Project Dauntless - My Tanget build

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dtx
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Project Dauntless - My Tanget build

Post by dtx » Jan 11, 2018 2:48 pm

Hello and welcome to my cosy little project thread. Since the 2nd gen Tangents are here, I'm finally ready to start my second e-bike build. Right now, i'm trying to decide what parts to buy and how it all fits together. I will do my best to document my efforts here in as much detail as possible for two reasons:

1. To help others as endless sphere and the community helped me and
2. to hopefully be made aware of mistakes/dumb things i do before they become dangerous or expensive.

I'm happy for any advice, ideas, anything that might help me get my build done. Please beware that i'm in Germany, so sourcing special parts from america/Canada isn't exactly easy. Allright where do i start? Well i think the first step is describing my current build, the problems i had with it and my strategies on mitigating them with the new build.

My current bike is a 29er MTB with a BBS01 that has rougly 3.5k km on it commuting through streets, mud, rain, basically everywhere i wanted to go. While I do love riding it, here is a list of failures/problems/annoyances i've encountered with it that i want to fix in version two (i may add more to this in the future):

* No rear suspension. Nothing like getting kicked in the butt by a small curb when riding at 35 kp/h...
* Power, or lack thereof. 250W is, at no point, enough and my choice of battery can barely support 350W continous.
* Gearing, with only 250W and with a lekkie 42t chainring in the front and a 36t chainring in the back i still find hills i can't climb. Recently i blew my clutch due to this.
* Reliability of the drivetrain is meh. After many fixes i found something that holds up but i want something that does a lot less unfixable breakdowns. So far i've killed a controller, a clutch, had water damage (multiple times), had derailleurs break, etc. I definetly want to build something that's as bulletproof as possible in that regard
* 29er wheels are just to big. Especially when carrying the bike down stairs or in sharp corners. I'm eying a 27.5er
* normal tubed wheels are too succeptable to flats. Going tubeless for sure
* The battery is annoying to remove from the frame. Since im always riding with a backpack anyway, i might aswell get a backpack battery thats easy to remove
* weight: The bike is just too heavy. While driving it's not a problem but it's again a huge pain in the butt to carry down stairs etc.
* no integration of the lights into the main battery. it sucks so bad, when the lights go of while the main battery is still full.
* too wide bars. While it's nice driving with them, i just can't get them through doors/narrow gaps.
* Motor hangs down to low, giving bad clearance. Definetly want the tangent as high up as possible, likely in the frame if possible.
* hard to fix things, especially in the motor due to bafang design and general lack of tools.
* Lack of good maintenance. mostly due a lack of the right tools and lack of experience.

With that in mind, I've been planning a second bike for over a year now, calculating, weighing options, saving money etc. It has been rather clear for a while now that i want a tangent from dave. It's just too much awesomeness packed into a beautiful piece of machinery and the rest of the components will be chosen to fit the tangent. I want to build this entire bike from scratch over a period of about 4-5 month, aquiring parts and tools as necessary. This way, I hope to not only have a tangent e-bike at the end, but also every tool necessary to fix, maintain and modify it as needed. I'll probably not be able to be in the first batch of the tangent gen2s but i think my goal of getting serial -#0042 should be realistic from a timing perspective ;)

Allright so here are the main parameters for the new build

* Torque-y AF. I want the limit of climbing be the grip of the tires, not torque or motorpower.
* Speed: Actually not too much. 50kp/h on the flat with the battery (likely lipo) at ~3.5 volt/cell (so almost empty) as a top speed should suffice but i want as much acceleration as i can handle.
* Range. 30km should be fine. Looking at 1kwh in Lipo in the backpack so that should be attainable even when going uphill at a decent speed.
* Driving profile: Commuting through the urban jungle, though I've learned to stay away from big streets and take the hidden routes. I want to build a "go anywhere bike" wether it's through streets, mud, forests, grass, gravel, basically everywhere where there's remotely a path to take. I'm not looking for jumping more then a curb or a few steps at most but i will take on some serious elevations and lots of gravel path.
* Stealth: Reasonable. If you blast down without pedalling at 60 kp/H down the road there's nothing stealthy about that. But at lower speeds and powers, i think a tangent will be silent enough and when off road, away from streets, people or police i can be a hooligan without issues. Wearing a helmet, a high visibility vest and beeing considerate has helped me stay under the radar so far...
* Weight: I want to be able to carry the bike without a battery up a flight of staris with one hand.

Allright, so here's what i've been thinking:

Motor: 6KW Tangent. Why? POWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEER! Wether it's going to be a 20:1 or a 40:1 reduction is not clear for me right now. Intuitively, I'm more looking into a 40:1 variant but it will depend on the overall gearing.

