GNG / CYC X1 Pro 3000w

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.
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2old   100 kW

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Re: GNG X1-pro 3000w

Post by 2old » Jan 09 2019 12:45pm

Yes. I weighed the battery, 1499 grams (3.3) pounds) AIR. Total weight of the GT Zaskar bike, 10 pound BBS02 and battery about 34 pounds.

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Re: GNG X1-pro 3000w

Post by n2mb » Jan 09 2019 12:55pm

2old wrote:
Jan 09 2019 12:45pm
Yes; tried to avoid the brand because there are two Luna-haters who would denigrate them, me and/or the product. I weighed the battery, 1499 grams (3.3) pounds) AIR. Total weight of the GT Zaskar bike 10 pound BBS02 and battery about 34 pounds.
Nice! My felt virtue one is 32 lbs as-is, so adding the 3.3 lb battery and 7.7 lb X1 pro motor would put it already at 43 lbs.

I'm leaning towards the Luna wolf battery because I have credit at Luna and it sounds like the 30Q battery should output enough amps to drive the X1 well enough. I am tempted to try the mighty mini, but I think it's probably too small for the x1 pro. My commute is only 2 miles, so I don't need much range!

I do like the bluetooth smart BMS that em3ev has, though!

2old   100 kW

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Re: GNG X1-pro 3000w

Post by 2old » Jan 09 2019 5:02pm

Agree that the larger battery is a more prudent choice. I purchased this battery for my wife's BBS02 bike (although I sneak it on mine too) and have been pleasantly surprised by its performance. One trail, a seven mile 1,500' ascent (14 miles total since the return is all downhill), consumed only 100 wh for her. I'll neither be surprised nor disappointed if it doesn't last as long as the 52V, 10 ah battery which has already had its third birthday and is still going strong.

Andrewol   10 W

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Re: GNG X1-pro 3000w

Post by Andrewol » Jan 15 2019 3:29am

Could anybody enlighten me how this motor set can have almost the same torque as stock BBSHD but to be more than twice powerful by perception, not only by watt numbers?

endrew   1 W

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Re: GNG X1-pro 3000w

Post by endrew » Jan 15 2019 3:37am

In general, power is RPM X Torque. So if two motors generate the same torque, but one do it at double the speed, it will also generate twice the power.

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crossbreak   100 MW

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Re: GNG X1-pro 3000w

Post by crossbreak » Jan 15 2019 4:53am

well spoken

that is the reason why you have no chance to pedal with the motor at nominal power, since the chainring spins way too fast. That is the reason why some want to separate it from the pedal drive https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=97479

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Re: GNG X1-pro 3000w

Post by Andrewol » Jan 15 2019 5:19am

So, with the same rpm at cranks as BBSHD it will have similar power level as well as torque?

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crossbreak   100 MW

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Re: GNG X1-pro 3000w

Post by crossbreak » Jan 15 2019 5:35am

It should actually have a bit more peak torque at the cranks then the BBSHD. I guess if you push 65A battery current into this motor, then it will have more punch even at normal pedal rpm, but wont be efficient enough to not overheat. It needs high rpm to output the claimed 3000W (remember the BBSHD is claimed´to be 1000W output). But this is just my guess, i hope i can test this next week or the week after. i have a BBSHD for comparison and it looks like i am the first who gets hands on the X1-pro pre-production model 8) hopefully next week, if it passes customs quickly.

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Re: GNG X1-pro 3000w

Post by Andrewol » Jan 15 2019 9:21am

As you say it should have a bit more peak torque but more than twice of current consumption. Does it mean X1-Pro is not as efficient as BBSHD which can output the same torque with 30amps of current? Or perhaps X1 peak torque achieved only at 3KW power consumption with very high rpm at cranks? With the same rpm at cranks as BBSHD it should have much lower torque than.

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crossbreak   100 MW

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Re: GNG X1-pro 3000w

Post by crossbreak » Jan 15 2019 4:10pm

in simple words: It can do a bit more then the BBSHD, hopefully at the same or even better efficiency. But it can reach higher rpm, which the BBSHD does not.

Both BBSHD and the X1 are electric motors and thus have their maximum torque from zero rpm till a certain rpm

The BBSHD is about the same size as the X1 and has a similar reduction ratio. So it's very unlikely that it has a lot more torque.
Last edited by crossbreak on Jan 15 2019 4:44pm, edited 1 time in total.

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neptronix   100 GW

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Re: GNG X1-pro 3000w

Post by neptronix » Jan 15 2019 4:40pm

It would be very strange for a 3000w rated, high efficiency design to put out more maximum torque than a 1000w rated, mid efficiency design.

We will know more once somebody has the product in their hands, which supposedly happens in februrary.
Efficiency is everything :bolt:

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

n2mb   100 W

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Re: GNG X1-pro 3000w

Post by n2mb » Jan 15 2019 4:56pm

Torque should be pretty much set by the max current, if the gear reduction and motor winds are about the same. But, I don't see how it matters as much with a mid drive, since we can increase torque by changing gearing. Horsepower should matter more. I'm hoping I can put my bike in the lowest gear possible and rely on a high crank and high chain speed to reach a good top speed (~35 mph). That should minimize the torque on the drivetrain parts and hopefully extend their lifetime.

