Specialized Epic Expert FS Frame for HD1000

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Specialized Epic Expert FS Frame for HD1000

Post by waynebergman » Jul 18 2018 8:39pm

specialized epic expert.jpg
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Hoping to get back into a full suspension Mountain Bike. I am very happy with the HD1000 and want this for the drive on the next bike but I just don't see anything out there in a decent FS bike were I can fit the HD motor up into the front triangle. Over the past couple of years I have broken a collar bone and taken a few other spills because of low ground clearance on my e-bikes. My low ground clearance has been because of either too small of a rear wheel on a hub drive or my HD utter hanging too low for riding steeper descents with normal sized rear wheel. I have found one folder bike on this forum that holds the HD up nice in the front triangle but it is a hard tail so its not of interest to me.

The photo attached here shows a nice looking Specialized Epic Expert that has the kind of look that may let a person tuck the HD up in the frame and also allow for a battery pack.

I have test ridden a lot bikes over the years and the store bought stuff with the bosh or yamaha motors are not of interest to me at all, as they have no throttle, too low of power output and no programming ability.

Really hoping I can find a solution with a frame to fit the HD 1000. Also not interested in a cyclone style motor as too noisy so its a search for a frame or bike that will work with the HD. Any one that can give advise as to a FS frame that will fit the HD in the front triangle would be greatly appreciated. ............wayne

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Re: Specialized Epic Expert FS Frame for HD1000

Post by Hillhater » Jul 18 2018 9:24pm

Not interested in a ultra Max integrated drive ?
Many frames available for those now.

Or the 4kW Coaxial Cyclone that is reported to be much quieter than the chain drive cyclones..
Image
http://www.cyclone-tw.com/Elitebike.html
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Re: Specialized Epic Expert FS Frame for HD1000

Post by Tommm » Jul 18 2018 9:56pm

Hillhater wrote:
Jul 18 2018 9:24pm

Or the 4kW Coaxial Cyclone that is reported to be much quieter than the chain drive cyclones..
Depends on what he wants.
~700W/45kph/28mph
- If an electric mountainbike is the goal and you want to do everything a regular mountainbike is capable of, get a factory e-mtb and get it uncorked. It will be more durable and reliable than a DIY kit.
~1500W/60kph/40mph
- If you wanna go faster and further, but don't plan on doing stunts or riding knee deep in mud, your idea of a good mtb frame and the bafang HD1000 DIY is a good one. (I have one of these.)

TBH, if you are coming from a bbs02 or other similar power kit I would skip the HD and go for a more powerful option, but they are very different bikes. You can forget pedaling at this point, you won't be able to keep up nor will you be able to meaningfully contribute at these power levels.

Here you have:
~5000W/90kph/55mph
- If you want a stealth electric dirtbike that is as fast as a 100CC moped and is usable as a long range commuter, the cyclone bike is a good choice if you are otherwise technically inclined. A full build with this bike(triangle battery) will be around 40kgs, you certainly won't be jumping it, but you can abuse it on dirt roads at up to 30mph/50kph just fine (https://youtu.be/c2c6yU0S0Rw?t=6m44s). (Not me in the vid, but I have one of these too.)
-6000w/75kph/45mph
- If you don't care about stealth, want a lot of power but wanna trash it and do some jumps, you can get the sur-ron but you will be probably be bothered on bike paths, or in general by the police. On the other hand the sur-ron is much more refined.

Different kinds of fun for different purposes.
Last edited by Tommm on Jul 18 2018 10:26pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Specialized Epic Expert FS Frame for HD1000

Post by waynebergman » Jul 18 2018 10:15pm

Thanks Hillhater for the info. No I have not tried the ultra Max integrated drive but not interested in these drives for a few reasons..... I have rode torque sensing drives and I can see they would be nice for keeping pace with other riders at a given speed with out nursing the throttle but for me I find the combination of my choice of the different power levels and the choice of gearing and the throttle to fine tune the HD on the fly is all I really want or need. The ultra Max integrated drive means you have a frame that is only good for that motor and that is it, so that is a non starter for me.

Good to hear that Cyclone is doing a quieter unit. I don't much care for the store bought cyclone FS bike, looks kind of like a wall mart special, I want a REAL mountain bike, 1500 watts of quiet tuneable power with the PAS system up in the front triangle. I may have to wait for the right frame for this to happen. I also am not in a position to buy such a frame right now anyways but keeping my fingers crossed that a decent frame will become available for use with the HD1000.

