Sur-ron Adaptto

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.
User avatar
motomoto
100 W
100 W
Posts: 293
Joined: Jun 28, 2010 8:22 pm

Sur-ron Adaptto

Post by motomoto » Nov 23, 2017 12:57 pm

Just letting everyone know that I have a new Max-E controller with 10 4s 16.0 multistars that I am going to install on my Sur-ron bike.
Some friends were raving about ASI controllers but when I called the company they didn't have any 4000w or 8000w units. It finally dawned on me that the Adaptto would likely be a good choice. So now I will have 72 volts instead of 60 without the 80 amp bms limiter.
I am excited. I was told that the motor has potentially 3 times the power that it is currently putting out.
sur-ron dyno.png
sur-ron dyno.png (35.58 KiB) Viewed 1329 times

User avatar
brumbrum
10 kW
10 kW
Posts: 989
Joined: Oct 30, 2010 3:29 pm
Location: Wales U.K

Re: Sur-ron Adaptto

Post by brumbrum » Nov 23, 2017 2:26 pm

Cool, the multistar 16ah are good for 4c constant discharge so you can pull 128amps from them without any worries what so ever and even higher peaks.

litespeed
100 kW
100 kW
Posts: 1264
Joined: Aug 11, 2010 4:42 pm
Location: St. Charles, Missouri

Re: Sur-ron Adaptto

Post by litespeed » Nov 23, 2017 10:55 pm

That should wake it up some.....

Tom
I'm married so you know I'm no stranger to pain!

User avatar
motomoto
100 W
100 W
Posts: 293
Joined: Jun 28, 2010 8:22 pm

Re: Sur-ron Adaptto

Post by motomoto » Nov 24, 2017 12:26 am

That should wake it up some.....
The bike is really fun the way it is. I have been taking it to a BMX area some kids made by my house. I have a track
mapped out that I ride at 80% speed. I am getting used to the bike on dirt and I am out there by myself so I don't want
to wad it up. I have fun at 80% and I am getting in shape. 80% means I am full throttle accelerating but am not hanging
it out speed wise everywhere and on the verge of crashing. Next week I will have some videos. I bought some new riding gear
and a Go Pro 6 and also a Mavic Pro. I want to make some good videos and getting bike time now will make them better.

It is really fun with 4 hp. It handles decent and takes the rough well. I haven't done big jumps yet but that is coming.
I am annoyed with the crap the front wheel is throwing in my eyes but I should be wearing googles and haven't been.
It definitely needs a front fender.

I asked Allex what he thought about the Adaptto and he says that there hasn't been much success with mid drives. I think
that is because most mid drives freewheel. This is a direct drive setup which differs from most mids. If the motor settings
can be set up properly for this motor, it should be a dream. I have this regen braking idea that would put a load cell on the
throttle stop when you chop the throttle. I have a couple of them. 0 to 5 lbs pressure makes 1 to 4 volts off of a 5 volt input. I haven't worked with the adaptto but if I could dial in the regen to the 1 to 4 volts somehow it could be a nice
way to have a controllable braking regen.

User avatar
motomoto
100 W
100 W
Posts: 293
Joined: Jun 28, 2010 8:22 pm

Re: Sur-ron Adaptto

Post by motomoto » Dec 04, 2017 7:51 pm

20s 32 amphr.jpg
20s 32 amphr.jpg (236.92 KiB) Viewed 1124 times

SlowCo
10 kW
10 kW
Posts: 609
Joined: Jan 05, 2015 5:43 pm
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Sur-ron Adaptto

Post by SlowCo » Dec 04, 2017 8:10 pm

Hot Rod! 8)

litespeed
100 kW
100 kW
Posts: 1264
Joined: Aug 11, 2010 4:42 pm
Location: St. Charles, Missouri

Re: Sur-ron Adaptto

Post by litespeed » Dec 04, 2017 8:16 pm

That will wake it up too!

Tom
I'm married so you know I'm no stranger to pain!

User avatar
macribs
1 GW
1 GW
Posts: 3289
Joined: Jul 22, 2014 5:59 pm

Re: Sur-ron Adaptto

Post by macribs » Dec 08, 2017 4:31 pm

This I gotta see.