Frame: The nice people over at http://chinertown.com/ have got plenty of info on getting good carbon frames from china. There are several options to chose from. I'm mostly looking into carbon because it's available at almost the same price from china as a comparable aluminium frame would be here in germany and there are a few vendors that have been deemed trustworthy by the community. It's a bit of a risk of course but with a carbon frame/carbon wheels i can get down the weight a shitload. I'm looking for something in the all-mountain to enduro range (140-160mm travel) which should be a huge upgrade from my current 110mm front shock only in my BBS build. I've yet to bottom that one out so the additional travel should be plenty, even with 140mm.

To be specific, these frames are in closer consideration, though nothing is set in stone just yet:

Ican p9 Enduro ~200 mm travel
http://www.icanbikes.com/html/MTB/27_5ER_frame/338.html

CS-336 All Mountain ~150mm travel
http://www.xmcarbonspeed.com/Productinfo.asp?f=1488

Battery: I haven't found an 18650 based Battery for this project that really hits all the marks in terms of power/C rate. It seems that the BMS is the main limiting factor and without a BMS i might as well go for multistar lipos. I've done plenty of research into safely handling them and with a diy hardcase and padding in a backpack. I have some ideas for the wiring but those can wait until the basic components have been chosen.

When the frame is chosen, most parts become obvious by necessity, the only thing i'm really struggling with is gearing for the tangent. I would love to hear your ideas given my parameters first. I think even a single speed could work with a 40:1 tangent gearbox and the comperatively low topspeed. This is the main issue in all of this i think and I definelty am open to suggestions and ideas here. I don't feel like an open gearing with a deraileur system will work for me since even my bbs01 chews gears like a fat kid in a candy store. Can't imagine a tangent beeing anything but a lot worse with that. Another option would be a rohloff IGH though the price, lack of beeing able to fix it on my own, and the weird mounting with thru-axle wheels makes it not my first choice.

Allright this has been a wall of text already. I think i'm gonna get the first round of feedback at this point, answer your questions and refine the component selection, especially the gearing question and the frame (duh!). I intend to start ordering the first parts in february, depending on dave's status and wether i can decide on the right frame for the build. Given the delivery times that are to be expected, building should start in march-april and i hope to have something driveable ready in may. I'm looking forward to the project and working with everyone here on endless-sphere. Please feel free to comment on any of my choices and suggest alternatives (except the tangent ;)) I'm happy for all the input i can get!

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Re: Project Dauntless - My Tanget build

Post by FastJohnny » Jan 11, 2018 3:54 pm

Hey, it's Cuntrover from Reddit. I'm not going to go to in-depth here, but I'll help you along the way.

The first thing you wanna do is get yourself a BEEFY bike. The 6KW Tangent even geared at 20:1 reduction will pull the rear swingarm of my Airborne Plague over to the right like 2-3 inches under power, even with me on it, and it's an American made aluminum frame. I wish I went with a DH bike with big beefy suspension linkages and pivots. As a BBS-02 rider you can't even fathom the torque at this point.

Either of those carbon bikes will probably snap a linkage or pivot under full power. You could limit the acceleration and, thereby frame flex if you want.

Weight should be better, my bike weighs 44lbs. Backpack battery is close to 11 lbs I think.

As far as lights you could run a double plug out of the battery for 52V and 12V, XT90 & XT60 maybe, and then have 2 plugs under the seat, one for the motor, one for the lights. This would give you full battery power, and eliminate the use of buck converters to bring pack voltage down to a usable level for lights. I'm not sure if it's risky to run a higher load on 3 of the parallel groups in the battery. Your other option would be to get a light that will handle 12-80V, but I've tried a few and they tend to suck.

You can run singlespeed with either a 20:1 or 40:1 and have usable power to atleast 30 mph, maybe even 35 mph.

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Re: Project Dauntless - My Tanget build

Post by dtx » Jan 11, 2018 4:06 pm

Hey man, great to have you on board!

> The first thing you wanna do is get yourself a BEEFY bike. The 6KW Tangent even geared at 20:1 reduction will pull the rear swingarm of my Airborne Plague over to the right like 2-3 inches under power, even with me on it, and it's an American made aluminum frame. I wish I went with a DH bike with big beefy suspension linkages and pivots. As a BBS-02 rider you can't even fathom the torque at this point.

Jeebus... I think i'll have to look for something a lot strong then. When people talked about flex i thought they were talking about the gears having a little bit of play under load... Thank you!

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Re: Project Dauntless - My Tanget build

Post by tangentdave » Jan 11, 2018 5:43 pm

Agree with FastJohnny about the suspension linkages, you'll want them large and probably single pivot. The motor adds as much chain tension as your full body weight so suspension designs with significant anti-bob will become stiff and ride high in the stroke under throttle. If you're going to smash around trails under throttle, the less the motor affects the suspension the more supple and reactive it'll be. If you're mainly commuting, not such a big deal (and in fact the anti-bob makes for a good ride on pavement, like having traction bars on the old muscle cars). Really, just a frame intended to be ridden hard is what's needed most- bikes intended for competition. I don't have any experience with the Chinese carbon frames so can't speak to them specifically. Carbon frames are fine though, they're strong as hell. Clevis joints on the pivots are a must.