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Re: Specialized Epic Expert FS Frame for HD1000

Post by Tommm » Jul 18 2018 10:23pm

waynebergman wrote:
Jul 18 2018 10:15pm
I may have to wait for the right frame for this to happen. I also am not in a position to buy such a frame right now anyways but keeping my fingers crossed that a decent frame will become available for use with the HD1000.
Sadly mtb frames are all getting curved and there is not a lot of hope of ever having straight tubes again on them, which means your motor will be hanging pretty low. The frame you linked in the OP is probably as good as you are gonna get for that purpose.
A tip: you can buy a larger frame size and the triangle will be bigger accepting a bigger battery or the same one more easily. You can then adjust the seat, handlebars and whatnot lower to compensate. When in doubt always get the bigger frame if you wanna build an ebike on it.

There are a few custom made, high powered mid drive frames but their price is well above $5000 so I didn't include them.

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Re: Specialized Epic Expert FS Frame for HD1000

Post by Hillhater » Jul 18 2018 10:29pm

Tommm,
Wayne has built and ridden many Ebikes (check some of his threads)., but he is looking for a frame (Full Sus, mtb ) that will give maximum ground clearance for log hopping etc.
In order to do that he is focussing on trying to mount his BbHD INSIDE the frame, but there are few good FS frames that will do that.....hence i suggest a switch to the integrated drives.... (but i see he doesnt want that either !)
Wayne, you are very handy with the tools, have you considered modifying a frame to fit the drive above the downtube ? It should only be a reworking of the one lower tube . (Just a brain fart on my part :D )
Last edited by Hillhater on Jul 18 2018 10:34pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Specialized Epic Expert FS Frame for HD1000

Post by waynebergman » Jul 18 2018 10:33pm

Thanks Tommm, I would be using the bike for multi purpose like my fat tire hard tail I ride now. Road trips for groceries, single track riding is my main enjoyment and general cross country riding. Of first importance if I am going to ditch the fat tire for a full suspension is getting the HD1000 up into the front triangle. My fat tire is very cool for riding in the snow and dessert sand etc but my ageing body wants to return to a full suspension ride.

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Re: Specialized Epic Expert FS Frame for HD1000

Post by Tommm » Jul 18 2018 11:09pm

I'm not aware there are any frames where mounting the BBSHD is possible inside the triangle, as you know it is one piece, the cyclone with plastic gears and a lubed chain will be quiet enough and can be mounted further away, same can be done with a tangent.

Other than that it is pretty much only hub motor FS frames out there.

If you watch the video I linked you can see what is capable with the cyclone bike, I wouldn't personally push it further than that, obviously easier roads are doable faster.

I have a Scott carbon FS XC bike with a bafang mid drive (20kg) an the cyclone FS bike (40kg) and the cyclone bike is by far more comfortable. Reasons: 50mm more travel, coils as opposed to air suspension front and rear, steel frame, .2 inch bigger tires and perhaps most importantly weight to smooth it all out.

Personally I would not go back to the hassle of elaborate external reduction gears, either hub or integrated solutions for me.

If you are open to modifying a frame as Hillhater wrote, you can look at this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=95312
My comment there is quite relevant.
In this case you can replace the BB with a Bafang ultra or a cyclone coaxial drive.

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Re: Specialized Epic Expert FS Frame for HD1000

Post by Hillhater » Jul 19 2018 9:03am

another Specialised frame ..seems to be even more open, Carbon though.
but im still not sure the bafang will fit.
Image
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Re: Specialized Epic Expert FS Frame for HD1000

Post by waynebergman » Jul 19 2018 9:26am

Thanks Hillhater, that is a good view of that model. Its seems hard to find good detailed photos taken from the non drive side of the bike. With the Drive side being featured in most pics its hard to see into the BB area, so the photo you show is great. It would be handy to have a little card board template cut out or something that could rest against a bikes BB shell from inside the triangle and visit a few bike shops to check for a candidate. I am sure I am not the first person to go down this road, so maybe some one will chime in with first hand info. ............wayne

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Re: Specialized Epic Expert FS Frame for HD1000

Post by SlowCo » Jul 19 2018 10:27am

68mm-measurements.jpg
BBSHD clearance for BB.jpg
BBSHD clearance for BB.jpg (123.83 KiB) Viewed 1704 times
The "extra" problem a BBSHD has that makes it harder to put it in modern FS frames is the clearance between the axle and the motor. As you can see on most modern FS frames the amount of frame material above/on top of the bottom bracket is too much/thick to be able to mount a BBSHD "inside" the triangle.

I suspect you'll need to forget the BBSHD and look for a Cyclone (with custom mounting plates) or Tangent type mid drive motor solution.

