BBSHD- the final answer to "legal" ebikes

Hi folks, OK, I've got 900 miles on my BBSHD and it's all too good to be true. Plenty of power up steep hills, and the very necessary option of "throttle only", something that store bought ebikes can't compete with. It's a sad commentary that the genius notion of an electric bike has to be denigrated by a whole industry that can only deliver an over priced and under powered product. A friend of mine just bought a $3500 famous name brand ebike that can't make it up a hill to where she lives! She rode mine, and feels really burned! My advice is this- go illegal! I mean, do you really think it's in your best interest to play the game just so a misguided industry can make a ton of money for their shareholders?

doubledipsoon said:

Hi folks, OK, I've got 900 miles on my BBSHD and it's all too good to be true. Plenty of power up steep hills, and the very necessary option of "throttle only", something that store bought ebikes can't compete with. It's a sad commentary that the genius notion of an electric bike has to be denigrated by a whole industry that can only deliver an over priced and under powered product.

Click to expand...

You can get plenty of commerical ebikes that will go to 2500 watt and >30mph. It's not the industry.

One of the main reasons the manufacturers of e-bikes offer underpowered systems is the legislation in the various countries where they are manufactured and sold, that restricts the maximum power allowed. The manufacturers have to offer bikes that are legal, so not all the blame lies with them.

Part of the cost of an e-bike is in the frame and components, as well as the motor and batteries. When you buy a complete brand new e-bike you are buying a frame, wheels, forks, brakes etc as well as the electrical components, and the price will reflect (hopefully anyway) the quality of these components. Higher quality components should give the owner a more enjoyable riding experience and should last longer, so that has to be factored in.
Also, part of the cost of any new bike is an allowance for warranty claims.. in a way, a bit like an insurance premium.. you pay a bit more, knowing that the bike shop and manufacturer will support you if the bike breaks down or any work is needed in the first year (or more?) of ownership.
I would blame the bike shop who sold your friend the bike for not asking her how steep the hills were where she rode, or suggesting that she test ride it in her neighborhood before buying, rather than the blaming the manufacturer. That bike she bought would probably be fine for someone living in Holland for example..
Has she spoken to the shop about it? Possibly they would let her test ride other bikes and if she found one she was happy with they would do an exchange without much cost penalty.

Having said all of that, overall I agree that the combination of legislation and market forces has resulted in a large number of rather anemic e-bikes. The option of aftermarket kits added to existing bikes can produce very useful and enjoyable bikes at a reasonable cost, if you have the skills to do the work yourself and wear any problems yourself.

Thanks for the replies, but, in the final analysis, the legislation regulating their power and speed would stifle any real progress of alternative devices that can compete with a gasoline driven car or motorcycle. The only rational conclusion is to take matters into your own hands, and, in this case, chuck the law and do your own thing. Sometimes civil disobedience pays off handsomely, not only in cash, but in peace of mind. I don't know about anyone else out there, but I'm not going to wait around until the system says "Do it our way", dig? Besides, how else can an over priced and under powered vehicle survive other than by ripping off an unsuspecting public. I'm sure famous ebike manufacturures are more than willing to cash in on it! My friend found out the hard way.-"Sorry, no refunds, but you can trade it in on another more expensive model that "might" make it up the hill". No thanks, Specialized, I'm going strictly illegal!" Besides, it's a gas!

I think what the industry has been missing is the opportunity to make bikes that confirm to legal limits while having much higher maximum capabilities. As an example, take the original Segway. The motors were capable of delivering 5kW, but the thing was electronically limited to 12mph. But that meant it had a huge surplus of torque for balancing and climbing. It works well and feels good, but isn't fast. How much better is than than a bike which is fast, but doesn't work well or feel good? Because the latter is often what you get when you convert a bike designed for human power into a superhuman powered e-bike.

A 750W bike designed like the Segway would be awesome. Have motors and batteries capable of multi-kW output, but restrict the actual force*speed output to 750W-- but not less than that-- for most of the power/speed curve. Clamp road speed to 20mph under motor power. Then the bike only has to be built for 20mph, but acceleration and climbing can be much stronger than a bike with an unrestricted peak power of 750W. You can yield 750W at really low speed, which means leaping away from a start, or confidently grinding up staircase-steep slopes. And it's legal, and it meshes reasonably well with other bicycle traffic.

Modest speed means the bike can be safe and easy to handle without having to rely on motor vehicle style brakes or suspension.

