New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

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eyebyesickle   10 kW

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by eyebyesickle » Aug 15 2018 5:19pm

Hi,

Yeah as you know I am all for the TSDZ2 development, and as you also know I plan to hopefully use it with a different display. I see you all are talking Bluetooth now which is what I had mentioned.... BUT, I was trying NOT to discuss that too much here ;)

As for LingBei... 40kph is not the max speed limit, only with the C6, and there are ways around that even then.

My first question I asked about the LingBei was this:

What are the torque sensors max and minimum values it is capable of reading, and what are the increments/steps it can read? - This will dictate the overall ability (the hardware capability) and is the 'ceiling' so to speak - the rest is in the programming.

LingBei is new, and developments are ongoing, and there are a number of advantages it has that the TSDZ2 will not have with any programming, so that is important to note. When it comes to the hardware the LingBei is/has:

- quieter operation
- stronger plastic gear, more reliable
- can handle more current without burning
- EDIT - 68-73, LIKE EVERYTHING ELSE - NOT 84mm BB
- more clearance between axle/bb/shaft and motor housing for installs with cables routed under bikes BB etc.
- different display choice (can be changed, but it's nice to have something fresh)

That's all off the top of my head... But there are ongoing developments to the firmware so it is ongoing....

Also, although I support the sale of this motor, you can see I do not push it, or even advertise here... I did not even mention it until someone else posted the link... I am very impartial and just giving the honest info for this motor, I try to be moral and ethical about it.... So that's what I know.

I'll take any more of my comments about the TSDZ2 firmware to the TSDZ2 threads, and I will keep you updated on any LingBei firmware improvements here :)

Thanks
Last edited by eyebyesickle on Aug 17 2018 6:47pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by Kisazul » Aug 15 2018 5:36pm

The development of the Lingbei motor is stupid, it is an analogue of the bbs01 with a different name and does NOT have a torque sensor. ONLY PAS. Correctly said kasainho - "Sometimes there are a lot of marketing bullshit"
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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by Hillhater » Aug 15 2018 5:59pm

eyebyesickle wrote:
Aug 15 2018 5:19pm
- quieter operation
- stronger plastic gear, more reliable
...
Just a thought, and Im going from memory here, so correct me if i am mistaken...
I believe the Lingbei has a gearing reduction between the motor and the chainwheel of 23:1 ?
....whilst the TSDZ2 is 40:1 , ? And it also has less torque at the chainwheel. ?
That implies that the Lingbei uses a much lower rpm motor, but a very high Torque at the motor. ..(which may explain the reduced noise levels)
BUT, the torque load on the Lingbei blue gear must be much higher than in the TSDz2..(Possibly double ?).. at a lower rpm.
.... To me , that is not a change likely to improve the reliability or life of that gear, or the internal clutch bearing, even if it is a larger diameter.
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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by eyebyesickle » Aug 15 2018 6:12pm

Hillhater wrote:
Aug 15 2018 5:59pm
eyebyesickle wrote:
Aug 15 2018 5:19pm
- quieter operation
- stronger plastic gear, more reliable
...
Just a thought, and Im going from memory here, so correct me if i am mistaken...
I believe the Lingbei has a gearing reduction between the motor and the chainwheel of 23:1 ?
....whilst the TSDZ2 is 40:1 , ? And it also has less torque at the chainwheel. ?
That implies that the Lingbei uses a much lower rpm motor, but a very high Torque at the motor. ..(which may explain the reduced noise levels)
BUT, the torque load on the Lingbei blue gear must be much higher than in the TSDz2..(Possibly double ?).. at a lower rpm.
.... To me , that is not a change likely to improve the reliability or life of that gear, or the internal clutch bearing, even if it is a larger diameter.
Maybe the tooth mesh/fit? I am not certain. How do these gearing ratios relate to the BBS, which also has a more reliable plastic gear? I think part of the reduced noise lies in the type of gears, which is why the BBS is quieter - at least that's what I understood.
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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by eyebyesickle » Aug 15 2018 6:14pm

Kisazul wrote:
Aug 15 2018 5:36pm
The development of the Lingbei motor is stupid, it is an analogue of the bbs01 with a different name and does NOT have a torque sensor. ONLY PAS. Correctly said kasainho - "Sometimes there are a lot of marketing bullshit"
Hm... I don't know about that - those pictures don't show that there is no torque sensor, they just don't show a torque sensor. I don't see a PAS either - does that mean it doesn't have PAS?... Clearly not... lets investigate more... I believe LingBei developed and uses a combined PAS/torque sensor...

