OpenEMoto

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.
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trazor   10 W

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OpenEMoto

Post by trazor » Jan 26 2018 4:46pm

I want to show my latest creation:

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An important highlight is that i'm releasing all source files for the build: https://github.com/eroldan/OpenEMoto
The project is made on Autodesk Inventor.

What is missing now is a guide of the build process. Writing one is a big task. Let's see if people is interested. I can answer here for now. About the build process I can say that I've built this bike with:
  • TIG welder
  • Angle grinder
  • Press drill
  • Car type hidraulic bottle jack (2 ton)
  • Lot of mild steel
  • Drill bits and cup saws
  • Printer+sticker sheets
  • Small hand tools
  • Few dollars for a lathe operator
  • 3d printer (to build the welding jig)

A waterjet or CNC plasma cutter probably can accelerate the build by a big factor. I've cut the plates by angle grinder, and some are tricky.

As you can see, i've tried to design in a minimalist way to easy build and reduce weight. I think it is impossible to get rid of any part without taking some function. With my 720Wh battery, the bike is weighting 40Kg.

The design goes toward a trials bike (style that I enjoy). The seat is low, and that makes dismounting very easy. Probably a new seat mount can be done to make it more "enduro".

Does anyone want to build it?

I will post videos soon. My riding mate & camera man is on vacation.
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Dogboy1200   100 W

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Re: OpenEMoto

Post by Dogboy1200 » Jan 27 2018 8:44am

I love it!!!! I think the swing arm mounted motor makes a lot of sense. Of course a small increase in unsprung weight but you can't beat the simplicity. The use of all straight tubing is fantastic and the use of 3D printed parts to jig it up is genius. Also, in the picture, where the frame is jigged up, it looks like there are some white pieces that marked how cope the ends of the tubes. Are these 3D printed or flattened in CAD then printed on paper and then wrapped around the tube? The design and execution in my opinion are top notch and the finished product is a great looking bike! Well done!
2007 Transition Preston FR BBS02 https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=73635 Now HD https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... &start=225
2006 KTM 250 XC-W
2005 crf50 stunt bike
Oset 12.5 (son's bike)
PW50 (son's bike)
Mongoose Kids Fat Bike BBS02 https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =6&t=84133 https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... e#p1232034

Dogboy1200   100 W

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Re: OpenEMoto

Post by Dogboy1200 » Jan 27 2018 8:46am

What rear hub is that? OSET? LMX?
2007 Transition Preston FR BBS02 https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=73635 Now HD https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... &start=225
2006 KTM 250 XC-W
2005 crf50 stunt bike
Oset 12.5 (son's bike)
PW50 (son's bike)
Mongoose Kids Fat Bike BBS02 https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =6&t=84133 https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... e#p1232034

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trazor   10 W

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Re: OpenEMoto

Post by trazor » Jan 27 2018 12:20pm

Dogboy1200 wrote:
Jan 27 2018 8:44am
I love it!!!! I think the swing arm mounted motor makes a lot of sense. Of course a small increase in unsprung weight but you can't beat the simplicity. The use of all straight tubing is fantastic and the use of 3D printed parts to jig it up is genius. Also, in the picture, where the frame is jigged up, it looks like there are some white pieces that marked how cope the ends of the tubes. Are these 3D printed or flattened in CAD then printed on paper and then wrapped around the tube? The design and execution in my opinion are top notch and the finished product is a great looking bike! Well done!
Thanks! I really appreciate your kind words. I've put a lot of nights (and days) on this project and sometimes I felt a bit alone :)

You are right, the "white pieces" are prints made with my inkjet printer on sticker paper. For example https://github.com/eroldan/OpenEMoto/bl ... uts/B1.pdf

Here is the drawing that names tubes: https://github.com/eroldan/OpenEMoto/bl ... nsions.dwg

and here is the exact placement distances (you need to "index" the tube with a straight line and use that reference to apply the sticker) https://github.com/eroldan/OpenEMoto/bl ... ioning.pdf

For the tube notch shapes, I exported surfaces and flattened using this "Papercraft" software http://www.tamasoft.co.jp/pepakura-en/

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trazor   10 W

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Re: OpenEMoto

Post by trazor » Jan 27 2018 12:57pm

Dogboy1200 wrote:
Jan 27 2018 8:46am
What rear hub is that? OSET? LMX?

Ecellent question! The rear hub has taken a lot of thinking time because I can't afford to machine a hub or buy the expensive ones (and make my design around them, not the other way).

