New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

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dojrude   10 mW

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by dojrude » Jul 24 2018 11:53pm

It's all gone a bit quiet in here.
I was hoping to see lots of positive updates with the new hardware being received, but if anything it seems to be the opposite.
Are we to assume it's still got issues?

81forest   100 W

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by 81forest » Jul 25 2018 1:16am

Same here, waiting for an update! Probably should just buy one so lingbei knows I’m serious :idea:

dojrude   10 mW

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by dojrude » Jul 25 2018 4:37am

81forest wrote:
Jul 25 2018 1:16am
Same here, waiting for an update! Probably should just buy one so lingbei knows I’m serious :idea:
I've had that thought also, but don't want to end up with something that is shortly superseded and can't be upgraded easily.
The newer model with improved torque assist, a firmware update plug and higher amps seriously fits the bill.

Would be great if there was a firmware tool like there is for the bafang models, but being torque assist I don't see it being as relevant if set up properly from day 1, unless we do get to change the percentages between cadence and torque manually. Being able to switch between torque and cadence on different levels would also be a plus for those times that you're out of energy and can't face heavy pedalling any more and can just lightly spin the pedals - but that could also be done with a throttle.

Fingers crossed that the new models come out at the start of August and not the end, but knowing how these things usually work, we'll be lucky to see it available before xmas if they're like any other manufacturer by the time the design and software is finalised, manufactured and has filtered through to retailers for sale.

emr   1 mW

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by emr » Jul 29 2018 3:31am

Does anybody have details of the chainline on this motor. Is it less or more than the 51mm of the TSDZ2?

Drum   100 W

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by Drum » Jul 29 2018 4:45am

Hi All,
I have just discovered that one of the New Zealand designed "Smartmotion" electric mountainbikes has a bottom bracket giving both torque and cadence signals, and the control system can be switched easily between torque sensing and cadence sensing at the display.
If the Lingbei controller / display had this feature it would offer a solution for different riders and different situations.

Alternatively, a "sliding scale" variation between 100% torque sensing and 100% cadence would be even better. This could be simply a number on the display relating to to the % torque sensing, with the implication that the balance would be cadence, so:
100 = full torque sensor, no cadence;
50 = half torque, half cadence;
0 = fully cadence, no torque sensor.

Then any rider could adjust the figure until they found a balance that suited them, and it could be varied quickly for different terrain or when you got tired.

Both signals are said to be available already in the Lingbei, so it would just be a matter of programming the controller and display to suit.

I am a mechanical engineer not a programmer, but I doubt that this would be difficult to implement.

What do you think.. I could e-mail this suggestion to Lingbei, but I want to open it to discussion here first as a reality check.

Comments welcomed.
Dave

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by 81forest » Jul 29 2018 8:03am

Sounds like a cool feature. Personally I’m only interested in the torque assist, but I can see how the TA could be nicely dialed in using the sliding scale you described.

Really looking forward to hearing about Lingbei’s responses and the next firmware batch.

ScooterMan101   1 MW

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by ScooterMan101 » Jul 29 2018 10:22am

Torque sensing systems do , Not , work when you get older and / or are younger and have inflammation/arthritis in one or both knees, or even recovering from knee strain/injury.

So your idea is a very valid feature to have on Any e-bike . All E-Bikes should have such a programmable feature.
As well as
More levels of assist, the usual 5 just do not work much for someone with the above described knee problem/injuries .

We need E-Bikes with 20 to 30 levels of assist !
Last edited by ScooterMan101 on Jul 29 2018 1:12pm, edited 1 time in total.
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eyebyesickle   10 kW

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by eyebyesickle » Jul 29 2018 12:14pm

So we are all waiting on the new programming from LingBei, but I really would like to know the capabilities of the torque sensing mechanism itself. We need to know the minimum and maximum measurable values, as well as the increments/differentials/steps measurable between the two. If the torque sensor isn't capable of finer increments then different programming would seem futile in a way... There is only so much software tweaking you can do with limited hardware... So what are the actually torwue sensing hardware capabilities?

I'm looking into it....

PS - I still like the motor, and I think it will replace any BBS02 build I make going forward, as it's cheaper and I like the performance. Also the C6 display has the coolest little animation when you turn it on, hahahaha - it's the little things
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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by ScooterMan101 » Jul 29 2018 1:13pm

eye,

What parts of that motor can have some metal machined off for lighter total weight ?