Cyclone:
4kwps.jpg
4kwps.jpg (24.43 KiB) Viewed 1704 times


Tangent:
20180628_154630.jpg
20180628_154630.jpg (113.64 KiB) Viewed 1704 times
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=70099&start=1175

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Re: Specialized Epic Expert FS Frame for HD1000

Post by waynebergman » Jul 19 2018 11:08am

Thanks for this Slowco. Yes the Tangent drive has caught my eye in the past for sure. I think its the best unit out there, love the big reduction and the quality of the unit. The HD 1000 has one more drawback besides hanging low and that is the gear reduction is not big enough so you can't really add any MEANINGFUL pedal input when the motor is in its happy zone. The two biggest problems with these HD1000 units in my opinion is the low hang of the motor and the poorly suited reduction to match any kind of meaningful pedal input.

The Tangent drives are pricey and I would guess a bit louder that the HD1000 but this may be the best choice if I want battery pack and motor up in the front triangle with quality. The noise of the Tangent drive and the cost is a bit has me on the fence for now.

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Re: Specialized Epic Expert FS Frame for HD1000

Post by Baron » Jul 19 2018 2:57pm

I don't think the bbshd can be mounted inside a triangle without a bit of modification. I think it could be done on certain frames by grinding away the frame tubes in the triangle near the BB just enough so the motor can fit, then reinforcing that part of the triangle with metal plates.

Or do what this guy did and completely rebuild the BB area:
image bbshd 778.png
image bbshd 778.png (477.98 KiB) Viewed 1683 times

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Re: Specialized Epic Expert FS Frame for HD1000

Post by Hillhater » Jul 19 2018 4:48pm

Wayne,..
Take a look at the. Electricbike blog site that Tommm and Baron have shown results from. In particular this page https://electricbike-blog.com/2018/03/0 ... g-already/
I think your only option for using that bbsHD is to modify a frame.
That guy (Karl) has done a few ..the one i linked only cost him a few bucks to get professionally welded.
There is a lot of other info on that site for bbsHD and other drive options
Personally , i still think the coaxial cyclone is apealing if you can mod a frame .
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Re: Specialized Epic Expert FS Frame for HD1000

Post by waynebergman » Jul 19 2018 6:21pm

Thanks guys for the tips. I am a big fan of Karls site and I have learned a lot from Karl however I don't like that torque sensor drive that Bafang makes that Karl made work on his beater bike. I also don't want to go the route of cut and weld as this time - I want a decent FS bike and don't want to risk wrecking the bike.

Karl made a good choice on a frame to choose for that project from a SAFETY point of view. Its a crap frame but IF the fabrication work fails, it just means the motor falls off and the frame does not collapse on itself so I do like what he has done for that reason - but that bike is not what I want to ride around on. I will continue to keep my fingers crossed for a quality xc or All Mountain Frame that will work with the HD1000 or maybe one day I just open up my wallet (and plug my ears :) for the Tangent.

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Re: Specialized Epic Expert FS Frame for HD1000

Post by Hillhater » Jul 23 2018 3:38am

still cannot find a suitable open frame to get the HD drive inside the triangle, but there seem to bee more and more integrated drives appearing..
this is the Haibike flyon , 750W, 120Nm torque..$$6k+.??
https://www.emtb-news.de/news/en/haibike-flyon-2019/
Image,,
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Re: Specialized Epic Expert FS Frame for HD1000

Post by Gab » Jul 23 2018 4:50am

viewtopic.php?f=28&t=83578

this build thread is best one i have seen with a cyclone inside the frame makeing it the ultimate conversion .. he has done dozens of builds before it ..power with quietness unlike the tangent

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Re: Specialized Epic Expert FS Frame for HD1000

Post by waynebergman » Jul 29 2018 1:24pm

News to me that the Bafang M600 can be run with throttle. I guess I have not been paying attention to these drives as most of the frames don't look like real mountain bikes. This thread here viewtopic.php?f=3&t=94960 has really caught my eye. If I can get a motor mount sloping up towards the head tube like shown in the green bike in the link and also have a 27.5" plus sized tires and a lighter weight bike with throttle I am very very interested. Just not sure on max amperage that you can run through these motors. Bike looks good, utilizes down tube for battery pack placement, good ground clearance etc etc.

I am not so in love with the HD1000 but I am in love with the throttle so that is my main reason thinking the HD1000 would be the motor of choice. Not to have a throttle is a non starter for me on the store bought stuff so pretty excited to follow this thread linked above to see how it all pans out as the frame shown in the start of the post looks worth looking into. Sounds like there is also in the works a 1000 wh pack option.

Regarding cyclone, no that is not of interest to me, looks kind of junky and noisy.