EDIT: I looked into the design... Seems like the sensor is where the clutch on the spindle engages on the inside of the motor...
Last edited by eyebyesickle on Aug 15 2018 10:55pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by Hillhater » Aug 15 2018 6:25pm

eyebyesickle wrote:
Aug 15 2018 6:12pm
Hillhater wrote:
Aug 15 2018 5:59pm
eyebyesickle wrote:
Aug 15 2018 5:19pm
- quieter operation
- stronger plastic gear, more reliable
...
Just a thought, and Im going from memory here, so correct me if i am mistaken...
I believe the Lingbei has a gearing reduction between the motor and the chainwheel of 23:1 ?
....whilst the TSDZ2 is 40:1 , ? And it also has less torque at the chainwheel. ?
That implies that the Lingbei uses a much lower rpm motor, but a very high Torque at the motor. ..(which may explain the reduced noise levels)
BUT, the torque load on the Lingbei blue gear must be much higher than in the TSDz2..(Possibly double ?).. at a lower rpm.
.... To me , that is not a change likely to improve the reliability or life of that gear, or the internal clutch bearing, even if it is a larger diameter.
Maybe the tooth mesh/fit? I am not certain. How do these gearing ratios relate to the BBS, which also has a more reliable plastic gear? I think part of the reduced noise lies in the type of gears, which is why the BBS is quieter - at least that's what I understood.
EDITed
From memory again (less sure of this) .. The bbs01/02 have a similar 40:1 ratio...23:1 rtio
..but the bbsHD , Max etc are different with bigger diameter (higher torque) motors.
I will google around and try to confirm the data.
But are the bbs plastic gears any more reliable ?.
Remember , much of the "noise" could be related to the design /type of controller. Are these all pure sine wave ?
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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by eyebyesickle » Aug 15 2018 7:38pm

Yeah Hillhater (I really appreciate that name, BTW, hahaha) I think it has to do with 'helical' gearing? Though this is me jabbing on my phone off the top of my head. THe BBS plastic gears are for sure more reliable... Especially at equivalent current, no contest. It's quite easy to chip a TSDZ2 plastic gear... Not as much a BBS, not by a Longshot.

As for the controller specs... Eh I know nothing ;) of course the controller affects the sound too, but I don't believe this is the main cause. I think it's gear type, and fit / tooth mesh is the main difference we experience.

I don't really have an electrical/engineering background.... I come from a place where I get briefed just before hand, take it as golden truth, then get my ass handed to me in the field! Hahahahaha so we might see some of that reflected here as well!
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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by casainho » Aug 15 2018 7:42pm

Hillhater wrote:
Aug 15 2018 6:25pm
Remember , much of the "noise" could be related to the design /type of controller. Are these all pure sine wave ?
TSDZ2 original firmware as also our OpenSource firmware, they both drive the motor coils with pure sinewave / SVM Space Vector Modulation. I bet Lingbei does the same.
Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers (TSDZ2 and KT) and LCDs (KT-LCD3 and Bafang 850C color LCD).

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by eyebyesickle » Aug 15 2018 10:52pm

Ok well I know I was just naysaying the TSDZ2 talk, but casianho, I can't wait until the firmware is 'finished' or at least we have a stable version to release... Not only would I personally try to force feed it into the Tongsheng production line (I really don't know how it will be received by them to be honest, best to wait until it's ready for them) but I will be trying to find the right guy to carry over the refined torque sensing motor operation 'protocols' (insert your proper term there) to the LingBei programming! Hehe sounds good anyway.

Although I am a layman with limited (mis) understanding, I have strong reason to believe it is simply the coding aspect where the LingBei engineers/motor/controller is lacking, not the hardware. The torque sensor is highly sensitive and capable, from what I do understand. I know there is contraversy in this subject, but I believe the torque output is measured at the clutch on the shaft as a gentleman posted above. It stands to reason, or extrapolate to be precise, that as they left Bafang and brought the copied motor, programming information, manufacturing process.... they are lacking in the torque sensing software department because they didnt get to take that, they had to make that from scratch... and the code is crude and simple, not taking anywhere near full advantage of the capabilities of a torque sensor.


Also, side note... I think I'm wrong about the 84mm thing... I have that in my notes but let me go measure one, that doesn't seem right...
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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by Kisazul » Aug 15 2018 11:03pm

eyebyesickle wrote:
Aug 15 2018 6:14pm
Kisazul wrote:
Aug 15 2018 5:36pm
The development of the Lingbei motor is stupid, it is an analogue of the bbs01 with a different name and does NOT have a torque sensor. ONLY PAS. Correctly said kasainho - "Sometimes there are a lot of marketing bullshit"
Hm... I don't know about that - those pictures don't show that there is no torque sensor, they just don't show a torque sensor. I don't see a PAS either - does that mean it doesn't have PAS?... Clearly not... lets investigate more... I believe LingBei developed and uses a combined PAS/torque sensor...