What parts of that motor can be made from milled/machined aluminium billet for even more weight savings ?
My first conversion ...

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 1#p1077497

It's 2018 already, lets get some real , improved e-bike / e-velomobile / e-motorcycle designs .

dojrude   10 mW

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by dojrude » Jul 30 2018 1:33am

ScooterMan101 wrote:
Jul 29 2018 1:13pm
eye,

What parts of that motor can have some metal machined off for lighter total weight ?

What parts of that motor can be made from milled/machined aluminium billet for even more weight savings ?
An ebike is never going to be light. Why are you worried about an extra kilo or two as the additional power outweighs the additional weight.

I've had confirmation today that the updated version is ready to be ordered. It apparently has an external plug for programming (by a re-seller, not an end user) and runs at 20A. Just waiting for confirmation on what comes with it and I may place an order.

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by ScooterMan101 » Aug 07 2018 1:46am

1 to 2 kilo's makes a big difference when you have to

1) move the bike through many doors, hallways in the apartment complex and through around many corners and doors to where the bike is stored .
2 ) makes a big difference when you have to lift it up onto a bike rack. car and / or bus rack and you have a back injury .
3) anytime you go up a steep hill, even 1 kilo more weight makes a big difference,
4) when loosing about as much body weight a parson can and still be healthy, it is then time to take off unnecessary weight off the bike.
5 ) go and look at the video's from this years Eurobike Convention , you will see complete e-bikes that weigh only ... 17-18 kilo's !!

So you see, you are wrong . A e- bike can be made to be light weight,
This has just been proven by some of the bikes at this years Eurobike !

Now , What parts can be machined to loose weight ?
What parts of this new small in power but heavy motor can be made with lighter weight materials ?
The cover / case ?
A new Bottom Bracket ?

dojrude wrote:
Jul 30 2018 1:33am

What parts of that motor can have some metal machined off for lighter total weight ?

What parts of that motor can be made from milled/machined aluminium billet for even more weight savings ?
An ebike is never going to be light. Why are you worried about an extra kilo or two as the additional power outweighs the additional weight.

[/quote]
My first conversion ...

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 1#p1077497

It's 2018 already, lets get some real , improved e-bike / e-velomobile / e-motorcycle designs .

Uturn   10 mW

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by Uturn » Aug 07 2018 8:55am

Now , what parts can be machined to loose weight?
> Install a TSDZ2 instead, it weighs less, 3.6kgs I think. (a smaller motor with more reduction)
> Install a torque sensing bottom bracket, a torque capable controller, and a hub motor: Much less weight.
A small hub motor is around 2.00 kgs, add the electronics and you'll see 2.2 kgs (minus your old hub).

ScooterMan101   1 MW

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by ScooterMan101 » Aug 07 2018 1:34pm

I already have a small 2.2 kg hub motor, the Q100c CST , But it does not go/ get me up the steep hills and the Mountains I want to go up.
The new Lingbei, motor is supposed to be a improvement over the TSDZ2 and BBSxx series motors,
so
Until we get more RC motor Mid-Drives this motor looks like the Lingbei will work,
or will it ?
will a different company soon come out with a lighter weight mid-drive motor to buy ?

Shaving some weight off this motor is the best option for me .

if they ( Lingbei ) do not produce a lighter weight version of it then people will soon forget about it and buy the the next mid-drive that does weigh 3kg or under .

So it is in the interest of the company to make this motor lighter in weight !
or ...
We will soon be seeing a motor , from a different company, that more , people will want to buy.
You have to be improving all the time to stay in business in Today's World .

Uturn wrote:
Aug 07 2018 8:55am
Now , what parts can be machined to loose weight?
> Install a TSDZ2 instead, it weighs less, 3.6kgs I think. (a smaller motor with more reduction)
> Install a torque sensing bottom bracket, a torque capable controller, and a hub motor: Much less weight.
A small hub motor is around 2.00 kgs, add the electronics and you'll see 2.2 kgs (minus your old hub).
My first conversion ...