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Re: Specialized Epic Expert FS Frame for HD1000

Post by PRW » Jul 29 2018 1:54pm

Wayne, what about the bikee motor, as an alternative to the BBSHD? https://www.bikeebike.com/products.html

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Re: Specialized Epic Expert FS Frame for HD1000

Post by waynebergman » Jul 29 2018 6:48pm

Thanks PRW but that thing is an eye sore at best. Not only is it putting extra weight on only one side of the bike making for an unbalanced
ride but it also states only having a 10-1 reduction. Even the Bafang HD is missing the boat with their smallish reduction being not enough and this unit is less. This means when the motor is just in its happy zone you can not add any meaningful pedal input because of the too small at 10-1 reduction. Too many strikes at first glance in there promotion stuff before even getting to the pictures. YIKES!

Also I don't want to seem too dissrespectfull or harsh sounding to someones product but I want a serious mountain bike that is quiet, good ground clearance, throttle etc etc and this thing is more like take me to the store on pavement for a quart of milk. I just state this here so others can realize the possible shortcomings of this drive.
Last edited by waynebergman on Jul 29 2018 7:19pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Specialized Epic Expert FS Frame for HD1000

Post by Hillhater » Jul 29 2018 7:06pm

waynebergman wrote:
Jul 29 2018 6:48pm
. Non only is it putting extra weight on only one side of the bike unbalanced but it only has a 10 reduction. Even the Bafang HD is missing the boat with they reduction being not enough and this unit is less......
.....so I am getting a little picky :) .
Wayne, i wouldnt get too hung up on gear internal ratios, ..what matters is the output torque and chainwheel rpm.
Gear reduction will have been designed to match the motor rpm ,..itself a function of motor winding KV and voltage used....to the required maximum chainwheel speed . (Think of hub motor designs)
I suspect (no info) that the "Bikeee" motor has a very low KV and hence lower rpm than the Bafang etc.
Im not at all supporting the Bikeee design, but i would expect that a lower rpm motor rpm would at least be a quieter drive than designs like the Tangent , Cyclone, or even the Bafang.
Why do you say the Bafang HD doesnt have "enough" reduction ?..
....does it not have enough torque, or is the crank rpm too high currently ?....
.. The HD motor is a larger dia than the bbsO2 etc, which would suggest there is more torque /less rpm, at the motor , hence needing a lower reduction to the crank chainwheel.
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Re: Specialized Epic Expert FS Frame for HD1000

Post by waynebergman » Jul 29 2018 7:31pm

thanks Hillhater for the info. The reason I say the HD1000 is lacking reduction is because just when the motor is up and spinning nicely and in its efficient and happy zone you are unable to catch up to the motor with your pedals. In my opinion the HD should have a gear reduction of 30-1 at least for to have the pedals catching up to the motors happy zone. Just my opinion. Its fine if you don't want to have pedal input but most of us do. I bet if you tested the motor going up a hill in low gear wound out in high revs with no pedal input (because you cant catch with pedals) it would get better efficiency then if you luged the motor slow enough to add pedal input, its just not reduced enough for effective pedal input. Sure you can take a taller gear from the cassette to catch up with the pedals but the motor is turning so slow its not in its efficient zone. Again just my opinion, have not done a real scientific study.

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Re: Specialized Epic Expert FS Frame for HD1000

Post by Hillhater » Jul 29 2018 8:13pm

Hi Wayne..
I suspect that some of these higher output drive units are not too concerned with efficiency.
They are selling on Wattage numbers and recently promotong the "Torque" numbers also, but you rarely hear efficiency data quoted.
Ideally, every drive should quote the output peak Wattage, Torque, and efficiency, at nominal rpm crank speed, for any specific voltage recommended..
....but none do !
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Re: Specialized Epic Expert FS Frame for HD1000

Post by fechter » Jul 29 2018 10:32pm

I agree the BBSHD could use a little more reduction. If I climb a long hill where the motor is running at a 'normal' cadence for the pedals, it will overheat. If I gear down more, but run the motor at full speed, which is 2-3x faster than a normal cadence, the motor has much less heating and is running much more efficiently. About double the current reduction ration would be good.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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Re: Specialized Epic Expert FS Frame for HD1000

Post by Hillhater » Jul 30 2018 12:56am

fechter wrote:
Jul 29 2018 10:32pm
I agree the BBSHD could use a little more reduction. If I climb a long hill where the motor is running at a 'normal' cadence for the pedals, it will overheat. If I gear down more, but run the motor at full speed, which is 2-3x faster than a normal cadence, the motor has much less heating and is running much more efficiently. About double the current reduction ration would be good.
But that implies you would also halve the maximum speed possible ?
Assuming a 10-11-12 T rear speocket is currently used, there would be few options to regain that top speed.
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