New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

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eyebyesickle   10 kW

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by eyebyesickle » Sep 22 2018 11:37am

Motor noise, less. Cadence, maybe a tad higher, about the same. Weight, a tad higher, not by much.

Here is the new programming (48/52v) compatible with older model motors:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FEvRvf ... p=drivesdk
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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by Dogboy1200 » Sep 23 2018 8:50am

Are they planning on adding a 100mm B.B. length version?
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Kisazul   10 mW

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by Kisazul » Sep 24 2018 2:02am

eyebyesickle wrote:
Sep 22 2018 11:37am
Motor noise, less. Cadence, maybe a tad higher, about the same. Weight, a tad higher, not by much.

Here is the new programming (48/52v) compatible with older model motors:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FEvRvf ... p=drivesdk
Hi eyebyesickle. Do u have new programming (36v) compatible with older model motors?

Uturn   10 mW

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by Uturn » Sep 24 2018 3:08am

new programming (48/52v) compatible
Is there any description on how to do that programming, as there is no cable connector on the motor?
OKfeet on Aliexpress only list a 36Volt Motor. Where to order a 48Volt version?

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by beartaco » Sep 24 2018 11:04am

Uturn wrote:
Sep 24 2018 3:08am
Is there any description on how to do that programming, as there is no cable connector on the motor?
OKfeet on Aliexpress only list a 36Volt Motor. Where to order a 48Volt version?
I contacted OKfeet about the 48V motor and was told it was out of stock. Should be available again in "several days".

Davescustom   1 mW

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by Davescustom » Sep 24 2018 1:23pm

Kisazul wrote:
Sep 24 2018 2:02am
eyebyesickle wrote:
Sep 22 2018 11:37am
Motor noise, less. Cadence, maybe a tad higher, about the same. Weight, a tad higher, not by much.

Here is the new programming (48/52v) compatible with older model motors:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FEvRvf ... p=drivesdk
Hi eyebyesickle. Do u have new programming (36v) compatible with older model motors?
I also would like to buy the 36v version.. an how to flash the new firmware? it is programmable like the bafang and the TSDZ2?

casainho   100 MW

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by casainho » Sep 29 2018 8:27am

Now that TSDZ2 firmware is mostly finished, I wounder about this motor. I would like to see more technical details... I wish some one can start develop firmware for it.

I think my next project may be to start developing firmware for color LCD, or KT color LCD or Bafang color LCD. We already know that Bafang color LCD can be programmed as it also uses a clone (the one used on hoverboards) of the very popular STM32F103!!

I hope we can develop the firmware for a good color LCD and that can communicate/work for several motors/motor controllers -- can you guys imagine a color LCD showing more a realtime graph of the motor power, motor temperature, battery SOC, etc??. Can this Lingbei MM28.250 be the next upgrade over TSDZ2??
Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers (TSDZ2 and KT) and LCDs (KT-LCD3 and Bafang 850C color LCD).

If you like my work, you can consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

maitilupas   10 W

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by maitilupas » Sep 29 2018 3:02pm

might be , i see potential , will wait before buying one
thanks allot for your good work Casainho , good to know you worked firmwares for kunteng and tdz in my view these are reliable and solid chinese ebike motors/controllers.

Uturn   10 mW

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by Uturn » Sep 30 2018 8:42am

casainho wrote:
Sep 29 2018 8:27am
Can this Lingbei MM28.250 be the next upgrade over TSDZ2??
Could, so far we only know it's a bit heavier, a bit wider too, has no programming connector, there seems to be only one dealer selling it who claims it's built better than the TSDZ: Because one gear has more diameter.

anttipaa   10 W

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by anttipaa » Sep 30 2018 9:06am

Does anyone have new version? Does it have throttle lag like tsdz2? Can it be programmed for full power on throttle on any pas level?
Canyon Torque + ?