Gearing- all the gearboxes are 20:1 now, this means 600RPM under load on the motor freewheel. You'll be able to push 6-8kW through the unit which pairs well when geared for 35-40mph. If you were to use a derailleur, 60mph is possible. You don't have to shift if you use a derailleur, just leave it in the 28-32t cog range where the chain is straight and you'll have plenty of torque and speed for almost anything (with a few climb-a-tree gears and a few race-the-cars gears on either side). If you run singlespeed, it's best if the cog is on a carrier of sorts so it doesn't dig into the freehub body. Another bonus of the derailleur is you can easily try multiple ratios to find your favorite then convert over to singlespeed.

Stealth- it's obvious when somebody is on an ebike. Don't ride it like a motorbike when you shouldn't and nobody will know. When you do motorbike it, nobody but you will hear it.


-dave
Peregrine DH/Tangent 8kW
tangentmotors.com

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Re: Project Dauntless - My Tanget build

Post by 12-C » Jan 12, 2018 12:00 am

Hi, great idea!

This is what I did.

Purchased a solid looking DH bike used! Cheaper and allows more $ to put into the bike and BATTERY

Battery: I was initially going to put it in the frame and use 18650 cells or the newer size tesla size. Again I'm so Glad that I didn't get into the whole "make your own pack" it was enough work to make the harness for the current setup. I'm using some quality LIPO from hobbyking Turnigy. The pack IR is super low and very consistent. Use high C rate. My strong recommendation is to use lots of paralleled strings so that when you whack the throttle and ask for high current you are stressing each parallel less than you would with a comparable large single pack even if it's a very high quality pack, this also helps with decreasing V ripple! The batteries I use are all hard case batteries, which is handy. I did have a big crash and landed on my back once and it was great insurance! And no BMS, they don't go out of balance but I never drain them below about 20% bottom. That being said I do charge them with balance all the time and store them in an ammunition box. I get huge range especially riding in the woods.

Copy and paste from a different thread I have replied to about similar issues.

As far as batteries go I personally run 14s lipo in a back pack. I haven't added any caps to the hv160 and monitoring the ripple even with the longish cables there is minimal ripple. I attribute this to the very high quality high C packs I have. I have 20ah total 6p. The fact that I have 6p and very high C is what is likely keeping the ripple so low and the batteries have very low ir. I did some rides why 12s it really is notably weaker. At full charge the 14s is awesome, once down to nominal charge it's still great. 12s on a full charge feels more like a14s at half capacity honestly. I would stick to 14.

gearing 40:1 , I'm currently on a 9 cassette 11-28 with 36 up front and I'm upgrading to a SRAM pg990 which solid billet for the top 5-6 cogs so that you have more mating surface between the hub and cog spine. The stock 28 is actually sheared now and free wheels under power...oops. I'm actually going to gear it even lower and go with a11-34. Will be even better on some of the steep accents I tend to do. Just keeps the motor even higher in its rpm.

Mine is the gt fury on the previous page. Dave was a real gent and custom fabbed a mount bracket to the spec I sent him. This allowed me to also attach the e13 chain guides my bike came with once I had some other components spec'd and machined. It is very robust and now acts kind of like a bash guard too. If anyone is interested I can link the cad I made, I would all also advise a few small mods for improvement...

As far as throttle, the domino that he included with was a nice pieces of kit but I struggled with riding it as a bike since it was a full length twist. I like bunny hopping, mono etc and it was just too sketchy at times when I accidentally snap the throttle. I ended up swapping to a halled half length twist from grin. It works looks a charm and allows much lower and finer throttle inputs. And since its a half twist I don't wack the throttle with curb/log jumps, bunny hops etc. Now I feel like I have the power of the motto on a flickable bicycle. Real fun!

-end copy paste

I'd go with the 40:1. In hindsight I was initially wanting the 20:1 from Dave but I'm so glad I chose the 40:1.

I would go with 26" wheels, much stronger. I read a very interesting article that I can't remember the link but it came down to; 29 is an experiment, 27.5 is a compromise and 26 is the strongest, i figure I"m already stressing everything, hopefully one less thing to worry about.

The noise of the tangent. I really don't think anyone ever notices as I come up on them, but I'm not full throttle or fast passing people either. And when I pass I tend to go slowly and stealth mode. The sound doesn't bother me.