EDIT: I looked into the design... Seems like the sensor is where the clutch on the spindle engages on the inside of the motor...
As you can see on the image there is a freewheel clutch and 2 magnets for the PAS sensor. Nothing more is present there. The mechanism is identical to Bbc01. In the body of the carriage, the wires and the Pas sensor are suitable.
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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by Drum » Aug 16 2018 12:36am

Hi Kisazul,
You seem to have access to information / photos of a partially stripped Lingbei motor.
I agree it obviously does not have a torque sensor built onto the pedal spindle directly, but in the photo looking into the bore of the bearings there is a dark coloured component with a flat portion and what look like soldered connections: Do you know what that is?

It looks vaguely similar to the torque sensing element of the TSDZ2. I am not saying it definitely is a torque sensor, but I don't think the lack of a sensor on the pedal shaft is enough evidence to completely rule out a torque sensor somewhere else in the mechanism.

We all still need more information, which I am sure will be forthcoming as the motors get out into the market and people start using them.

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by Kisazul » Aug 16 2018 1:12am

Drum wrote:
Aug 16 2018 12:36am
...in the photo looking into the bore of the bearings there is a dark coloured component with a flat portion and what look like soldered connections: Do you know what that is?


I think it's a PAS sensor. Two magnets are mounted on the shaft and marked.
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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by Drum » Aug 16 2018 1:41am

Ok, if the magnets line up with that sensor, (and it looks like they do) then PAS sensor seems likely.
It would be great to see a full strip-down of the unit.. it would answer a few questions.

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by -dg » Aug 16 2018 4:02am

casainho wrote:
Aug 15 2018 7:42pm
TSDZ2 original firmware as also our OpenSource firmware, they both drive the motor coils with pure sinewave / SVM Space Vector Modulation. I bet Lingbei does the same.
Hmm, I don't see why they would need to, STM32 at 48Mhz is probably fast enough to do real FOC. Someone should look inside and count the current sensors. If they sense more than one phase it is probably not the same as our STM8 technique.
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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by casainho » Aug 16 2018 4:09am

-dg wrote:
Aug 16 2018 4:02am
casainho wrote:
Aug 15 2018 7:42pm
TSDZ2 original firmware as also our OpenSource firmware, they both drive the motor coils with pure sinewave / SVM Space Vector Modulation. I bet Lingbei does the same.
Hmm, I don't see why they would need to, STM32 at 48Mhz is probably fast enough to do real FOC. Someone should look inside and count the current sensors. If they sense more than one phase it is probably not the same as our STM8 technique.
1. SVM is not FOC. SVM is what drives the motor phases with sinewave voltages.
2. I am doing real FOC but at lower frequency because STM8 would not be fast enough to do it, even if there was dedicated phase current sensors. Even at lower frequency, seems good for ebike application.
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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by eyebyesickle » Aug 16 2018 9:51am

Drum wrote:
Aug 16 2018 1:41am
Ok, if the magnets line up with that sensor, (and it looks like they do) then PAS sensor seems likely.
It would be great to see a full strip-down of the unit.. it would answer a few questions.
Yes of course the sensor is not on the spindle itself... but where the clutch engages, is a dual torque/speed sensor,not just PAS... If you look at the design of the BB torque sensor they offer, this seems to match up. I am confident a full disassembly would prove this.
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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by eyebyesickle » Aug 16 2018 10:00am

bbs pas.jpg
for reference...the BBS - PAS sensor
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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by fantasy2 » Aug 17 2018 4:06am

I got informed that two new firmware versions are being tested right now and the torque sensing was much more evident this time but not as smooth as the original released firmware.

They also told me that the electronics will go from 6 to 9 mosfets allowing higher currents.

By the way, sorry to say this, but I'm getting a little but fed up by this constant opensource TSDZ2 promotion talk. Yes, you must be very happy and defend the work that has been done. I think it's really great. But this is the MM28 thread, a different motor. Please stop constantly defending the TSDZ2 motor. We just want to discuss MM28 progress and updates.


Oh and the torque sensor doesn't have to be on the shaft of course. It could also be on an outer ring where the freewheel mechanism locks/connects to the motor.

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by John and Cecil » Aug 17 2018 9:53am

This motor sounds very promising. I wonder how long it will be until the improvements make it to the delivered product. We have a tsdz2 now but I suspect this motor is going to be much more reliable. :)

Does anyone know if this motor will be able to utilize a 15s (63v max) battery. Most of the mid drives seem to top out with 14s battery voltages.

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by fantasy2 » Aug 17 2018 9:57am

There are 63V rated caps inside so I would say no.

