Rieju 50cc conversion

General Discussion about large electric scooters and motorcycles and other things with no pedals.
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j bjork   10 kW

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Re: Rieju 50cc conversion

Post by j bjork » Mar 02 2019 3:03pm

Nice build, I have an offer of an old yamaha dt 125 that might be interesting to convert..
I think it could even be leagal :shock:

For now I am building a "stelth bomber" clone or something..
I am looking for a controller for it, I would be interested in your input. The APT looks interesting, but a bit big..
Did you find out if it has torque throttle?

larsb   1 MW

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Re: Rieju 50cc conversion

Post by larsb » Mar 02 2019 3:46pm

It's (correction: not) only speed throttle. Hard to not notice when driving with slick tires in mud.. One slip and the wheel goes 100km/h :D

I think it's too big for that type of bike, better get something that can fit
Last edited by larsb on May 13 2019 3:36pm, edited 1 time in total.

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eee291   100 kW

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Re: Rieju 50cc conversion

Post by eee291 » Mar 02 2019 5:14pm

This might interest you:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 31&t=75494

Official sales will beginn in the next two months but people have been able get some early, try contacting him.

Bartosh   100 W

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Re: Rieju 50cc conversion

Post by Bartosh » Mar 02 2019 5:53pm

larsb wrote:
Mar 02 2019 3:46pm
It's only speed throttle. Hard to not notice when driving with slick tires in mud.. One slip and the wheel goes 100km/h :D

I think it's too big for that type of bike, better get something that can fit
larsb, now you got me scared. Can you please clarify what you mean by "speed throttle"? Hope it's not a voltage throttle controller :shock: Anyway this is what I found on QS motor website: SPACE VECTOR & DIRECT TORQUE CONTROL PM MOTOR DRIVER - AE1405 Series,the latest product by Shanghai APT, specially designed for EV or Scooters use the PM motors for its main drive power. By the method of space vector and direct torque control, based on the 32bit ARM processer, and embedded the APT private algorithm, the product's features mostly presented are large torque and high speed, as well as high reliability. BTW already ordered the brick.

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eee291   100 kW

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Re: Rieju 50cc conversion

Post by eee291 » Mar 02 2019 7:16pm

If the tire slips to full speed (in mud for instance) while the throttle is somewhere below WOT (30% for example) then you got a torque throttle Controller.
Which is what most people want.
I for one don't prefer one over the other.

larsb   1 MW

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Re: Rieju 50cc conversion

Post by larsb » Mar 03 2019 1:48am

You're probably right ee291, did i have it backwards..

Is it like this?:
Speed controller , voltage is controlled so the requested throttle gives you corresponding voltage to the motor with possibly max current, kv*volt rpm is reached.

Torque controller, current is controlled so it gives corresponding current (no matter what resistance, or wheel spin rpm) until BEMF balances voltage at high rpm

I guess it's not this simple, i should read up on boost/buck converters and PWM, svm etc again :D

Bartosh   100 W

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Re: Rieju 50cc conversion

Post by Bartosh » Mar 03 2019 2:06am

:thumb: All clear now, thanks for clarifying that. Larsb, the way you described it above is also the way I get it. Voltage - speed, current - torque. BTW you got your moto moving again on a new pack?

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eee291   100 kW

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Re: Rieju 50cc conversion

Post by eee291 » Mar 03 2019 2:49am

Yes, that is pretty much it in simple terms.

But people always like to point out that in both situation the Controller regulates the Voltage, since current limiting is done by lowering the voltage until the desired current (torque Controller) or speed (speed Controller) is reached.

larsb   1 MW

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Re: Rieju 50cc conversion

Post by larsb » Mar 03 2019 3:33am

Bartosh wrote:
Mar 03 2019 2:06am
:thumb: All clear now, thanks for clarifying that. Larsb, the way you described it above is also the way I get it. Voltage - speed, current - torque. BTW you got your moto moving again on a new pack?
I am well on the way to getting it running again :wink: I will start a thread on the battery pack build in a few days, currently i am doing some CAD work to design new battery covers.

j bjork   10 kW

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Re: Rieju 50cc conversion

Post by j bjork » Mar 03 2019 12:28pm

eee291 wrote:
Mar 02 2019 5:14pm
This might interest you:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 31&t=75494

Official sales will beginn in the next two months but people have been able get some early, try contacting him.
I am already on the list for a 24 fet :wink:
That is farter away though, if it was just one month it would not be a problem. It will take at least a month to finish the bike anyway. But the 24 fet is several months away, so I am trying to figure out what options there are if I can´t wait..