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eyebyesickle   10 kW

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by eyebyesickle » Sep 30 2018 10:19pm

Davescustom wrote:
Sep 24 2018 1:23pm
Kisazul wrote:
Sep 24 2018 2:02am
eyebyesickle wrote:
Sep 22 2018 11:37am
Motor noise, less. Cadence, maybe a tad higher, about the same. Weight, a tad higher, not by much.

Here is the new programming (48/52v) compatible with older model motors:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FEvRvf ... p=drivesdk
Hi eyebyesickle. Do u have new programming (36v) compatible with older model motors?
I also would like to buy the 36v version.. an how to flash the new firmware? it is programmable like the bafang and the TSDZ2?
The 36v and 48/52v are available... I will have to get the 36v firmware when I get a chance - I'll post it then.

The older motors have a controller that cant handle as many amps, and you have to open them up to access the programming cable.

The newer motors can handle more amps, and has an external programming cable. Still just have to flash a whole new profile, not to the point of tweaking individual values for small adjustments yet.
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Uturn   10 mW

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by Uturn » Oct 03 2018 12:44am

will any of the Bafang BBS displays match with the LingBei Motor?
or can the eggrider
https://eggbikes.com/eggrider
be adapted?

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wheelyphased   1 mW

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by wheelyphased » Oct 03 2018 5:10am

I really wanted to love this V2.0 motor: small, light, powerful, torque sensing and improved program but, it wasn’t to be. I installed the latest version in my gravel bike yesterday. I removed it today and re-fitted my TSDZ2.
The new programming does not suit me at all and the resulting ride experience is not enjoyable. The minimum setting PAS1 is way too powerful. It’s set for at about 5A which results in being forced to ride with 250W of assist, on my bike that means not having to pedal at all. I ride for fitness which means 100W assist or less on a level road at 30km/h. A 14S5P should get me comfortably over 100km and 750m gain on 80% capacity and does on BBSHD and TSDZ2.
I rode for 30km in PAS1 & came home (I ride 3-4hrs normally). This programming feels like a moped but with a stuck throttle. I couldn’t feel torque sensing like my TSDZ2. The power comes in immediately on 30deg turn of a pedal and at an even cadence additional pedal torque does not increase the current. At 90-95 cadence the current drops abruptly causing noticeable and annoying power surges. I don’t believe this motor has a pedal torque sensor like TSDZ2, what seems to happen is current increases slightly with cadence then stops abruptly. If there is torque measurement it is incompetently programmed and overwhelmed with fixed assist. To ride in PAS1, it feels like a BBSHD stuck on PAS3. PAS3 goes ludicrous at 500W and PAS 4 & 5 are outside my comfort zone. This is one powerful motor.
I realize I have unusual e-bike demands and many people here may be happy to have so much power but the core issue here is torque sensing. MIA? Really want to hear other user’s impressions. I mounted the different setups in an indoor trainer resistance stand and rotated the pedals.
a) Bafang just starts up & goes as expected, in any gear.
b) Lingbei same but not immediately responsive.
c) Tongsheng TSDZ2 does nothing until you reach a pedal torque threshold.

For my purposes, if Lingbei was a better built TSDZ2 or a torque sensor Bafang it would be perfection (quiet as Bafang, with no blue gear or overstressed roller clutch or bearing play and other annoyances like shutting down when charging a phone or reverting to AVE SPEED randomly and repeatedly on a ride). However, it isn’t, and we are in the land of compromise. Right now TSDZ2 suits me best, my biggest gripe being it sounds like a broken angle grinder.