However, they are working on a new controller, so there is a possibility it will be with the new electronics!

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by eyebyesickle » Aug 17 2018 6:45pm

Yeah, even with the new version, no go on over 63v, I can assure that.

We have the new programming, it's not perfect like I said, but it's clearly a torque sensor. I suspect others commenting dont have the newer version.

Nice about the mosfets... I don't know how much more current the motor could take over 20a while being reliable though... If the BBS02 is 25a max... I'd say 22-23a absolute max for this... (Which is what I would run BBS02 at for reliability's sake).

Yeeeeeah, I tried to ask nicely about the TSDZ2 talk, but that was just ignored. Ruuuuude.. Hahahahaha. I'm rude too though, so hey.
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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by John and Cecil » Aug 17 2018 7:06pm

Thanks for all the info Eye, this motor sounds like it has loads of potential :) Reliable, 20+ amps, light weight, quiet, and a torque sensor. Now if only they would except trade-ins of other brands! :) I wish this motor was out when I bought mine!

I decided to order an adjustable 14s charger that will charge a 15s battery up to 60v - 61v. I guess that is about the best it is going to get with any of the current mid drives until the manufacturers increase the voltage specs or we install aftermarket controllers. I do like running at higher voltages and raising the rpms though.

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by eyebyesickle » Aug 17 2018 7:19pm

John and Cecil wrote:
Aug 17 2018 7:06pm
Thanks for all the info Eye, this motor sounds like it has loads of potential :) Reliable, 20+ amps, light weight, quiet, and a torque sensor. Now if only they would except trade-ins of other brands! :) I wish this motor was out when I bought mine!

I decided to order an adjustable 14s charger that will charge a 15s battery up to 60v - 61v. I guess that is about the best it is going to get with any of the current mid drives until the manufacturers increase the voltage specs or we install aftermarket controllers. I do like running at higher voltages and raising the rpms though.
Yeah, the only thing that gets me with this motor, is the exit location of the wiring.... Not ideal to me, especially considering how I fish for frames where I can turn/pivot/install the motor more upright for better clearance, which openly exposes the wires. But this motor does seem to meet in the middle of things though, and a BBS with a torque sensor is what I always wanted personally... Which is why I am around here. I seeeeeee potential!
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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by fantasy2 » Aug 18 2018 3:02am

eyebyesickle wrote:
Aug 17 2018 6:45pm
We have the new programming, it's not perfect like I said, but it's clearly a torque sensor. I suspect others commenting dont have the newer version.
Can you share it? I have run the cables to the outside so I can program it easily.
I asked the seller and she told me that it wasn't perfect and she didn't want to give it for that reason as they are waiting for a hardware upgrade combined with improved torque sensing. That makes me think that they need to improve range or sensitivity of the torque sensor in the hardware itself.

Oh and not sure if you found it but there is a bug in the C600 displays. The set speed limit does not work. I got the new firmware yesterday but still need to flash it in the display. They also told me that the display firmware would be upgraded together with the motor hardware so hopefully that allows us to change some more settings ourselves!

I love their activity and openness :)
Nice about the mosfets... I don't know how much more current the motor could take over 20a while being reliable though... If the BBS02 is 25a max... I'd say 22-23a absolute max for this... (Which is what I would run BBS02 at for reliability's sake).
It will probably allow higher peak currents so they can sell it as a 1kW motor. If the current mosfets can run 20A, that's 10A each. So... 30A? :lol:

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by notger » Aug 18 2018 3:52am

fantasy2 wrote:
Aug 17 2018 9:57am
There are 63V rated caps inside so I would say no.
I mean not taking Voltage spikes into count it should actually work
15X 4,1 Volt (ideal 18650 charge-limit) = 61,5 Volts

But sure the Battery gauge will not show the right state of charge it the dispaly can just be set to 14s

But !
would be important to know what over-voltage Protevtion value is set on the Lingbei Firmware ? (On BBS its 62 Volts)
viewtopic.php?t=58343#p871394

using the Grin Phase Runner plus CAv3 might be an good option to highly customize the Lingbei.
But the Qustion is if the CA can handle the torque-sensor signals comming from the lingbei torque sensor.

are there any more infos on the torque signal ?

Here the BBS with Grin-Controller (without torque sensing !!)
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=91775&p=1395650&hil ... n#p1395650

The CAv3 allows lots of value changes of different torque sensors, and also setting an "generic-sensor" with own values.
I guess CA is one ot the most advance torque-sensor-Translators (controllers).

here you can even get a plug and play BBSHD Grin controller Kit (! and sure,...without torque sensing)
https://fasterbikes.eu/en/controller/31 ... uded-bbshd

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