The hubs are tweaked aluminum old school threaded hubs: https://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-Bike-Bicycl ... 3f911e1012

An adapter from threaded to 6 holes is needed, and I've made one using a 12T sprocket (only the threaded piece) and welding a 6 hole plate ( https://github.com/eroldan/OpenEMoto/bl ... rPlate.dwg )
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The hub ball bearing is replaced with sealed bearings, and a spacer is placed between. Then, this part is used as a spacer to bring the disc near the caliper: https://www.amazon.com/ADEDS-Bicycle-Fr ... dapter+hub

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Here is another option using front hub, with excellent results too:
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There is a 90% complete "Bill of Materials" here (open with Open or Libreoffice): https://github.com/eroldan/OpenEMoto/bl ... er/BOM.ods
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litespeed   100 kW

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Re: OpenEMoto

Post by litespeed » Jan 28 2018 10:50am

Excellent job and execution! Looking forward to your videos.

Thanks for building and sharing your ideas.

Tom
I'm married so you know I'm no stranger to pain!

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efMX Trials Electric Freeride   100 kW

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Re: OpenEMoto

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » Jan 28 2018 2:13pm

really nice design and craftsmanship..

but I don't think a thread on motor sprocket will last very long under high motor power.. the rear sprocket needs to be bolted to the rear hub not threaded on with bicycle parts not designed for motor power.. the cost of a quality rear hub is not that much compared to the cost of a rear wheel rebuild/ redesign.. what is the cost of the battery, motor and controller; these are likely the higher cost components of an electric bike build..

Anyways, can't wait to see it completed and video in action.. best luck:)

efMX
some ride & sk8 videos:
metacafe.com/channels/NATAS666DAMIEN
http://www.youtube.com/natas666damien
i have nothing for sale.. :)

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trazor   10 W

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Re: OpenEMoto

Post by trazor » Jan 28 2018 7:33pm

efMX Trials Electric Freeride wrote:
Jan 28 2018 2:13pm
really nice design and craftsmanship..

but I don't think a thread on motor sprocket will last very long under high motor power.. the rear sprocket needs to be bolted to the rear hub not threaded on with bicycle parts not designed for motor power.. the cost of a quality rear hub is not that much compared to the cost of a rear wheel rebuild/ redesign.. what is the cost of the battery, motor and controller; these are likely the higher cost components of an electric bike build..

Anyways, can't wait to see it completed and video in action.. best luck:)

efMX
I agree with you that the threaded connection seems weak. But i've some data, for now, that looks promising:

I've used a steel hub thread for two months, without breaks. (https://endless-sphere.com/forums/downl ... ?id=224977)

Then, i've tried to unscrew the adapter from the steel hub and required enormous amount of leverage to do it. Suceeded and then screwed the adapter again and had a failure in 2 hours. Seems that the threads are deformed after the high torque and don't hold if deformed in the opposite way. So I learnt the lesson: never unscrew these parts.

Then, replaced the broken threaded hub and re-assembled and rode for three months without breaks. Shot this video: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=91653

Now i'm riding the aluminum hub used in OpenEMoto and is holding up. Time will tell.

What are the options? Oset sells hubs for 69 dollars, but the measures are not published. They don't seem to be thru axle type, and no information if they have sealed bearings or not (if they use sealed bearings it is trivial to convert to thru axle moto style)

The LMX hub looks good, but at 140 euro + shipping to Uruguay, it is a bit expensive for my budget.

Any other option?

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efMX Trials Electric Freeride   100 kW

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Re: OpenEMoto

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » Jan 29 2018 12:01pm

for mid drive rear hub options look for similar mid drive bike manufacturers then contact them for spare parts availability, specs and pricing..

examples would be : LMX, Sur ron, oset, kuberg, Mammoth, Mrazek, SEV, lightning rods, motoped, etc.. or maybe a dual disc hub.. :idea:
trazor wrote:
Jan 28 2018 7:33pm
efMX Trials Electric Freeride wrote:
Jan 28 2018 2:13pm
really nice design and craftsmanship..

but I don't think a thread on motor sprocket will last very long under high motor power.. the rear sprocket needs to be bolted to the rear hub not threaded on with bicycle parts not designed for motor power.. the cost of a quality rear hub is not that much compared to the cost of a rear wheel rebuild/ redesign.. what is the cost of the battery, motor and controller; these are likely the higher cost components of an electric bike build..