Thank you all so far, I think the APT would fit. But it would be with just a mm or so to spare..

larsb   1 MW

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Re: Rieju 50cc conversion

Post by larsb » Mar 03 2019 12:40pm

Thing is that with a powerful controller you want a big battery :D so even if APT physically fits, can you fit enough batteries at the same time?

I liked the votol em150s controller for cheap and high output. Mine got issues after a few hundred kms but i wonder if the root cause was only the controller or the rest of the system.

I'd possibly recommend it :D

jonnydrive   100 W

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Re: Rieju 50cc conversion

Post by jonnydrive » Mar 05 2019 4:36am

larsb wrote:
Mar 03 2019 1:48am
You're probably right ee291, did i have it backwards..

Is it like this?:
Speed controller , voltage is controlled so the requested throttle gives you corresponding voltage to the motor with possibly max current, kv*volt rpm is reached.

Torque controller, current is controlled so it gives corresponding current (no matter what resistance, or wheel spin rpm) until BEMF balances voltage at high rpm

I guess it's not this simple, i should read up on boost/buck converters and PWM, svm etc again :D

In some controller as Kelly KBS-X (that do not have the torque controller as option, at least not the real one), I found the pin 8 marked as "Meter: Current meter". I am going to try to use this pin as feedback of PID algorithm on Arduino to build a "current throttle" instead of a standard "voltage throttle"

Throttle <> Arduino <> Controller
|
Pin 8 (current meter)
|
PID Feedback <

I do not if it can be useful but for sure for hard dirt ride torque controller is very important

jonnydrive   100 W

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Re: Rieju 50cc conversion

Post by jonnydrive » Mar 11 2019 4:34am

I only had a few houses to work to my e-trial but some progress has been made 8)

I used 2 5mm metal plates to fix the motor on the frame.
- On the motor cog side I soldered the plate dirctly to the frame for provides maximum strength.
- On the other side I fixed the plate with 4 6mm bolts.
In this way it will be quite easy to remove the motor.

Capture.JPG
Capture3.JPG

To keep the motor in position I used 2 rims 3d printed on TPU, it prevent vibrations but also allow to tolerate small misalignments between the engine and the frame.
Capture4.JPG
Capture4.JPG (20.23 KiB) Viewed 3222 times


The controller fits perfectly donw the seat

Capture2.JPG
On the next step I am going to cable the motor.

I am looking forward to drive the e-trial with this new motor.

larsb   1 MW

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Re: Rieju 50cc conversion

Post by larsb » Mar 11 2019 4:32pm

That ride will be so nice! I am building batteries currently so have some progress to post. I think i need to kick you out of this thread so you start your own :D

jonnydrive   100 W

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Re: Rieju 50cc conversion

Post by jonnydrive » Mar 13 2019 2:50am

larsb wrote:
Mar 11 2019 4:32pm
That ride will be so nice! I am building batteries currently so have some progress to post. I think i need to kick you out of this thread so you start your own :D
Yep probably yes :wink: but consider that all I build here became from your experience and infos so can we consider my e-trial as the son of your Rieju? :P :P

larsb   1 MW

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Re: Rieju 50cc conversion

Post by larsb » Mar 13 2019 4:33am

Ok, then it needs a name, boy or girl? :D :D

jonnydrive   100 W

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Re: Rieju 50cc conversion

Post by jonnydrive » Mar 15 2019 4:24am

girl obviously ;-)

jonnydrive   100 W

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Re: Rieju 50cc conversion

Post by jonnydrive » Mar 19 2019 6:22am

larsb wrote:
Oct 30 2018 5:20am
Couldn't get the bike moving today. I checked for faults and it seems controller is busted.