I think only OEMs have the engineering chops and control over all elements of their product to produce a bike that meets the above description on more than a one-off basis. Even comprehensive and astute programming of a Cycle Analyst only gets us partway there, because it has no means of measuring actual power output.

Chalo, the industry has missed lots of opportunities to do what needs to be done. The only real option for the SMART individual is to let the uninformed masses buy the grossly over rated ebikes by all the famous name brands that CONFORM to the laws, and then secretly do the REAL thing, all behind their backs. (There's that word again) I believe Eric from Luna Cycles got it right when he wrote that article bad mouthing the electric bike industry- (Who gives a #%@* about your legal electric bike?")......Don't get me wrong- I hope the electric bike scene NEVER takes off in this country- it'll allow people like me to remain under the radar of no license, no registration, no insurance, no problem, while blasting around at 28 mph, all behind the scenes. I mean, I'm going on my 650th 14 mile round trip in a little over 5 years of no driving at all! Remember, China has 250,000,000 electric bikes, and the good ol' USA has under 300,000- it's happening some place else. The real bottom line is that Specialized &Co. don't want to go up against the business as usual BS that has blocked real ebikes from joining the mainstream. And then there's the John and Jeane America that still think ebikes are for weekends at the park. uh, oh, you got me goin' again- but it's all the truth, right?

Just under 4 years ago Specialized had an " Open House " event, In Morgan Hill, where you could tour their wind tunnel, view the new models of that year talk to people in the business and ...
Test Ride their Turbo hub motor electric bike.
( I am not in the Bike Business so that event was much appreciated by me, I wish they would do it again )

In the previously two years before that I test road every electric bike from sellers/bike shops that was being sold from San Jose up to Redwood City.
All those commercial e-bikes were expensive and had pathetic performance, or should I say, No performance .

So now to the Test Ride on the Hub motor Turbo just under 4 years ago.

Having hills around the Specialized HQ I decided to put the , what is now the older version Turbo , to a real test, I road up some local hills .
It was the Best Commercial E-Bike I had ridden , it performed better and went faster than all the others. ( It did have the electronics tweaked to bypass the low power European Rules and was now within the American 750 watt and faster speed allowed.

However then and now as well , they are way over my budget.
And there were no used ones available at that time that were under $ 2,400 Used,
So
I did my own conversion .
At that time there were allot of problems with the BBS01 and BBSO2,
So
I went with the Mac hub motor, and am quite happy with it.
I must say though that the Specialized Turbo that had the electronics adjusted to better performance spec's is every bit as good a bike as my Mac Build. and Cleaner Looking as well
My Mac would probably make it up your friends hill, it is the 6T version, and the 12T version of the Mac rear hub motor would work for sure.
Now in regards to that bike shop, and a 3,500 Specialized E-Bike.

The Turbo Vado 2,0 is $ 2, 700 and the Turbo Vado 3.0 is $ 3, 200 so that must be the one ? as well as living in a high tax state.
It is the fault of the bike shop to not sell her the newer , Mid-Drive , Version of the Turbo, I think it is called a Turbo Levo .
There is a Video Review of the Newer , Mid-Drive Turbo Levo that is done by the young guy that does most all the bike reviews , ( electricbikereview.com)
In that video you can clearly see that the newer Mid-Drive Turbo Levo will make it up any hill.
I know the area where that test video was done and those are very steep hills.
So really the Fault is mostly likely with the Bike Shop that sold her the wrong bike in the first place .
I get to see Specialized bikes every day I am out on the Road riding my bike, and what I see is some of the best bikes around, their Performance Road Bikes are just incredible even at the $ 2k $ 2.5k price range .
it does however cost money for R & D , testing , etc,
then factor in the fact that all the Specialized ... E-Bikes are designed in Switzerland, that is one of the most expensive Counties in the World so that adds allot of cost to one of their E-Bikes.
And when you want a Swiss Watch or something else from Switzerland, you are going to have to pay a premium for it.
The Fit and Finish of Their E-Bikes are far better that what you or I can do with our DIY Conversions.
Had your friend gotten the right bike in the first place ( The Mid-Drive Turbo Levo which is $ 4,500 at my local bike shop ) your friend would have been quite happy, and would have been happier in the long run than your BBSHD, as it is cleaner looking, will go over taller logs and rocks, and the Turbo Levo will have a much better resale value as well. ( A much better / higher Resale Value than a DIY conversion )
So in the Long Run the Turbo Levo FSR Fattie 6 / 29 ( it is really a + bike 2.8 inch tires, not really a fat bike ) It Would/Will be a better bike.

doubledipsoon said:

Chalo, the industry has missed lots of opportunities to do what needs to be done. The only real option for the SMART individual is to let the uninformed masses buy the grossly over rated ebikes by all the famous name brands that CONFORM to the laws, and then secretly do the REAL thing, all behind their backs. (There's that word again) I believe Eric from Luna Cycles got it right when he wrote that article bad mouthing the electric bike industry- (Who gives a #%@* about your legal electric bike?")......Don't get me wrong- I hope the electric bike scene NEVER takes off in this country- it'll allow people like me to remain under the radar of no license, no registration, no insurance, no problem, while blasting around at 28 mph, all behind the scenes. I mean, I'm going on my 650th 14 mile round trip in a little over 5 years of no driving at all! Remember, China has 250,000,000 electric bikes, and the good ol' USA has under 300,000- it's happening some place else. The real bottom line is that Specialized &Co. don't want to go up against the business as usual BS that has blocked real ebikes from joining the mainstream. And then there's the John and Jeane America that still think ebikes are for weekends at the park. uh, oh, you got me goin' again- but it's all the truth, right?

Click to expand...

Well it's not realistic to hand my mother in law a 3000 watt full suspension bike, expect her to ride it out on the streets and survive past the first 24 hours, that goes for like 90% of American consumers as well. What is the percentage of Americans who own Motocross Bikes or Performance Sport Motorcycles? That right there is your demographic of the ones who have the skill set to operate a high powered Ebike safely, or even one that is capable of above 20 mph for that matter.

Therefore Specialized, Haibike and a handful of other companies have engineered bikes that the average person can manage to operate safely, made them reasonably light so they're not like wrestling a bear setting them into a bike rack or if a person has to change a flat tire.

In case you didn't know this, bikes are a bit different than 4 wheeled automobiles in that if a person ends up in a situation on a bike the result is falling off and usually crashing on a persons body, which invariably involves some level of personal injury. With an Automobile a person is contained inside what resembles a safety cage which helps to prevent injury during a crash at either high or low speed. I highly suspect that is why major bike companies such as Specialized and others are not building and promoting selling truely powerful electric bicycles to the public enmass. Eric Luna may be attempting to get high powered bikes out to a lot more people but I hope he is careful about it and has a background in working on bikes that allows him to personally determine if the bikes are safe to ride as well as educating buyers of "high powered ebikes" of their inherent dangers.

I know KTM makes some nice high powered electric bikes, they have no pedals and they call them Motocross Bikes and expect buyers to possess appropriate skill set to operate one, just like their gas bikes of similar power ratings. They also make ones that do have pedals which are more akin to the ebikes Specialized and others are producing, ones persons who ride bicycles can generally operate safely.

I know KTM makes some nice high powered electric bikes, they have no pedals and they call them Motocross Bikes and expect buyers to possess appropriate skill set to operate one

Click to expand...

anyone can operate one
Not every one can use the bike to at its full potential
first know your limits before finding those of the bike

Raisedeyebrows, yeah, I agree- most people if handed a moderately powered ebike would probably kill themselves within a month. I mean, 4400 people die PER DAY in auto accidents globally, mostly human error induced. I'm sure electric bikes + humans would produce fatality rates too, but not like a 65 mph crash in a "safe" car. It's all about creating transportation that makes more sense- from being able to climb a hill to not relying on a 3000 lbs machine so your mother in law can feel safe getting to Walmart to buy cheap Chinese goods made in dehumanizing sweat shops. You see, it's all very complicated, unpredictable, and unanticipated, and very easy to go off topic! .........I was merely saying that a middrive 25 mph ebike with a 48v 1000w motor aint never going to be legal, and so I hope Mr. and Mrs. Public have fun wearing themselves out peddling up a steep hill in pedal-assist 9, just so they can feel "safe and protected". Besides, do you really think Specialized and Co.is concerned about our safety? I mean, was Toyota or Ford ever really concerned about millions dying in their cars?

Automakers have staked out the legal territory so that they don't bear legal liability under normal circumstances, even though their products are inherently dangerous. Bicycle manufacturers have no such established protection, and occasionally get sued into oblivion even when the only fault was with the end user. In such an environment, only fly-by-night operators will get into the business of producing e-bikes that don't conform to anybody's legal definitions.

Segway was well financed, so they simply bought an appropriate legal category on a state-by-state basis. But their product was unique and patented, and the laws were crafted to fit only their product. Specialized isn't going to throw enough money to push fast e-bike legislation that benefits their competitors even more than themselves.