Anyways, can't wait to see it completed and video in action.. best luck:)

efMX
I agree with you that the threaded connection seems weak. But i've some data, for now, that looks promising:

I've used a steel hub thread for two months, without breaks. (https://endless-sphere.com/forums/downl ... ?id=224977)

Then, i've tried to unscrew the adapter from the steel hub and required enormous amount of leverage to do it. Suceeded and then screwed the adapter again and had a failure in 2 hours. Seems that the threads are deformed after the high torque and don't hold if deformed in the opposite way. So I learnt the lesson: never unscrew these parts.

Then, replaced the broken threaded hub and re-assembled and rode for three months without breaks. Shot this video: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=91653

Now i'm riding the aluminum hub used in OpenEMoto and is holding up. Time will tell.

What are the options? Oset sells hubs for 69 dollars, but the measures are not published. They don't seem to be thru axle type, and no information if they have sealed bearings or not (if they use sealed bearings it is trivial to convert to thru axle moto style)

The LMX hub looks good, but at 140 euro + shipping to Uruguay, it is a bit expensive for my budget.

Any other option?
Last edited by efMX Trials Electric Freeride on Jan 29 2018 1:54pm, edited 1 time in total.
some ride & sk8 videos:
metacafe.com/channels/NATAS666DAMIEN
http://www.youtube.com/natas666damien
i have nothing for sale.. :)

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fechter   100 GW

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Re: OpenEMoto

Post by fechter » Jan 29 2018 12:27pm

Nice.

What motor are you using?
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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efMX Trials Electric Freeride   100 kW

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Re: OpenEMoto

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » Jan 29 2018 1:21pm

since you are in south america maybe try contacting ecocycle.moto for a rear hub option?



facebook.com/Moto10.Colombia/
some ride & sk8 videos:
metacafe.com/channels/NATAS666DAMIEN
http://www.youtube.com/natas666damien
i have nothing for sale.. :)

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trazor   10 W

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Re: OpenEMoto

Post by trazor » Jan 29 2018 4:19pm

fechter wrote:
Jan 29 2018 12:27pm
Nice.

What motor are you using?
Thanks.
Motor is the "big block" that sells lightningrod user. It used to be listed here http://lightning-rods10.mybigcommerce.c ... al/motors/ , but you can contact user directly.

If you are curious of the source of other parts, check the BOM: https://github.com/eroldan/OpenEMoto/bl ... er/BOM.ods

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trazor   10 W

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Re: OpenEMoto

Post by trazor » Jan 29 2018 4:53pm

I've a new video but isn't something cool. I had a crash and broke my Marzocchi 380.

Check this topic https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =2&t=92618

The crash was big, but only impacts with the floor. Still my fork left bottle is bent in some way, and the stanchion can't slide. I feel that DH stuff is very expensive and not so strong. Should I go to pit bike forks? They are 1 1/8 compatible? recommended brands? Other ideas are welcome.

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efMX Trials Electric Freeride   100 kW

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Re: OpenEMoto

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » Jan 30 2018 12:14pm

trazor wrote:
Jan 29 2018 4:53pm
I've a new video but isn't something cool. I had a crash and broke my Marzocchi 380.l.p.

Check this topic https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =2&t=92618

The crash was big, but only impacts with the floor. Still my fork left bottle is bent in some way, and the stanchion can't slide. I feel that DH stuff is very expensive and not so strong. Should I go to pit bike forks? They are 1 1/8 compatible? recommended brands? Other ideas are welcome.
sorry to hear about your crash and bike damage..

you may want to look into a DNM front suspension fork, more reasonable price and pretty beefy.. many people on here are using them for feedback from other riders.. another fork to consider would be the new RST, used on LMX and Sur ron.. most pitbike forks will not be compatible because they are shorter length designed for small diameter pibike wheels and would require modification to the bike head tube diameter or custom made headset steering bearing set.. also check into fast ace forks used on the Sur ron and early model zero electric motorcycles.. best luck, let us know how it turns out..
some ride & sk8 videos:
metacafe.com/channels/NATAS666DAMIEN
http://www.youtube.com/natas666damien
i have nothing for sale.. :)

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minde28383   1 kW

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Re: OpenEMoto

Post by minde28383 » Feb 24 2018 2:57am

There is pit bike forks the same length as bicycle double crown forks.
They are not too heavy.
Double crown bicycle fork 3,2kg - 4,5kg, length ~740mm.

DNM pit bike fork is 6,2kg; you can straight put 17'' pit bike wheel and pit bike brakes. Length - 735mm (some sources say 750mm)

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minde28383   1 kW

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Re: OpenEMoto

Post by minde28383 » Feb 24 2018 3:04am

in EU they ask 70 pounds. Which is even worse.
Finding rear hub is a problem. Adapting bicycle is flimsy and not sufficient for the application.