I would stay away from the IGH, I have read that they have a very limited torque max, definitely not worth experimenting with given the price and the kind of damage the tangent could do to something that isn't up to it.
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dtx
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Re: Project Dauntless - My Tanget build

Post by dtx » Jan 12, 2018 3:47 am

Hey,

Thank you again everybody, I'll be looking into a new round of frameoptions this weekend with special attention to the pivots. Let's see what i can find!

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Re: Project Dauntless - My Tanget build

Post by Rube » Jan 12, 2018 5:49 am

Dtx, Dave, FastJohnny, thanks for posting your decision considerations. Understanding these decisions helps readers evaluate real-world consequences of bolting on a such a high torque high power system.

From my perspective of evaluating mid-drive options with experience limited to a 5kw hub, I believe frame weight is secondary to stable geometry at higher speeds, the reliability of a strong design, and greater control as 12C mentioned. Pedal input is important but easily dialed in with throttle restraint. Likewise, the weight penalty for stronger designs or higher battery capacity is compensated by the torque and power. :twisted:

Edit: keep us updated on your frame ideas, I'm in the same boat :D

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Re: Project Dauntless - My Tanget build

Post by dtx » Jan 12, 2018 7:35 am

Rube wrote:
Jan 12, 2018 5:49 am
Edit: keep us updated on your frame ideas, I'm in the same boat :D
I will! And I'd love to have you onboard aswell!

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Re: Project Dauntless - My Tanget build

Post by dtx » Jan 14, 2018 5:23 pm

Choice of Bikes, Part 1.

I must say i didn't expect Johnnys bike to flexing a lot under the power of the tangent. That made me reevaluate my choices quite a bit (and it got even more expensive ....) Ah well, If you want something thats on the edge of whats technologically possible you know what your getting yourself into right? Right? So for now I have slightly fallen in love with the canyon bikes, especially since i can visit their outlet store it's only 50 km or so from where I am. Though I am not set on buying their stuff, it seems their frames are good examples of what is on the market in terms of general design principles. I've chosen three bikes from their lineup and would like to discuss my thoughts on either and get feedback from you wether i am right or wrong and what i have to be looking for.

One thing they all seem to have in common is the use of the SRAM GXP Bottom Bracket. That is BSA threaded (NO ADAPTERS! YAY!) but I'm not sure it's tangent compatible. Here's a link from SRAM] https://www.sram.com/sram/mountain/prod ... om-bracket though i'm not sure wether this is the exact verison used. If that's compatible it would probably make everything a tad easier already.

Allright these are the available choices but they may all as well be regarded as standins for their particular category:

Downhill "Sender"

Link to Canyon.com https://www.canyon.com/en/gravity/sender/

Picture of the bike as a whole
Image

Picture of the unique (as far as i know) linkage system
Image

Pros
  • Love the futuristic Design
  • Is rated by a german manifacturer for extreme duty in the downhill/bikepark range.
  • Linkage looks beefy
  • If i'm quick i can get a good deal on a frameset. Might cost me a bit more overall then buying everything as a set but i didn't plan for more then 3k € for the full bike so buying it in pieces is a good compromise.
  • Motorposition seems okay to good.
Cons
  • May require custom mounting to still use the chainguard.
  • Seeting position not meant for normal riding.
  • Genrally beeing Downhill optimized.
  • By default, it doesn't come with a dropperpost as part of the frameset.
  • No Battery space in the triangle
Open Questions
  • Riding position. Can you even ride that like a normal bicycle? Thats my main Problem with Downhill since the angle for the saddle seems to make them almost unusable for normal riding unless standing. Could someone enlighten me here? can you adjust the Angle of the saddle mounting enough to make normal sitting on it possible?
  • Most if not all downhills use smaller 7 gears high speed cassetes. Not exactly what we are looking for here. Can I install a 10 speed/sram ex-1 group instead or will i run into problems?
Enduro "Strive"

Link to Canyon.com https://www.canyon.com/en/mtb/strive/

Picture of the bike as a whole
Image

Picture of the linkage system. This one is simmilar to ones used in many Enduro type Bikes though it allows for some on the fly shifting in to a more downhill geometry. Not something that's particularly important to me
Image

Pros
  • There's a documented build on this bike that has made the builder very happy
  • Is rated by a german manifacturer for heavy duty enduro usage.
  • Geometry is pretty much what i would look for in terms of seating angle and pedalling
  • Comes with a dropper post stock
  • Frame Battery is an option here
Cons
  • Motorposition is not satisfactory. While it's defintely OK, I would much much rather have the motor be mounted above the Bottom Bracket.
  • Availability of cheaper then usual framesets is limited and i might not get one below stock offer.
  • Someone else already did it ;)
Open Questions
  • While those links hold up? Or will it also flex a lot.
  • Could you possibly do a mounting like this? Image
Freeride/Superenduro "Torque"

