problem)

Post by andrebandre » Oct 18 2018 10:06pm

I have used mine for almost one year for commuting with no motor issues so far.
I had to reflash the original Phaserunner firmware once and redo the autotune and some parameters after i opened the motor for cleaning/greasing but other than that never had any issues with my setup, the motor runs quiet and strong.
A metal gear would be somewhat loud if you can live with that.
There are some YT videos posted by a guy who tried both brass and aluminum, i think.

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