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 1#p1077497

It's 2018 already, lets get some real , improved e-bike / e-velomobile / e-motorcycle designs .

casainho   100 MW

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by casainho » Aug 07 2018 2:33pm

Uturn wrote:
Aug 07 2018 8:55am
Now , what parts can be machined to loose weight?
> Install a TSDZ2 instead, it weighs less, 3.6kgs I think. (a smaller motor with more reduction)
Our flexible OpenSource firmware for TSDZ2 unlocks the max voltage and current values of TSDZ2 (user can configure them in realtime on the LCD!!), meaning it can now be optimized for strong power. And soon we will add a temperature sensor to the motor, were we can read temperature value on LCD and motor controller will reduce the current when motor get to hot, meaning we will be able to push strong current to motor for small periods of time (beyond the 18 amps limit).
Also, seems that an online shop may soon start selling TSDZ2 with our flexible OpenSource firmware.
Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers (TSDZ2 and KT) and LCDs (KT-LCD3 and Bafang 850C color LCD).

If you like my work, you can consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

devo1223   100 W

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by devo1223 » Aug 07 2018 3:50pm

awesome! Are you saying you can set it for more than 18amps? Max voltage is 52v? If I can buy the TSDZ2 with all those features and your firmware already loaded I think its going to be my next purchase. I've been following this thread for awhile and I'm still not sure the lingbei has a functional torque sensor. Has anyone gotten there's to work?
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ScooterMan101   1 MW

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by ScooterMan101 » Aug 07 2018 4:15pm

This is good news, I have been waiting for temp sensors that roll back or cut off the power and or current when the motor is about to overheat . That is done with a couple of hub motors now, but I already have a couple of hub motors, I am wanting now to buy the best and lightest mid-drive for the money spent.

What does the TSDZ2 really weigh ? With or without crank arms ?

Can it use a Throttle ?

Can it have several PAS and/or Torque Settings for those of us with Arthritis in our knees that can , not , put much power into the crank arms . ( torque )
so 3 to 5 times the current PAS/Torque assist modes. ( 15-25 or so )

Will it be able to use a 16s pack ? ( by also using less amps when using 16s )
in other words.
Will it be able to use higher than 14s ( 52 volt pack ) like a 16s pack for days of riding on mostly flat ground and wanting to go faster, but then put on a 14s or 12 s pack for days of climbing up Mountains ?
Such a system/display, would have advantages over all the others !
And the one that I would want to buy most.
casainho wrote:
Aug 07 2018 2:33pm
Uturn wrote:
Aug 07 2018 8:55am
Now , what parts can be machined to loose weight?
> Install a TSDZ2 instead, it weighs less, 3.6kgs I think. (a smaller motor with more reduction)
Our flexible OpenSource firmware for TSDZ2 unlocks the max voltage and current values of TSDZ2 (user can configure them in realtime on the LCD!!), meaning it can now be optimized for strong power. And soon we will add a temperature sensor to the motor, were we can read temperature value on LCD and motor controller will reduce the current when motor get to hot, meaning we will be able to push strong current to motor for small periods of time (beyond the 18 amps limit).
Also, seems that an online shop may soon start selling TSDZ2 with our flexible OpenSource firmware.
My first conversion ...

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 1#p1077497

It's 2018 already, lets get some real , improved e-bike / e-velomobile / e-motorcycle designs .

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by Hillhater » Aug 07 2018 5:17pm

ScooterMan101 wrote:
Aug 07 2018 1:46am
1 to 2 kilo's makes a big difference when you have to

1) move the bike through many doors, hallways in the apartment complex and through around many corners and doors to where the bike is stored .
2 ) makes a big difference when you have to lift it up onto a bike rack. car and / or bus rack and you have a back injury .
3) anytime you go up a steep hill, even 1 kilo more weight makes a big difference,
4) when loosing about as much body weight a parson can and still be healthy, it is then time to take off unnecessary weight off the bike.
5 ) go and look at the video's from this years Eurobike Convention , you will see complete e-bikes that weigh only ... 17-18 kilo's !!

So you see, you are wrong . A e- bike can be made to be light weight,
This has just been proven by some of the bikes at this years Eurobike !