Link to Canyon.com https://www.canyon.com/en/gravity/torque/

Picture of the bike as a whole
Image

Picture of the linkage system. Compared to both other options this looks rather weak, especially compared to the downhill links on the sender
Image

Pros
  • Rated for extreme duty as the sender/downhill variant
  • Option to mount the motor inside the frame, which is nice
  • Geometry is pretty much what i would look for in terms of seating angle and pedalling, decent compromise between enduro and downhill
  • Frameset is 500€ cheaper then other framesets (with no deals) and comes with a dropper post
Cons
  • It's very new so no cheap deals here
  • Linkage looks rather weak to me.
  • I don't like the design/look. It looks really oldschool to me :(
  • The whole rear is aluminium. If i spend that much on a carbon frame i want it to be full carbon not a compromise
  • No Battery space in the triangle
Open Questions
  • While those links hold up? Or will it also flex a lot.
  • Will mounting inside the triangle work?
  • The overall idea seems to be right to me for the purpose, maybe there are options that mitigate some issues i have with it.

    There is for example the propain Spindrift

    Image

    or the YT Industries CAPRA

    Image

    Alllright enough for tonight, I'd love to hear your thoughts and what i got wrong, maybe if you can answer some of my questions. I think the reasonable next step is to decide on a particular bike style (Enduro, Super-Enduro/Freeride, Downhill) based on the examples here and then decide between a few models from different manifucaturers in that particular category.

    Aain, thank you everyone for chiming in with your thougts, ideas and comments. I greatly appreciate your help in this adventure! And as always: If i'm dead wrong on something please tell me :D

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Re: Project Dauntless - My Tanget build

Post by FastJohnny » Jan 14, 2018 10:39 pm

Some good choices there. I'm exhausted at the moment. Here's the bike Dave and I were tossing around.
The GG DH
Image
Image

DH seats always tilt back like that. You can adjust them to level for ebikes though.

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Re: Project Dauntless - My Tanget build

Post by SULL3N » Jan 15, 2018 9:41 pm

Image

This is my first post on this forum. Man I love ^^^my bike^^^. Shout out to Dave@Tangent. Knolly FTW. Going 2 seasons strong now.

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Re: Project Dauntless - My Tanget build

Post by Raisedeyebrows » Jan 16, 2018 12:58 am

A bunch of guys I know have Guerilla Gravity bikes, very tough durable frames, in fact just yesterday rode with three of them. Come in aluminum only but they are wicked nice bikes that can flat get it on in the hands of a capable rider. Not the lightest frames but super tuff and built to last, the welds look real good to my eyes. If I was going to build up a state of the art FS bike with mid-drive they would be a good durable frame to use if you could work the battery placement out.
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Re: Project Dauntless - My Tanget build

Post by dtx » Jan 16, 2018 4:10 am

SULL3N wrote:
Jan 15, 2018 9:41 pm
Image

This is my first post on this forum. Man I love ^^^my bike^^^. Shout out to Dave@Tangent. Knolly FTW. Going 2 seasons strong now.
Yeah man your mounting solution for the motor is just plain epic! Doesn't the motor interfere with the rear suspension at all? It seems such a tight fit!
Raisedeyebrows wrote:
Jan 16, 2018 12:58 am
A bunch of guys I know have Guerilla Gravity bikes, very tough durable frames, in fact just yesterday rode with three of them. Come in aluminum only but they are wicked nice bikes that can flat get it on in the hands of a capable rider. Not the lightest frames but super tuff and built to last, the welds look real good to my eyes. If I was going to build up a state of the art FS bike with mid-drive they would be a good durable frame to use if you could work the battery placement out.
They look seriously tough but i haven't found them available in germany and i don't feel like importing the bike from the US with so many other options available. But the GGDH definetly looks like an awesome match for the tangent!

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Re: Project Dauntless - My Tanget build

Post by dtx » Jan 16, 2018 6:32 am

A friendly PM i got with some more Info on the Battery Usage
Mmmmm, Tangent is excellent quality and needs a bike that is worthy of it. I am currently using a Santa Cruz 5010 CC with XTR build. My Tangent kit uses the first gen. PAS system. For my local trails (tight east coast style singletrack, nothing too gnarly) it works GREAT! Rarely use the throttle on my trails and have the PAS set up at low power levels. In this manner, the motor is very silent and consumes less battery. My normal rides are anywhere from 2-3hrs in length and my 10amp/hr lipo battery rarely gets drained by more than 60%.
On full power throttle only, there is some vibration going through my frame and a little bit of frame flex as well (from the rear stays). Can't imagine what 6k watts must feel like! Hate thumb throttles, which is what my PAS kit came with. Thinking of giving this bike to my wife and getting something with just a bit more travel (150mm or so) and picking up another throttle only 3k kit from Dave. Hope this helps you.....Any specific questions, just ask.

