New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

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eyebyesickle   10 kW

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by eyebyesickle » Jun 06 2018 4:30pm

Ah ok, I think you probably have the 17a version.

To clarify, I am not trying to run another wire out, just want to see the pinout, to see if I can fab a programming cable to hook up to the display such as with the BBS series... that was I don't have to open any to program... because that is a tad bit of an extra chore!

Thanks for your work and reports on this motor. I love getting new tech, and messing with it

fantasy2   10 W

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by fantasy2 » Jun 06 2018 4:46pm

17 Amp? Could be right. That's the feedback I get from the bar on the display.

I do get what you mean, but there are only 8 wires in the cable and they are all occupied. When I google bafang programming cables, they use the Rx/Tx of the display to communicate with the controller and change settings. I was under the impression that the Lingbei would work the same. If this is not the case and you really need to use the STM programming interface(internally this is a separate cable), then you need 2 extra wires to run the reset and SWIM signal through(and running a long reset cable is not a good idea!).

Anyway, my supplier sent me a programming cable so we'll find out soon enough.

Go encourage Lingbei to build in programming over display UART please :wink: :| Otherwise we'll have work to do :lol:

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eyebyesickle   10 kW

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by eyebyesickle » Jun 06 2018 5:53pm

Bah, I'm afraid you're right... Yeah the programming cable is internal, but LingBei will make it external if asked... However this is not the best solution for me... An extra dangling wire is no good, especially for my OCD... Seems your right... The program cable is same STlinkV2 like the TSDZ2... That's why I wanted to see the pinout map, but it seems the needed wires are not available within the display connector etc...

So to decide... Open every motor, or have the cables on the outside.... I really don't want them on the outside though, especially not with that 4 pin connector it has....

Hmmmmm

DolphLundgren   10 mW

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by DolphLundgren » Jun 07 2018 1:19am

I was wondering if the size of the rotor (diameter, widht) is smaller or bigger compared to a BBS02.

DolphLundgren   10 mW

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by DolphLundgren » Jun 07 2018 1:25am

It looks like it has a good amount of copper. Maybe more than BBS02 (from what I remember)

Uturn   1 W

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by Uturn » Jun 07 2018 1:53am

The axle seems to be a157mm versus 150mm of TDSZ2, a bit wider - slightliy more Q factor.
How about the cadence? The TDSZ restricts to 70rpm or so, too low for many. Is the Lingbei better here?

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by casainho » Jun 07 2018 4:02am

fantasy2 wrote:
Jun 06 2018 3:30pm
Got the hex dump of the microcontroller attached for anyone feeling like disassembling it and taking a look :)
For ARM, I would use GCC objdump.
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBikes: TSDZ2 mid drive motor, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by fantasy2 » Jun 08 2018 2:37am

eyebyesickle wrote:
Jun 06 2018 5:53pm
So to decide... Open every motor, or have the cables on the outside.... I really don't want them on the outside though, especially not with that 4 pin connector it has....

Hmmmmm
I think that the factory should be informed and requested to make a 10 or 12 pin 1to4 cable so we can reprogram.
For now I'm thinking about running a wire outside myself for development.
DolphLundgren wrote:
Jun 07 2018 1:19am
I was wondering if the size of the rotor (diameter, widht) is smaller or bigger compared to a BBS02.
Not sure. I put the motor back together already so can't measure. I think it's the same.
Uturn wrote:
Jun 07 2018 1:53am
The axle seems to be a157mm versus 150mm of TDSZ2, a bit wider - slightliy more Q factor.
How about the cadence? The TDSZ restricts to 70rpm or so, too low for many. Is the Lingbei better here?
I think the spec said 120rpm as max.
casainho wrote:
Jun 07 2018 4:02am
fantasy2 wrote:
Jun 06 2018 3:30pm
Got the hex dump of the microcontroller attached for anyone feeling like disassembling it and taking a look :)
For ARM, I would use GCC objdump.
Thanks! If you're curious about how this motor works then it would be appreciated if you could disassemble it.
Otherwise I'll have to install and dig into it, will take some time.

Would be very nice if we could have a general firmware that can be compiled for both motors using different compile settings.