Now , What parts can be machined to loose weight ?
You dont have to machine anything to loose weight from the bike...
I have a TSDZ2 on a Alu frame Specialised FSR without any exotic parts , that weighs < 16 kg ready to go !
How ? ..
....Take the freekin battery off the frame and put it in a back pack !
After 5 mins you will forget it is there , and it make the bike soooo much nicer to ride..especially off road.
This forum owes its existence to Justin of ebikes.ca


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eyebyesickle   10 kW

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by eyebyesickle » Aug 14 2018 4:43pm

Yeah it's available, and I provide support for it - but it's still new and getting tested. Seems plenty reliable etc, it's just about seeing if we can further refine the torque sensing operation.

As it's a little lighter than the BBS02 with just about the same power, It does insert itself into the realm of useful, and the display is pretty cool. Still headed towards some improvements going forward..
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dojrude   10 mW

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by dojrude » Aug 14 2018 8:19pm

I know they're ex Bafang engineers, but could they come up with a name any more similar to BBS02? :lol:

Eyebyesickle, you were going to do a review previously. Did that ever get posted? Would love to read it.
You mention further refining the torque sensor. Does that mean it's still not right in comparison to the TSDZ2 for example and still working more like a cadence sensor?
And one last question, what's the display model number? Looks different from the C300 and C600 that others have received.

Thanks.

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by eyebyesickle » Aug 14 2018 9:17pm

dojrude wrote:
Aug 14 2018 8:19pm
I know they're ex Bafang engineers, but could they come up with a name any more similar to BBS02? :lol:

Eyebyesickle, you were going to do a review previously. Did that ever get posted? Would love to read it.
You mention further refining the torque sensor. Does that mean it's still not right in comparison to the TSDZ2 for example and still working more like a cadence sensor?
And one last question, what's the display model number? Looks different from the C300 and C600 that others have received.

Thanks.
We came up with the EBBS02 name... They named it MM28 something or other, as in the title of the thread ;) but if we list it by the real name two things will happen. - 1 - every Chinese distributor in the game is going to start selling it, and other than competition where margins are already very low, this likely - 2 - will cause the motor to get a bad reputation initially due to poor support from some of the other distributors etc... Which makes it harder for us and we have been among the very first working with this motor putting in time, labor and funds... So that just some insight there.... Oh, also, if we use it's actual name, it won't come up as well on a search hahaha.

No review yet... I'm using my time and energy wisely right now because I'm dealing with an injury! Soon though.

Torque sensor is not as sophisticated as the TSDZ2, so it's more of a cadence sensor, but different and IMO better than the BBS02... Plus it's still quiet as the BBS02 so that is a leg up on the TSDZ2 as well...

A little lighter than BBS02, just as quiet, a little more powerful than the TSDZ2, more reliable with the stock plastic gear, and the 84mm bottom bracket... It can be used at 52v or 48v no problem on the same model, and the throttle has full power unlike the limited tongsheng... Price point is below BBS series.... so...... It has it's merits.

For the display, you can see we have a few versions no one else does... Some real similar to the newest DPC18 for the BBS... But the C6, which is what we offer it with, is the best one IMO. Sadly, it limits the top speed to 40kph (about 25mph which isn't hard to reach)... Sure there are tricks to get around that, but still that is a big factor for people...

Anyway I like this thing and I see potential... If I didn't I would've pulled out a while back...

That's what I got for ya now :) stay tuned I suppose
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dojrude   10 mW

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by dojrude » Aug 15 2018 5:12am

eyebyesickle wrote:
Aug 14 2018 9:17pm
Torque sensor is not as sophisticated as the TSDZ2, so it's more of a cadence sensor, but different and IMO better than the BBS02... Plus it's still quiet as the BBS02 so that is a leg up on the TSDZ2 as well...
This is slightly worrying considering it's advertised as a torque sensor.
Starting to think I might just be better getting a TSDZ2 with overdrive or a BBSHD and experimenting with the various programming profiles that are available.

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by casainho » Aug 15 2018 7:08am

dojrude wrote:
Aug 15 2018 5:12am
eyebyesickle wrote:
Aug 14 2018 9:17pm
Torque sensor is not as sophisticated as the TSDZ2, so it's more of a cadence sensor, but different and IMO better than the BBS02... Plus it's still quiet as the BBS02 so that is a leg up on the TSDZ2 as well...
This is slightly worrying considering it's advertised as a torque sensor.
Starting to think I might just be better getting a TSDZ2 with overdrive or a BBSHD and experimenting with the various programming profiles that are available.
So, this motor uses just the same electric power as TSDZ2 (52V * 18 Amps) so the output mecanical energy on the wheel is just the same as TSDZ2!