User avatar
madin88
10 MW
10 MW
Posts: 2483
Joined: May 27, 2013 2:02 am
Location: Austria

Re: Sur-ron Adaptto

Post by madin88 » Dec 09, 2017 6:16 am

motomoto wrote:
Nov 24, 2017 12:26 am
I asked Allex what he thought about the Adaptto and he says that there hasn't been much success with mid drives. I think
that is because most mid drives freewheel. This is a direct drive setup which differs from most mids. If the motor settings
can be set up properly for this motor, it should be a dream. I have this regen braking idea that would put a load cell on the
throttle stop when you chop the throttle. I have a couple of them. 0 to 5 lbs pressure makes 1 to 4 volts off of a 5 volt input. I haven't worked with the adaptto but if I could dial in the regen to the 1 to 4 volts somehow it could be a nice
way to have a controllable braking regen.
Whats the pole count of the Golden Motor? Adaptto can do about 60000 ERPM from what i know..
If the Hall sensors deliver a stable signal there is a good chance that it will work well.

Does the bike really have no freewheel?
nice idea with the load cell pressure regen. 1-4V would be optimal.

Aebrennan
100 W
100 W
Posts: 127
Joined: Jan 06, 2017 4:08 am

Re: Sur-ron Adaptto

Post by Aebrennan » Dec 10, 2017 6:59 am

Here is the first part of our test bikes in action more on the way

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFBLHOI ... tion=share

RemoteRoad
10 mW
10 mW
Posts: 24
Joined: Dec 24, 2017 8:00 am

Re: Sur-ron Adaptto

Post by RemoteRoad » Jan 02, 2018 8:53 pm

madin88 wrote:
Dec 09, 2017 6:16 am
motomoto wrote:
Nov 24, 2017 12:26 am
I asked Allex what he thought about the Adaptto and he says that there hasn't been much success with mid drives. I think
that is because most mid drives freewheel. This is a direct drive setup which differs from most mids. If the motor settings
can be set up properly for this motor, it should be a dream. I have this regen braking idea that would put a load cell on the
throttle stop when you chop the throttle. I have a couple of them. 0 to 5 lbs pressure makes 1 to 4 volts off of a 5 volt input. I haven't worked with the adaptto but if I could dial in the regen to the 1 to 4 volts somehow it could be a nice
way to have a controllable braking regen.
Whats the pole count of the Golden Motor? Adaptto can do about 60000 ERPM from what i know..
If the Hall sensors deliver a stable signal there is a good chance that it will work well.

Does the bike really have no freewheel?
nice idea with the load cell pressure regen. 1-4V would be optimal.
Do you see a possibility of adding a freewheel to the bike, madin?

User avatar
madin88
10 MW
10 MW
Posts: 2483
Joined: May 27, 2013 2:02 am
Location: Austria

Re: Sur-ron Adaptto

Post by madin88 » Jan 03, 2018 3:05 pm

RemoteRoad wrote:
Jan 02, 2018 8:53 pm
Do you see a possibility of adding a freewheel to the bike, madin?
This is hard to say without having the bike.
You probably want to have the freewheel in the rear hub for lowest drag. There are solutions for bicycle hub's (with thread), but the hub from the Surron has a bolt circle on both sides.
I would say: no, not without custom machined parts.

Drum
100 W
100 W
Posts: 162
Joined: Dec 29, 2013 1:20 pm
Location: Otaki New Zealand

Re: Sur-ron Adaptto

Post by Drum » Jan 03, 2018 7:21 pm

There would be a couple of disadvantages with fitting a freewheel:
-You would lose regen "braking". Depending on the type of riding you do, this may or may not be a big issue, but if you are riding up & down big hills, or accelerating / braking a lot, you would end up converting all your momentum into brake heat each time you slow down instead of putting some of the energy back into the batteries;

-When you opened the throttle after coasting, there might be a small "free" rotation of the motor before the freewheel took up and started driving. With a motor this powerful that could destroy freewheels quickly and put extra strain on the whole driveline. The is a possibility that it would also upset the controller.

Personally I like the idea of the "solid" driveline and variable regen.. thanks for the idea of using a load cell.. I have a second thumb throttle on the left to bring in the variable regen on my Kelly controller, but being able to dial in the regen by reversing the rotation of the twistgrip throttle has merits..