My contact is going to the factory tomorrow to discuss customization by the end user. They see it as a very important item and as they will discuss it with the engineers face-to-face, maybe things go faster.

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by casainho » Jun 08 2018 3:27am

fantasy2 wrote:
Jun 08 2018 2:37am
casainho wrote:
Jun 07 2018 4:02am
fantasy2 wrote:
Jun 06 2018 3:30pm
Got the hex dump of the microcontroller attached for anyone feeling like disassembling it and taking a look :)
For ARM, I would use GCC objdump.
Thanks! If you're curious about how this motor works then it would be appreciated if you could disassemble it.
Otherwise I'll have to install and dig into it, will take some time.
I decided to go with TSZD2 and I did already lot of investments and because of that I will not switch soon. I really hope TSDZ2 will be on the market for at least next 5 years - and sure, others will be on the market as well.

The OpenSource firmware is currently developed for KT motors controllers (mainly for hub motors) and TSDZ2 motor controller (for mid driver motors). I think this already covers a good range of needs from users.

I wish there was more developers and we could have more options as OpenSource firmwares and tecnhical knowledge but unfortunately that is not the reality.
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBikes: TSDZ2 mid drive motor, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

fantasy2   10 W

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by fantasy2 » Jun 08 2018 3:37am

Oh I totally understand, don't get me wrong. Was just thinking that maybe information on how Lingbei does it could help improve the open source firmware in general.

I think there is place on the market for both motors. Their pricing is a bit different and TSDZ2 is more easily available. A general firmware would be nice though. It would allow more users and developers to join. No need to switch. Adapting the open source firmware by another user would show how much appreciation there is for it being open source! However I still think that the mechanical robustness of the lingbei is better. Who knows TongSheng will ever release a V3 of their motor with improvements. :)

Uturn   1 W

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by Uturn » Jun 09 2018 1:53am

any hints on how soon Ligbei will update their firmware?
Would be great if that torque sensing percentage became adjustable, as, after your decription, it does not seem to contribute much quality, and without working torque sensing the Lingbei is just a BBS clone. For nice working torqe sensing features the TDSZ2 seems more advanced, plus it's a little more compact (150mm wide versus 158mm wide) plus it takes any kind of Chainwheels with it's standard spider.

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stancecoke   100 kW

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by stancecoke » Jun 09 2018 6:17am

fantasy2 wrote:
Jun 08 2018 3:37am
Who knows TongSheng will ever release a V3 of their motor with improvements. :)
The TSDZ3 is already available...


Image

regards
stancecoke

AWD   100 W

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by AWD » Jun 09 2018 8:32am

The 3 looks like an integrated motor to me. Word we have had from our supplier is a revamp of the kit type TSDZ2 and haven't heard differently.

We got our shipment of LB01's yesterday and got one on a bike right away. Installation was a snap.

Ride around the block confirms it is very quiet which is good. The torque sensor feels more to me like an enhanced cadence sensor in that it doesn't react to increase in pressure on the pedals as the TSDZ2 does but is more predictable and smooth than a cadence sensor. Perhaps programming will unlock it's potential, time will tell.

Stock display is fine, has a USB port and reads out voltage but a few v's off according to the CA that was on the test bike. 900w peak @ 48v however according to the CA. Used some of our Dmountz and cleaned up the bars also.
unnamed-2.jpg
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What sticks out to me is where the wires exit the casing could be vulnerable if the motor is turned up to the down tube. Our test bike has one of the funky lower down tubes and so the motor has to hang low which means it has less ground clearance than the TS previously on the bike. The pic below illustrates the motor in about what would be the most it could rotate upwards to the down tube.
unnamed-1.jpg
unnamed-1.jpg (60 KiB) Viewed 2693 times
Definitely feels solid and I think there is going to be a segment of the kit market that can benefit from the LB01.

AF7JA   100 W

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by AF7JA » Jun 09 2018 6:29pm

This motor has me interested. However, I have a question, and I am looking for general opinions about its suitability for my purpose.

Question: does the display provide an estimated wattage in use?
Reason, on a long ride I was very concerned with keeping the power draw below, or equal to, the amount that my solar panels were providing, at about 350W.