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Re: Project Dauntless - My Tanget build

Post by tangentdave » Jan 16, 2018 12:11 pm

IMG_6252.JPG

6kW Tuesday.
Peregrine DH/Tangent 8kW
tangentmotors.com

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Re: Project Dauntless - My Tanget build

Post by dtx » Jan 16, 2018 1:11 pm

tangentdave wrote:
Jan 16, 2018 12:11 pm
6kW Tuesday.
Sometimes a picture says more then a 1000 words!

Here's a really good deal on canyons website right now for the sender. Dave, would you kindly take a look and see if anything might be incompatible here? Specifically the Bottom Bracket, it is from my understanding BSA Threaded but uses the SRAM GXP. I suspect it must be replaced but the threads are in the frame if i understand it right. Also the entire gearing. Can you replace the 7 speed cassete with a 10 speed like you did or maybe the EX1 Groupset that FastJohnny uses? Those are the really important questions. One minor aspect is the chainguide. Could you reuse it?

Image

If you can give me a go I'm going to order it ASAP before it's gone. It's hard for me to judge wether the shock and fork used here are sufficient, though i suspect they are more then "good enough", as for the brakes, I'm gonna see if they are enough for my taste and if not upgrade them aswell but i think it isn't much of gamble on them.

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Re: Project Dauntless - My Tanget build

Post by tangentdave » Jan 16, 2018 1:33 pm

That's a pretty good deal. I would generally trust the component choices (forks, brakes, shock) made by the factory, they will probably be at least satisfactory.

We will replace their crankset with ours (the BSA threads are in the frame, no adapters needed). The stock rear cassette would work but for not much you can replace it with a wider range (be sure to order a SRAM cassette so it matches the SRAM shifter and derailleur). DH bikes use a wider BB (83mm) and usually have fewer speeds in the cassette. Since the front chainring is a bit farther outboard it's more of a stretch to reach the granny gear, I'd pick up a 10speed SRAM cassette, 11-36t. Ideally you'd have a straight chainline on the gear you use the most, and I bet with a 32t front chainring you'll use the 26t or 28t cog most on the trails (30-35mph).

I can make the Tangent mounts with the ISCG tabs, you should be able to re-use the chainguide but it may need some finesse since the tabs will be at a different angle than on the frame (I can't predict what angle relative to the BB the drive unit will lay).
Peregrine DH/Tangent 8kW
tangentmotors.com

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Re: Project Dauntless - My Tanget build

Post by dtx » Jan 16, 2018 1:48 pm

tangentdave wrote:
Jan 16, 2018 1:33 pm
We will replace their crankset with ours (the BSA threads are in the frame, no adapters needed). The stock rear cassette would work but for not much you can replace it with a wider range (be sure to order a SRAM cassette so it matches the SRAM shifter and derailleur). DH bikes use a wider BB (83mm) and usually have fewer speeds in the cassette. Since the front chainring is a bit farther outboard it's more of a stretch to reach the granny gear, I'd pick up a 10speed SRAM cassette, 11-36t. Ideally you'd have a straight chainline on the gear you use the most, and I bet with a 32t front chainring you'll use the 26t or 28t cog most on the trails (30-35mph).
Wicked, i think this is happening :shock: :D :shock: :D

I'm gonna write canyon a mail, maybe they can give me a bit of a deal for the components i don't need. Since the derailleur is 7 Speed aswell i will ask them to remove basically the entire drivetrain. Even if they don't go for that deal it's still about the same price as the 2018 Frame (the same) + Shock (slightly better) alone so I'm gonna go for it either way
tangentdave wrote:
Jan 16, 2018 1:33 pm
I can make the Tangent mounts with the ISCG tabs, you should be able to re-use the chainguide but it may need some finesse since the tabs will be at a different angle than on the frame (I can't predict what angle relative to the BB the drive unit will lay).
I'm gonna order the chainguard in any case and when the frame is here, i can take all the necessary measurements for the mounting of the motor.

Thank you all very much, especially to dave. I'm gonna get my wisdom teeth removed tommorow but as soon as i'm sober enough from the medication i'm gonna talk to canyon and order the bike. Dave, as soon as the bank account has recharged i'm gonna buy your kit for this bike, even though I can't afford it and the battery at the same time :roll:

I can barely wait!

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Re: Project Dauntless - My Tanget build

Post by Mugenski » Jan 16, 2018 4:39 pm

Looks like you're going to have a killer bike!

The kit will definitely give you plenty of hill climbing torque. I haven't found a hill I can't climb yet. I occasionally push 8kw through the gen1 and have no issues with the motor temps. The additional ESC heatsink Dave found should be a nice addition if you want to thrash it like a motorcycle.