You put music over you clip. How is noise?
Are Both rims front pit bike rims?

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minde28383   1 kW

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Re: OpenEMoto

Post by minde28383 » Feb 24 2018 3:13am

I will build similarly. Can't decide about the motor.
Don't like chain noise.
Have the option to use 9kg, 21cm length, 120A battery /400A phase motor but I think it's too big for similar bike.

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minde28383   1 kW

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Re: OpenEMoto

Post by minde28383 » Feb 24 2018 3:16am

If rear hub fails why don't you get alum pit bike hub.
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minde28383   1 kW

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Re: OpenEMoto

Post by minde28383 » Feb 24 2018 3:38am

would you write your front and rear sprocket tooth number and speed you reach with your ebike. Also controller settings, batt and phase amps.
Did you ride hub before?

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trazor   10 W

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Re: OpenEMoto

Post by trazor » Feb 24 2018 2:21pm

minde28383 wrote:
Feb 24 2018 2:57am
There is pit bike forks the same length as bicycle double crown forks.
They are not too heavy.
Double crown bicycle fork 3,2kg - 4,5kg, length ~740mm.

DNM pit bike fork is 6,2kg; you can straight put 17'' pit bike wheel and pit bike brakes. Length - 735mm (some sources say 750mm)
I'm open to try those pit bike forks. Do you have links?


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trazor   10 W

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Re: OpenEMoto

Post by trazor » Feb 24 2018 2:26pm

minde28383 wrote:
Feb 24 2018 3:16am
If rear hub fails why don't you get alum pit bike hub.
I whould love to get on of those. Do you have links to where to buy?

The latest version of my rear hubs are not failing, probably 100+ hours of use.

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minde28383   1 kW

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Re: OpenEMoto

Post by minde28383 » Feb 24 2018 2:30pm

Aliexpress few sellers sells them, but try your local shops also as it might be cheaper to buy locally than to get it from CN.

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trazor   10 W

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Re: OpenEMoto

Post by trazor » Feb 24 2018 2:39pm

minde28383 wrote:
Feb 24 2018 3:38am
would you write your front and rear sprocket tooth number and speed you reach with your ebike. Also controller settings, batt and phase amps.
Did you ride hub before?
With the "big block" motor at 72v, with 12t sprocket and 92t drive, I get 55Km/h. The torque is "a lot".
I use a Kelly KBS 80AMP with all settings at "maximum" :)

Altough not the same frame, the transmission is the same and sounds like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YO6QAL7AyU&t=112s

I ride a MXU3k hubbie too. If a hub sounds 1 and an MX dirtbike sounds 100, I would say that my bike sounds 10. My chain bike does not bother anybody, even if I pass at 1 meter.

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minde28383   1 kW

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Re: OpenEMoto

Post by minde28383 » Feb 24 2018 3:34pm

If you want cheaper than DNM pit bike fork but without air check out ''Volt'' (only metal springs in both legs), there are V1 and V2; v2 superior. There are even 770mm version which is even longer by few cm than most bicycle two crown forks. It does not have longer travel, only tubes are little bit longer. There are similarly good other pit bike forks for similar price range but I'm familiar with my mentioned ones specifically; check weight before buying as not all sellers specify as it does not matter so much for gas machines; I would say it's not worth if its heavier than 7kg for ebike;

But there is the reason why DNM pit bike fork costs three to four times than Volt pit bike fork. It is good fork.
The same good is FastAce pit bike fork; get whichever; both DNM and FastAce are very good.

Regarding bicycle DNM fork be aware that it is good fork but it lets inside dust and if you ride in dusty environment it will be affected sooner (needs service) than other some high end forks (which are more expensive). I don't know how it is actually relevant in real life... but experienced people are mentioning it.
I got DNM bicycle fork for 325eu shipped from CN.
You can get pit bike DNM for the same price if you really need that strength.

Be aware. Newest DNM bicycle fork has air in both legs, older version one leg has air only in one leg, other leg has metal spring; few hundred grams weight penalty; I prefer the older version.

I don't worry that bicycle fork will break with my style of riding. What I worry is bicycle brakes; rotors are too thin and overall bicycle brakes are flimsy unless it is very high end brakes and still they are not enough at speeds over 70km/h.

Going with pit bike light quality pit bike front (rim tyre caliper rotor house fork) you are looking at additional maybe ~5kg penalty.


Off topic.
I heard one person made HTD M8 rear pulley out of composite material, 125 teeth. Can't ask him as he is Ukranian. If some who reads this are aware how it is done or have examples of those who have done it share it here plz or point where it is discussed.

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