For the record, V2.0 MM28.250 notes follow.
Programmable from 2 existing external function cables using TREEDE software and box ($25 from Lingbei). They have a video and will supply software. No need to open motor BUT requires a complete reflash, not tweaking in settings.
Installation is same as Bafang, no motor support parts or provision for preventing motor droop, it relies on axial compressive friction in BB plus your ingenuity/hose clips/brackets. Clearance between motor housing is best in class, plenty space for hydraulic hoses, brake cables, motor cable.
Characteristics: slightly quieter than my re-greased TSDZ2 (disappointing), +4mm Q factor on TSDZ2 (measured), actual weight 3.85kg (weighed). The motor feels totally solid with no diametral or end-play in the crank. Sealed at every entry point, possibly watertight.
Throttle is programmed to work same at any PAS level but limited to 10A (on this program), there is no delay (i.e. not like TSDZ2). Cannot use throttle to momentarily reduce power for gear shifting like TSDZ2. Throttle-power is fine coming in gradually but without delay and increasing with a comfortable ramp.

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by casainho » Oct 03 2018 5:24am

wheelyphased wrote:
Oct 03 2018 5:10am
At 90-95 cadence the current drops abruptly causing noticeable and annoying power surges. I don’t believe this motor has a pedal torque sensor like TSDZ2

c) Tongsheng TSDZ2 does nothing until you reach a pedal torque threshold.
And you are not yet comparing with TSDZ2 running our own firmware - you should try it!! It can start as soon as you touch on the pedals or as alternative (a configuration on LCD), only after a min amount of pedal cadence.

Also it can run at higher cadences, as reported by jbalat, a long time user of TSDZ2 that already did more than 5000kms on it:

I think the new firmware has given the motor new life. (...) it feels much more responsive and actually gives you more power as you spin out instead of dropping off like the original firmware. That is what I wanted so it now feels more like the Bosch motor.

In fact the old firmware would feel like you are hitting a brick wall the faster you peddle but with this firmware it feels like a breath of fresh air. The faster you want to go the more it helps you. When I got right near the end and still had some battery left I pumped the power up to 550W and was able to ride comfortably at 38km/hr with little effort. I would not have been able to do this with the old firmware with a battery that was so low.


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If you like my work, you can consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

Uturn   10 mW

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by Uturn » Oct 03 2018 9:28am

wheelyphased wrote:
Oct 03 2018 5:10am
my biggest gripe being it sounds like a broken angle grinder.
(Lingbei is) slightly quieter than my re-greased TSDZ2 (disappointing), +4mm Q factor on TSDZ2 (measured)
Are you exaggerating a bit? Sounds like the Ligbei still has angle grinder sound but not like a broken one?
Really strange they seem to produce a ok product but can't seem to get the software work properly. Or maybe the output of the torque sensor. (or, if you exaggerate same as with noise the Lingbei isn't all that bad?) A tad difficult to read, but thank you for the report.

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by stinkycats » Oct 03 2018 9:49am

Thanks wheelyphased for the report.

Has anyone put the torque sensor output on a scope yet to determine if you're actually getting a variable signal? It seems from the ride characteristics described that the torque output is only an on/off signal. If that's true, then no amount of firmware modification is going to change the motor behavior. If the output is actually variable, then it should be possible to rewrite the firmware to make the motor work more like casainho's TSDZ2 mod.

I'm unwilling to buy one of these just to take a measurement of the torque output, but if someone can confirm that there is variable output of the torque sensor based on pedal pressure as measured on a scope, I would be willing to buy one and start a firmware mod project for it.

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by Uturn » Oct 03 2018 11:01am

stinkycats wrote:
Oct 03 2018 9:49am
Has anyone put the torque sensor output on a scope
LingBei also make a torque sensor that looks like exactly the one bmsbattery.com are selling, and it seems to be working quite a well, was reported on german pedelecforum.de.

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by casainho » Oct 03 2018 12:28pm

Uturn wrote:
Oct 03 2018 11:01am
stinkycats wrote:
Oct 03 2018 9:49am
Has anyone put the torque sensor output on a scope
LingBei also make a torque sensor that looks like exactly the one bmsbattery.com are selling, and it seems to be working quite a well, was reported on german pedelecforum.de.
Well, BMSBattery torque sensor is bad in the sense that the axle break on the right side, did happen to me in 2 different units and recently Stancecoke user had the same problem :-( :-(
Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers (TSDZ2 and KT) and LCDs (KT-LCD3 and Bafang 850C color LCD).