I'd keep a full cassette on the bike until you've ridden it a bit and found the gearing you enjoy most. Initially I thought I would go with a 3 or 5 speed cassette however after riding the kit for a few hundred KM I decided against it and will be keeping a full range, just make sure to get a twist shifter. It's nice to have the small cogs if you want to limit power and pedal (cycle analyst cruise setting is great for that even without a PAS kit). I often find myself enjoying pedaling along at 500-1000w, it also keeps suspicions down in busy areas.

I'm happy with my hobby lipo purchase however their are benefits to both batteries. Ease of use goes to 18650s however raw power output goes to the hobby lipos. If you're looking to find the grip limit of your tires in hill climbs then I'd say go lipo, they will handle the amps better with less sag. The gen2 kit will shed heat much easier too. The overall power of your kit will be limited by the amps your battery can push. You can always draw less but not more.

Before winter hit I found myself riding my shortest gearing (32-32) a lot because I like the acceleration and hill climbing. Over the winter I decided to switch to a 11-40t cassette and add 2s for 14s. Keep the same speed with even more torque. Shortest 3 gears (40/34/28t) will be my moto gears for 40-60km/h. My 3 tall gears will be for pedaling along at lower power levels. Mid range (24/21/18t) will satisfy highspeed runs and be good for general cruising/ghost pedaling. Ride it and find your preference. Dave has made it even easier to play with ratios on the new kit with the freewheel options too.
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Re: Project Dauntless - My Tanget build

Post by dtx » Jan 16, 2018 5:57 pm

Mugenski wrote:
Jan 16, 2018 4:39 pm
I'd keep a full cassette on the bike until you've ridden it a bit and found the gearing you enjoy most. Initially I thought I would go with a 3 or 5 speed cassette however after riding the kit for a few hundred KM I decided against it and will be keeping a full range, just make sure to get a twist shifter. It's nice to have the small cogs if you want to limit power and pedal (cycle analyst cruise setting is great for that even without a PAS kit). I often find myself enjoying pedaling along at 500-1000w, it also keeps suspicions down in busy areas.
Yeah gearing is still going to require some tinkering i think. I haven't really decided yet anyway what I'll do, from what dave wrote here it seems basic 10 speed cassetes (full steel and rather cheap, the same i have one my bbs01 system) could do the trick. I wouldn't be opposed to that if they do the job and do it cheaply. As for the stealthyness...yeah I was thinking along those lines i don't like PAS anyway but a throttle mode with low powered should be good for stealthyness. And the bike should be all black what could be more stealthy? :lol:
Mugenski wrote:
Jan 16, 2018 4:39 pm
I'm happy with my hobby lipo purchase however their are benefits to both batteries. Ease of use goes to 18650s however raw power output goes to the hobby lipos. If you're looking to find the grip limit of your tires in hill climbs then I'd say go lipo, they will handle the amps better with less sag.
Thinking along those lines aswell. I just want a convenient way to (balance) charge a 14s system so i may invest in a BMS but i think i'll cross that bridge when i come to it. Which Lipos did you buy? Hobbyking Multistar? I'm really torn wether i should get these bang for the buck hobbykings or go for much more expensive ones.

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Re: Project Dauntless - My Tanget build

Post by Mugenski » Jan 17, 2018 2:40 am

dtx wrote:
Jan 16, 2018 5:57 pm
Mugenski wrote:
Jan 16, 2018 4:39 pm
I'm happy with my hobby lipo purchase however their are benefits to both batteries. Ease of use goes to 18650s however raw power output goes to the hobby lipos. If you're looking to find the grip limit of your tires in hill climbs then I'd say go lipo, they will handle the amps better with less sag.
Thinking along those lines aswell. I just want a convenient way to (balance) charge a 14s system so i may invest in a BMS but i think i'll cross that bridge when i come to it. Which Lipos did you buy? Hobbyking Multistar? I'm really torn wether i should get these bang for the buck hobbykings or go for much more expensive ones.
The quality and cost of lipos will be a balance depending on how large/heavy of a pack you can tolerate and what you're willing to spend. If you want a smaller lightweight pack in the 10-15Ah range then higher grade cells are probably a good idea. 14s 31Ah pack is about 22 lbs with 25Ah usable @ 80% DoD. When I burst 8kw I am only drawing half of the packs max continuous discharge. For me that isn't stressing budget cells too hard and they don't get hot. Mind you the multistar and tattu packs (5.2Ah cells in my case) aren't a high discharge chemistry but they are fine if you are conservative with the C rating. If I had a 15Ah or smaller I'd consider some better grade cells. Issue is you don't get real world C ratings from hobby battery suppliers and are kind of shooting from the hip in that respect.