Suitability question: On my run from Kansas to Utah I used a BBS02. I was satisfied with the power; however, on steep grades (above 8%) I was adding a lot of input to keep the motor using as little power as possible. The BBS02 has the irritating problem that the more I put in, the less it put in; so I had to bump up the power level to keep it providing a constant 350W.

The other problem I had was when staring. Because the Bafang used a rotation sensor, I had to make a full rotation before the motor would start assisting. On steep inclines that was very hard to do.

As I understand this unit, once I start pressing on the pedal, even if I have made very little actual movement, the motor will kick in, is that correct?

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by casainho » Jun 09 2018 6:38pm

AF7JA wrote:
Jun 09 2018 6:29pm
This motor has me interested. However, I have a question, and I am looking for general opinions about its suitability for my purpose.

Question: does the display provide an estimated wattage in use?
Reason, on a long ride I was very concerned with keeping the power draw below, or equal to, the amount that my solar panels were providing, at about 350W.

Suitability question: On my run from Kansas to Utah I used a BBS02. I was satisfied with the power; however, on steep grades (above 8%) I was adding a lot of input to keep the motor using as little power as possible. The BBS02 has the irritating problem that the more I put in, the less it put in; so I had to bump up the power level to keep it providing a constant 350W.

The other problem I had was when staring. Because the Bafang used a rotation sensor, I had to make a full rotation before the motor would start assisting. On steep inclines that was very hard to do.

As I understand this unit, once I start pressing on the pedal, even if I have made very little actual movement, the motor will kick in, is that correct?
You should look at LCD3 for TSDZ2, that shows this information:
- motor electric power (watts)
- rider human power measured on pedals (watts)
- motor/battery current (amps)
- trip total in Watts/hour

Also I am developing OpenSource firmware for TSDZ2 and will be possible to define the torque sensor and PAS sensibility. Will also be possible to define the max power assist level in watts OR in amps.

About the pressing on the pedal, see this video I recorded about the reading of force sensor on the pedals (for TSDZ2 but should be similar to LB1:
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBikes: TSDZ2 mid drive motor, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

AF7JA   100 W

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by AF7JA » Jun 09 2018 6:50pm

Thanks for that video, it did answer my question about getting moving from a dead stop.

I had no motor trouble with the BBS02 on my 1K mi ride, which included crossing the Rockies. The only changes I made was to open the BBS02 and add moly grease to the gears.

Do you feel that the unit is similar enough to expect to be able to make that same run (just in the other direction)?

To help answer the question of "why don't you just do what you did last time?" The trike I idd the last run on was stolen. That has me redoing a lot of my work and is an opportunity to make changes to what I did.

Because I am using a trike, will this unit use the same extension cables that the BBS02 does, in order to connect to things that are further than on a conventional bike? last time I soldered my own extensions, then I felt like an idiot for doing that when I found that Luna Cycles sells extensions for the connecting cables.

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by AWD » Jun 09 2018 8:53pm

The LB01 sure is similar to a BBS02 to my eye. Word on the net is that it was designed by former Bafang engineers.

I don't think the TSDZ2 torque sensor and the LB01 act at all the same. Neither has instant engagement and that is where a throttle comes in handy that you can use for that purpose while you get the cranks going enough to activate the torque sensor. I would wager to say that the LB01 takes a bit more stroke than the TS before it kicks in. Both have throttle ability.

The cable to the display is not overly long which for most purposes is fine. Not sure if the Luna extension cables will work with the LB01. I'll check as we have a BBS02 to compare it with next time I'm at the shop.

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by fantasy2 » Jun 11 2018 4:39am

stancecoke wrote:
Jun 09 2018 6:17am
fantasy2 wrote:
Jun 08 2018 3:37am
Who knows TongSheng will ever release a V3 of their motor with improvements. :)
The TSDZ3 is already available...
That's not going to work with existing bikes, unless you like welding.
AF7JA wrote:
Jun 09 2018 6:29pm
This motor has me interested. However, I have a question, and I am looking for general opinions about its suitability for my purpose.