It doesn't read correct voltage and "undervoltage" error and "controller failure" is shown. After something like 50 on/off attempts finally controller turns on correctly. It loses the voltage reading again after two more attempts so driving is again lost.

Controller ON is full battery voltage and the B+ and B- is solidly connected, the other parameters like revolutions, high level and low level switch is shown correctly. Don't understand what can cause the voltage reading to get lost,

? maybe someone with controller build knowledge can explain how the voltage sensing circuit might be designed ? maybe it's fixable.
Or is it done in the microcontroller? (ie non fixable)

image.jpeg
image.jpegimage.jpegimage.jpeg

This is sooo extremely annoying. I've had too many controllers dying on me in these five years in the ebike world. Maybe i'll just quit building and buy an e-scooter or something. :lowbatt: :lowbatt: :lowbatt:
I am experimenting exactly the same issue as you reported but on the first time I powered up the Votol controller.
At the beginning only "undervoltage" error appeared, after some tests also the other two errors you reported appeared to the screen.

For me it seems to be resolved using a specific version of the controller tool "EM_V3-EM200-11-English.exe" found here
in folder EM controller > EM200. In this version of the tool I can also change the controller version with the right one(votol-150).

Another tips i made to make the engine spin is replacing domino throttle with an hall throttle (it is a known problem).

I hope it can be also useful also for you

larsb   1 MW

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Re: Rieju 50cc conversion

Post by larsb » Mar 19 2019 6:58am

Was this the program link from my original post? they updated it in this case :wink:
I already fixed the domino throttle issue but i will try this program, thanks!!

jonnydrive   100 W

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Re: Rieju 50cc conversion

Post by jonnydrive » Mar 19 2019 8:10am

larsb wrote:
Mar 19 2019 6:58am
Was this the program link from my original post? they updated it in this case :wink:
I already fixed the domino throttle issue but i will try this program, thanks!!
I think it was, I tried VOTOL-EM-V3-Software Debugging(CAN) , no CAN, tricycle without success

How did you fixed the domino throttle? I need to do the same thing :shock:

larsb   1 MW

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Re: Rieju 50cc conversion

Post by larsb » Mar 19 2019 9:17am

It's in this thread, i added resistors in the potentiometer lines to offset the starting voltage and end voltage of the throttle.

jonnydrive   100 W

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Re: Rieju 50cc conversion

Post by jonnydrive » Mar 25 2019 3:24am

larsb wrote:
Mar 19 2019 9:17am
It's in this thread, i added resistors in the potentiometer lines to offset the starting voltage and end voltage of the throttle.
Yes I tried and it works partially but on heavy deceleration the controller cut-off. My guess is the controller recognizes these fast changes of the resistance as a throttle sensor failure.
I solved for now by replacing the domino ( :cry: ) with an hall sensor throttle. I read on threat you had some uncontrolled cut-off colud be the same issue?

larsb   1 MW

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Re: Rieju 50cc conversion

Post by larsb » Mar 25 2019 10:00am

I don't think so, i had throttle runaways and i guess root cause was short-circuit in the throttle wires. It's very scary when you have a powerful setup..

I have scrapped the domino :D (still think it's great but it had to go after the runaway issues, might just replace it with a new one)

larsb   1 MW

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Re: Rieju 50cc conversion

Post by larsb » Apr 04 2019 4:16pm

battery build started here: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 14&t=99492
i'll get back to this thread once i've completed the pack and start mounting it :D

larsb   1 MW

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Re: Rieju 50cc conversion

Post by larsb » May 13 2019 3:40pm

Clanarn wrote:
Jan 03 2019 7:31pm
Larsb,
The apt96600 sounds quite amazing for its price.
But something that dosent really appears is the max battery current it pulls.
Do you have any clues about that number?
Thanks
I tried the new batteries today :D

Edit:only 250A is possible to set in program. See later post!
Last edited by larsb on Feb 26 2020 1:10am, edited 3 times in total.

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