Also: A freewheel on the back wheel would have to be massively strong as it would be working where torque is highest. I don't know of a freewheel that is small and light enough, and able to reliably handle that torque. (If there is one, I would like to know, for possible use on a future project).

Dave

RemoteRoad
10 mW
10 mW
Posts: 24
Joined: Dec 24, 2017 8:00 am

Re: Sur-ron Adaptto

Post by RemoteRoad » Jan 03, 2018 8:40 pm

Hi Dave,

Interesting. Really just learning about bikes, making a buying decision on a strong e-bike all the more challenging till I'm up to speed.

So the Sur-Ron does accomplish battery regen on braking and coasting downhill, basically by default (a simple reversal of motor = energy generation into the battery?)? Or do you simply mean there's drivetrain resistance that will have a braking effect but not necessarily drive electrical energy back into the battery. I'd be using it in an area of dramatic and tightly arranged elevation changes.

I need to better understand freewheeling. Wondering what the difference is between simply coasting, which I assume the Sur-Ron does, vs. freewheeling. Or is a freewheel simply a device that allows coasting with peddles/bicycle drivetrain being attached (so as not to overdrive one's *leg motors*)?

Concerning the needed strength of a freewheel with a bike of ... what is this one with the 60v battery, 6kw? Isn't the Neematic mid-drive bike said to be rated at 20kw and it appears to have a fully functional bicycle drivetrain. There are also machines like the LMX, though I think they are less powerful than the Sur-Ron. (The Neematic is more of a precise fit of MTB/Cross Country Machine that I'm looking for, but the lack of availability for some time and the price difference make it infeasible.)

User avatar
recumpence
100 GW
100 GW
Posts: 5317
Joined: Apr 19, 2008 8:33 am
Location: On Earth right now. That can change at any time, though..........

Re: Sur-ron Adaptto

Post by recumpence » Jan 03, 2018 11:03 pm

I can speak from experience to a few of these questions.......

My yellow bike is a similar size and weight to the Sur-ron. It runs 24 inch tires and weighs 120 pounds and is geared for just short of 45mph on a full charge. It is very close to the spec of the Sur-ron. However, it is over 20,000 watts. On top of that, it runs a freewheel on the electric drive (and has pedals), so it is legally a bicycle (sort of).

From my experience, 20,000 watts is perfect for this size/weight bike. It gives you absolute wheelie snapping power at any time with a tiny touch of throttle, just like a Super-cross bike.

I say GO FOR IT!!! :mrgreen:

That being said, the only reason my bike has a freewheel on the electric drive is because it has pedals. On a pure dirtbike, freewheeling is almost useless. I say go with direct drive and regen. This should be a phenominal build!

Matt
1% of the world's population can think "Outside the box". The rest are firmly stuck within the box. Where are you?

User avatar
motomoto
100 W
100 W
Posts: 293
Joined: Jun 28, 2010 8:22 pm

Re: Sur-ron Adaptto

Post by motomoto » Jan 04, 2018 12:13 am

Hey Matt, What do you think about a 3 motor Astro setup for the Sur-ron? With some 100c 200c peak drag race batteries. Think it would
beat a 450 in a drag race?

RemoteRoad
10 mW
10 mW
Posts: 24
Joined: Dec 24, 2017 8:00 am

Re: Sur-ron Adaptto

Post by RemoteRoad » Jan 04, 2018 1:42 am

Matt, your bike sounds sweet. Rear hub or mid?

Yeah, I've seen criticism by a few builders on the boards of the Sur-Ron being too much to mod towards bicycle status (while it already uses many bike parts), whilst they sell bikes/bike components for far more powerful enduro frame builds, these frames often also being rather subpar for being purely powered by peddles. Could the major pricing disruption caused by the Sur-Ron be the driving concern behind some of these dissuasions, coming in at 1/2 or 1/3 the price of some of the enduro offerings?

When you say "go direct drive and regen", by that would you mean keeping it as it. Don't have an understanding yet pertaining to my "regen by default" question posed earlier. It would seem ideal to me if a bicycle drivetrain could be fitted to the opposite side from the motor drive. The "peddle generator" idea is also really cool sounding.