I went cheap and made a harness for many packs and found the best dollar/Ah in 6s packs. The packs I used came from tattu however they were listed at 38 dollars at the time. Hobbykings 5200mah pack are super cheap now. In hindsight I wish I used a BMS for charging/monitoring and just bypass the discharge side of it. It would have solved my issue with only having 6s balance chargers and saved me a few connections when charging. I did put a speedict neptune lite on order so I can monitor my cells via bluetooth however the neptune 15 (or an aliexpress board) would have been a better choice, giving me the option to charge the pack as well. In fact I may see if I can change to the full BMS board now that I think about it, pricey but it looks fairly clean and easy to use with a proper manual.
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Re: Project Dauntless - My Tanget build

Post by 12-C » Jan 17, 2018 11:03 pm

I would personally stay away from multi unit pivots and linkages. I would stay with a swing arm that has a single large strong pivot. The lateral torque from a motor will in short order destroy the multi unit linkages, it's not the same stresses that a DH rig sees with a rider even in the worst of conditions. Plus there are more pivots to maintain and repair/rebuild when it comes time, that's extra $$ and time to replace.

It's really uncharted territory with motors of this power/torque, but if we mimic what motorcycles look like I'm assuming we are playing it safest....

NICE bikes though!

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Re: Project Dauntless - My Tanget build

Post by huckthat » Jan 18, 2018 12:11 am

I've been thinking quite a bit about this same question, although granted, with a bit more bias to how the bike descends and pedals in extreme trail riding situations, rather than urban settings.

A bit of background, I've been riding a Tangent eZerode for a year now, and it's super fun for more moto style riding... but I want something I can sit on and pedal a bit more, to stretch the life of the battery out a bit, and just be more comfortable in the seated position for longer periods of time. Here's my eZerode all dirty and snowy:

Image

For my all-moutain epic ride trail crusher, I have the following criteria:
  • drive unit inside the FT. I will smash it off if it's exposed. Plus it looks fugly hanging off the underside.
  • stiff and strong rear-ends... don't want all that torque noodling my ride.
  • all the usual stuff, slack HA, steep STA, roomy cockpit (~440mm reach on a medium), stealth dropper seatpost routing, water-bottle cage bosses, clearance for 2.5" tires, progressive shock rate, neutral suspension/drivetrain influence, yada...
  • important Threaded GXP BB! I don't want to deal with PF BB adapters, which unfortunately eliminates some nice options like the Commencal Meta AM v4.2 Cannodale Jekyll or the Rocky Mountain Altitude
All sick bikes with dialed geometry and nice stout builds.. but F*cken press-fit sh*t!

But there's some hope, in these bikes. In fact, I am planning to go with a Santa Cruz Nomad CC There are some deals to be had out there on these bikes, like this one https://www.pinkbike.com/buysell/2310464/ which I'm getting local (no shipping) for $2600
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You might also search for Nukeproof Mega AM for a reasonably well priced, strong, alloy option
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OR... the sexy Guerrilla Gravity Megatrail
Image

We'll see how the Nomad's VPP holds up to the loads, I know SCB are generally pretty good about warranties and the like.

Good luck with your projects folks. Dave's Tangent Drive is incredible, and I always look forward to going out and riding mine... I leave you with this little teaser of what I like to do with mine...

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Re: Project Dauntless - My Tanget build

Post by 12-C » Jan 18, 2018 12:41 am

Batteries:

I used these for cost and bang.

Image
They are rated 20C which is probably BS, but with 14s4P setup each P string will only see 25-30A so at most 5-6C so they hardly break a sweat... They also balance and stay true. I bought 12 4s packs and 4 2s packs, all which were mint and hold a charge and discharge evenly.

They are hard case so a bit safer, they have handled a big crash fine.

I charge with this, it's super quick! But requires some CPU power supplies to charge at full 40A

Image

Gearing:

I have chewed the stock 9 speed cogs from the freehub. I'm upgrading to this

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This way there is a huge interface between the freehub and the carrier and no more damaged cogs/freehub. This way I can keep the gearing and reliability. I have the rear hub torn apart and looks like the stock pawls are in good conditions still.

The next thing I imagine upgrading to is a sprag clutch freehub they look really impressive. Onyx

Image
http://forums.mtbr.com/wheels-tires/ony ... 70959.html

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Re: Project Dauntless - My Tanget build

Post by huckthat » Jan 18, 2018 12:50 am

SULL3N wrote:
Jan 15, 2018 9:41 pm
Image

This is my first post on this forum. Man I love ^^^my bike^^^. Shout out to Dave@Tangent. Knolly FTW. Going 2 seasons strong now.
That's a tight build bro! ENVE wheels... Damn! Did you see Knolly have a gone with a super wide rear-end for their new 29er
https://www.pinkbike.com/news/knolly-mo ... trail.html
Looks like it would easily house a Tangent back there, and be super solid!

Image

Good bikes them Knollys... my S. African mate Dave swears by 'em... Noel's a good dude too
Last edited by huckthat on Jan 18, 2018 12:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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