And with our OpenSource firmware, TSDZ2 has now more torque and uses less battery energy. Also max speed, voltage and current are now unlimited -- feedback from an experienced user:
I think the new firmware has given the motor new life. (...) it feels much more responsive and actually gives you more power as you spin out instead of dropping off like the original firmware. That is what I wanted so it now feels more like the Bosch motor.

In fact the old firmware would feel like you are hitting a brick wall the faster you peddle but with this firmware it feels like a breath of fresh air. The faster you want to go the more it helps you. When I got right near the end and still had some battery left I pumped the power up to 550W and was able to ride comfortably at 38km/hr with little effort. I would not have been able to do this with the old firmware with a battery that was so low.
Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers (TSDZ2 and KT) and LCDs (KT-LCD3 and Bafang 850C color LCD).

If you like my work, you can consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

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eyebyesickle   10 kW

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by eyebyesickle » Aug 15 2018 8:01am

Well, I would have to feel the torque on the new firmware casianho, and you might have to feel the torque on the 'EBBS02'.... Or to really put the money where our mouth is, it would need to be accurately tested. I've also tested these units at 20a... But even at 18a compared to TSDZ2 @ 18a the EBBS02 is more powerful... especially the throttle, obviously. Also, I wouldn't run the 52v at 18a with a TSDZ2... I use 18 max on 48v... 17a max on 52v, and as you've seen casianho, that is pushing it in some situations. Although I haven't actually burned a TSDZ2 like the one you had.... At the same power level, the EBBS02 isn't going to burn. Its also a lot easier to get the full power from the EBBS02... So I stand by my statement.

It's good to analyze numbers, but also it is important that you actually test a unit for yourself to speak too much on it IMO, and remember I'm not comparing to your own developed firmware Casianho, that is not readily available to the public - to be fair... (Let's not make this a third firmware thread ;D, hahahah I was just defending that topic in the other thread lol) and also this motor is much more quiet and doesn't have any glitches or problems at low end/speed etc... So it's kind of apples to oranges for comparing like that...

As for advertising it with a torque sensor... I think it's an accurate description... There clearly is torque sensing going on, in addition to the cadence sensing, although not as good as TSDZ2, it is clear that this is a main portion of how the assist functions. It's actually uses both, but alot of the torque sensing systems use both...

What would you propose the ads say? I'm not the one in 100% charge, I provide support and feedback that generally gets listened to, and I am willing to listen as well, but I am coming from a place with experience using this motor so please do take that into consideration if you haven't ...
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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by casainho » Aug 15 2018 4:54pm

You are write in all that you wrote. I really hope you can sell TSDZ2 with our developments that as you know, the feedback is very positive and says that gives to TSDZ2 motor more torque and uses less battery energy (and that is not because of miracle but because of our developments).
eyebyesickle wrote:
Aug 15 2018 8:01am
It's good to analyze numbers, but also it is important that you actually test a unit for yourself to speak too much on it IMO, and remember I'm not comparing to your own developed firmware Casianho, that is not readily available to the public - to be fair... (Let's not make this a third firmware thread ;D, hahahah I was just defending that topic in the other thread lol) and also this motor is much more quiet and doesn't have any glitches or problems at low end/speed etc... So it's kind of apples to oranges for comparing like that...
I am trusting on the developments we did and also on the feedback from that experienced user. You see, that user has a EBike with a BOSCH motor and compared TSDZ2 to it saying: "I think the new firmware has given the motor new life. (...) That is what I wanted so it now feels more like the Bosch motor." and it should also be comparing apples to oranges as TSDZ2 should be much more weak, right??

TSDZ2 has now a big advantage that is our OpenSource firmware. See, who knows if Lingbei torque sensor isn't better but the engineers didn't developed very well the firmware? And who knows if the motor can't run at a higher speed than the 40km/h limit? -- we did "unlock" this kind of things and others on TSDZ2. Yes, I wish was fast to develop/port our OpenSource firmware to other models like Lingbei but unfortunately that is not the reality (at least we share, maybe some one can take advantage and develop to Lingbei...).
Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers (TSDZ2 and KT) and LCDs (KT-LCD3 and Bafang 850C color LCD).

If you like my work, you can consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

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