User avatar
recumpence
100 GW
100 GW
Posts: 5317
Joined: Apr 19, 2008 8:33 am
Location: On Earth right now. That can change at any time, though..........

Re: Sur-ron Adaptto

Post by recumpence » Jan 04, 2018 2:51 pm

motomoto wrote:
Jan 04, 2018 12:13 am
Hey Matt, What do you think about a 3 motor Astro setup for the Sur-ron? With some 100c 200c peak drag race batteries. Think it would
beat a 450 in a drag race?
I would say so. It would be waaayyyyyy over powered!
1% of the world's population can think "Outside the box". The rest are firmly stuck within the box. Where are you?

User avatar
macribs
1 GW
1 GW
Posts: 3289
Joined: Jul 22, 2014 5:59 pm

Re: Sur-ron Adaptto

Post by macribs » Jan 04, 2018 3:33 pm

RemoteRoad, heres is the yellow bike build thread. Use forum search to dig deeper into the creative world of Matt AKA recumpence.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=82936
[+] PicsYellowBikeBuild
In the pics you can see he uses 2 x Astro motor 3220 motors. They are connected via Matt's own designed drive train, with a jackshaft. He uses a left side drive for the motors and keep right side for pedals.


Image

Image
Last edited by macribs on Jan 04, 2018 4:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
recumpence
100 GW
100 GW
Posts: 5317
Joined: Apr 19, 2008 8:33 am
Location: On Earth right now. That can change at any time, though..........

Re: Sur-ron Adaptto

Post by recumpence » Jan 04, 2018 3:43 pm

Motomoto,

I would say you are going about this the right way. Upgrade the controller and batteries and hang on for a wild ride!

The Sur-ron is the best bang for the buck right now by far.

Matt
1% of the world's population can think "Outside the box". The rest are firmly stuck within the box. Where are you?

RemoteRoad
10 mW
10 mW
Posts: 24
Joined: Dec 24, 2017 8:00 am

Re: Sur-ron Adaptto

Post by RemoteRoad » Jan 04, 2018 3:57 pm

Thanks macribs.

Wow, that yellow bike is amazing! Matt's evidently quite the mechanical talent.

User avatar
motomoto
100 W
100 W
Posts: 293
Joined: Jun 28, 2010 8:22 pm

Re: Sur-ron Adaptto

Post by motomoto » Jan 06, 2018 1:37 am

I received a battery from John Metric today. I giggled like a little school girl as I opened the package. Really.

It is a 12 cell 5000mah 100c pack with a 200c peak. You can blow the whole loads in 15 seconds without the
cells even heating up!!! 20kW continuous with 40kW bursts. 3.5 lbs of battery with dual 8 gauge leads. Sweet
20 kW pack.jpg
20 kW pack.jpg (113.78 KiB) Viewed 365 times

User avatar
madin88
10 MW
10 MW
Posts: 2483
Joined: May 27, 2013 2:02 am
Location: Austria

Re: Sur-ron Adaptto

Post by madin88 » Jan 06, 2018 5:04 am

motomoto wrote:
Jan 06, 2018 1:37 am
It is a 12 cell 5000mah 100c pack with a 200c peak. You can blow the whole loads in 15 seconds without the
cells even heating up!!! 20kW continuous with 40kW bursts. 3.5 lbs of battery with dual 8 gauge leads. Sweet
Amazing facts, but i thought you settle on 20s?

User avatar
skeetab5780
1 MW
1 MW
Posts: 1882
Joined: Jun 15, 2009 10:58 pm
Location: MA
Contact:

Re: Sur-ron Adaptto

Post by skeetab5780 » Jan 06, 2018 7:43 am

How much was that freaking beast of a battery? So awesome

User avatar
motomoto
100 W
100 W
Posts: 293
Joined: Jun 28, 2010 8:22 pm

Re: Sur-ron Adaptto

Post by motomoto » Jan 07, 2018 2:49 pm

350 clams.

I am thinking 3 Astros. I have one that I got from them after whining for a year about the lack of copper in their motors. It's a 3 turn
with 50% more copper (don't tell Matt)

I have to make a case for it. Think I will finish it and test it with a CC HV 160. I have a crazy idea on a way on putting 3 together that
would fit in the Sur-ron
Last edited by motomoto on Jan 08, 2018 1:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

Post Reply