If you like my work, you can consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by stinkycats » Oct 03 2018 1:13pm

Uturn wrote:
Oct 03 2018 11:01am
LingBei also make a torque sensor that looks like exactly the one bmsbattery.com are selling . . .
That doesn't mean much. The pictures fantasy2 shows here don't indicate if the hall sensors are switches responding to the presence of a magnetic field, creating an on/off signal (which would require multiple poles around the circumference to have a greater resolution than one pulse per revolution), or if the sensors are analog output, varying their output according to the distance of the magnet.

A scope on the torque sensor output (a dual input scope would be very useful here -- heck, you could probably make do with a sound card oscilloscope using left/right inputs) would quickly show what kind of signal we have, thus determining if this motor has usable sensor for firmware modification.

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by Uturn » Oct 04 2018 9:50am

stinkycats wrote:
Oct 03 2018 1:13pm
That doesn't mean much.
Well it means they understand how to make torque sensors, citing user stancecoke: Well working torque sensors, and if the axle breaks there still may be a nice working torque sensor in that bottom bracket. Marketing mid motors as torque sensing that are equipped with switches instead of torque sensors, is not a very good idea, in the long run.

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by casainho » Oct 04 2018 12:21pm

stinkycats wrote:
Oct 03 2018 9:49am
I'm unwilling to buy one of these just to take a measurement of the torque output, but if someone can confirm that there is variable output of the torque sensor based on pedal pressure as measured on a scope, I would be willing to buy one and start a firmware mod project for it.
For what was shown before, I really think torque measure can be measured on the timing difference between pulses of the hall sensors.

Someone must take risk and go ahead. I spend a lot of money in controllers, etc to keep developing the firmware. I think you should go ahead because there is high probability it is a torque sensor.

But before go ahead, be prepared to have spare parts for the motor, like having a few motor controller boards. How much do they cost and where can we buy them?? TSDZ2 controller boards costs $30 while Bafang BBS03/BBSHD controler board costs $140!!
Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers (TSDZ2 and KT) and LCDs (KT-LCD3 and Bafang 850C color LCD).

If you like my work, you can consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by fantasy2 » Oct 04 2018 12:30pm

Thanks for the firmware eyebyesickle!

However, after reading the report I'm not too sure about updating my V1 motor. :cry:
What's your opinion on it eyebye? Is it better for V1 motors than the original flash? Did you find the locations in the hex where they stored the settings?

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by stinkycats » Oct 04 2018 1:18pm

casainho wrote:
Oct 04 2018 12:21pm
For what was shown before, I really think torque measure can be measured on the timing difference between pulses of the hall sensors.
Yes, the phase difference of two pulse trains can indicate the amount of torque. However, as I pointed out, a pulse train is nearly useless as a measure of torque if you don't have enough pulses-per-revolution. One pulse every 360° is useless. One pulse every 180° (2 pulses per revolution) is almost as useless. One pulse every 90° means you have to rotate the pedals 1/4 of the way around before you get a torque measurement. This is also fairly useless. In my opinion, you would need at least 32 magnetic poles (every 11.25°) to get a smooth torque reading without moving the pedals too far.

There is no way to see if the axle has that many magnetic poles from the pictures posted here, or even if it is pulse train based or magnitude based (analog output).

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Re: New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

Post by -dg » Oct 04 2018 7:08pm

Drum wrote:
Aug 19 2018 5:24pm
(On a side topic: the controller both powers and communicates with the torque sensor through two coils of wire: one fixed and one rotating with the pedal spindle, with only two wires from the controller to the fixed coil.. quite clever! This is needed because the torque sensor is rotating with the pedal spindle so cannot be "hard-wired").
This is interesting. How is this done? That is, are the coils of wire arranged like the poles in a motor, or are they concentric to the shaft? I can see how to get power, because generator, duh, but how are they handling signal?
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