Question: does the display provide an estimated wattage in use?
Reason, on a long ride I was very concerned with keeping the power draw below, or equal to, the amount that my solar panels were providing, at about 350W.
Yes, it does with a bar graph. Each segment is 2 Amp. PAS level 1 is only one segment. PAS level 2 is I think 1 to 3 segments(3 segments = 2A*3*48V = 300Watt).
Suitability question: On my run from Kansas to Utah I used a BBS02. I was satisfied with the power; however, on steep grades (above 8%) I was adding a lot of input to keep the motor using as little power as possible. The BBS02 has the irritating problem that the more I put in, the less it put in; so I had to bump up the power level to keep it providing a constant 350W.
I do not experience this with this motor. The more power I put in, the more power the motor puts in until you reach the max power/speed for the PAS level. It is as AWD describes, 'advanced cadence' for now.
The other problem I had was when staring. Because the Bafang used a rotation sensor, I had to make a full rotation before the motor would start assisting. On steep inclines that was very hard to do.

As I understand this unit, once I start pressing on the pedal, even if I have made very little actual movement, the motor will kick in, is that correct?
I think you need something like a 30 degree rotation of the pedal to get it kick in. Only torque does not start the motor.
AWD wrote:
Jun 09 2018 8:32am
We got our shipment of LB01's yesterday and got one on a bike right away. Installation was a snap.

Ride around the block confirms it is very quiet which is good. The torque sensor feels more to me like an enhanced cadence sensor in that it doesn't react to increase in pressure on the pedals as the TSDZ2 does but is more predictable and smooth than a cadence sensor. Perhaps programming will unlock it's potential, time will tell.
My feelings exactly. Just got notified that the factory is currently changing the firmware in the motor to get a different torque sensitivity balance. They said they will need a few weeks and an updated version will be shared with suppliers the next month.
Stock display is fine, has a USB port and reads out voltage but a few v's off according to the CA that was on the test bike. 900w peak @ 48v however according to the CA. Used some of our Dmountz and cleaned up the bars also.
Your display is different from mine. What does it show?
Definitely feels solid and I think there is going to be a segment of the kit market that can benefit from the LB01.
It does feel solid and what makes me happy the most is how cooperative they are. They are now updating the firmware based on our feedback and I have also seen some hardware improvements as well. On the pictures I got it looks like the magnets got taller(which could increase efficiency) and they improved the hall sensor mounting. They'll send me the updated software as soon as it is released for testing.

I got told that they are not going to allow customers to change some of the settings like motor voltage and current to avoid warranty issues and damage to the motor, which makes sense. I'm going to wait for the improved firmware and then decide if I'm going to continue with open source firmware(unless someone donates me a (broken) controller, I would have to buy another motor to tear down the controller and map all the wires and IC's used).

maitilupas   100 W

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by maitilupas » Jun 17 2018 1:53pm

Hey Fantasy:

is this still the same motor: - > https://nl.aliexpress.com/item/Okfeet-g ... 322cFHP70H

now it says 80 nm instead of 90nm

also looks a bit different no?
if i order from them do they really find a way to avoid customs in NL ?
thanks in advance

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by Drum » Jun 17 2018 2:47pm

Hi maitilupas,
That okfeet ad you linked to shows the Tongsheng motor not the Lingbei. I think the link to the Lingbei motor was on the first page of this thread.

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by maitilupas » Jun 17 2018 2:58pm

thanks Drum!! i was blind with this one

fantasy2   10 W

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by fantasy2 » Jun 17 2018 3:10pm

Yep, that's the tongsheng. It's a fine motor! But not a lingbei.

Just contact them about customs. They're happy to help you. Yes, they have a free tax free route.

atomohodez   1 mW

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by atomohodez » Jun 17 2018 3:43pm

Hello! I wonder if this motor will work with the battery 14S 58.8V?

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by AWD » Jun 17 2018 9:47pm

Although it may change in the future for now it is only 48v and 36v compatible with the supplied controller. 900w peak @ 48v on a CA3.

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by maitilupas » Jun 18 2018 12:18am

atomohodez wrote:
Jun 17 2018 3:43pm
Hello! I wonder if this motor will work with the battery 14S 58.8V?
Yes should be because 14s is a 48V battery , you saying 58.8 that is 4.2v X 14
Usually calculate 3.6V per cent that's their middle charge and how they are measured

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