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crossbreak   100 MW

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Re: GNG X1-pro 3000w

Post by crossbreak » Jan 15 2019 4:58pm

what's the sense of the drive train then? You cant use it to pedal anymore and only use one gear. Sounds senseless to me

endrew   1 W

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Re: GNG X1-pro 3000w

Post by endrew » Jan 15 2019 5:52pm

I don't understand people who want a 3KW system as a "pedal assist". I you want to pedal get a 250-500W electric system. it will be much lighter, cheaper and more efficient.

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crossbreak   100 MW

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Re: GNG X1-pro 3000w

Post by crossbreak » Jan 15 2019 5:55pm

endrew wrote:
Jan 15 2019 5:52pm
I don't understand people who want a 3KW system as a "pedal assist".[...]
me neither, i'd like a 5kW that's just slightly more lightweight :wink: and with real torque sensing bottom bracket combined with a real torque throttle controller, so pedal torque is linearily amplified by a factor of 10

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Re: GNG X1-pro 3000w

Post by endrew » Jan 15 2019 6:03pm

well, one might say that my pedal power is amplified by infinity!

You think your pedaling adds something noticeable to 5KW?

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crossbreak   100 MW

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Re: GNG X1-pro 3000w

Post by crossbreak » Jan 15 2019 6:09pm

yes. exactly 1/11. thats almost 10%. if i really manage to add 454Watt :oops:
Last edited by crossbreak on Jan 15 2019 6:13pm, edited 1 time in total.

n2mb   100 W

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Re: GNG X1-pro 3000w

Post by n2mb » Jan 15 2019 6:11pm

5kW on a mountain bike was a bit much for me in my last build. It was an accidental wheelie monster.

I have that now on my Sur Ron and it is much more manageable. 2-3 kW seems pretty good for a sub 50 lb mount bike.

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crossbreak   100 MW

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Re: GNG X1-pro 3000w

Post by crossbreak » Jan 15 2019 6:17pm

that depends higly on the wheelbase and fork angle. A downhill bike is always a good start for a 3kw+ build. Donttry to put so much power to an XC mountainbike. The X1 is made for downhillers

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Re: GNG X1-pro 3000w

Post by Grantmac » Jan 15 2019 6:24pm

35MPH would be PLENTY for me and ideally done through an extremely overbuilt dedicated driveline.

Adding "your" watts to it wouldn't be significant at low speed, but it definitely could add quite a bit of range at the higher end since you'd be bringing the motor closer to its no-load speed.

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crossbreak   100 MW

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Re: GNG X1-pro 3000w

Post by crossbreak » Jan 15 2019 7:03pm

i dont really care to add some real power/raise efficiency of the motor. For me this is a nice way to control the "throttle" and to train my legs...i mean if i really want those 5kW i have to push really hard. Cant push so hard all the time (the motor cant do this as well) so i wont. Summurized reasons why i want real linear torque control:

[*] superman feeling
[*] no need to hold the throttle, free hands driving is always possible
[*] (hopefully) keep my body in shape
[*] simply the best way to control an ebike, Bosch, Shimano etc. sell so good for a reason

endrew   1 W

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Re: GNG X1-pro 3000w

Post by endrew » Jan 16 2019 12:28am

The reason it sells so good is that the eu standard makes it mandatory...

And if you bike are ment for offroad riding, this is avery bad methode for contrling the power since you need to be standing up most of the time

Drum   100 W

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Re: GNG X1-pro 3000w

Post by Drum » Jan 16 2019 4:37am

Hi Endrew,

I can't agree with your comment that torque sensing is a "very bad" way to control an e-bike.

You may have ridden one or more bikes controlled by PAS (Cadence sensing) or even badly programmed torque sensing control, and formed the impression that it is a bad method to control an e-bike. I certainly have ridden several that were very bad.
However, I have also ridden a few with torque sensing control that was well programmed, and they were (to me) fantastic to ride.

Also: why should torque sensing control require you to stand up most of the time? Whenever I am riding offroad on rough terrain at medium or high speeds I am usually standing up anyway (on a powered or unpowered bike), but I cannot see why torque sensing control would force you to stand up more often.. quite the opposite as you could grind your way up a steeper hill while seated due to the power assistance available.

To me, the bikes with a throttle feel like light motorbikes, but the bikes with well-implemented torque sensing feel like bicycles.. sure, the world flows backwards faster, hills seem less steep etc but still your pedaling effort is rewarded with proportional power to the back wheel... and I prefer riding bicycles.

If you prefer a throttle, that's fine. I won't tell you that you should prefer something different.. we are all different, our bikes are different, we ride in different terrain, and as long as we are all enjoying ourselves that's great. But I hope that one day you get to ride a bike with well set up torque sensing control, and realize that it is actually safe, effective and enjoyable.

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Re: GNG X1-pro 3000w

Post by endrew » Jan 16 2019 5:48am

Drum wrote:
Jan 16 2019 4:37am
Hi Endrew,

I can't agree with your comment that torque sensing is a "very bad" way to control an e-bike.

You may have ridden one or more bikes controlled by PAS (Cadence sensing) or even badly programmed torque sensing control, and formed the impression that it is a bad method to control an e-bike. I certainly have ridden several that were very bad.
However, I have also ridden a few with torque sensing control that was well programmed, and they were (to me) fantastic to ride.

Also: why should torque sensing control require you to stand up most of the time? Whenever I am riding offroad on rough terrain at medium or high speeds I am usually standing up anyway (on a powered or unpowered bike), but I cannot see why torque sensing control would force you to stand up more often.. quite the opposite as you could grind your way up a steeper hill while seated due to the power assistance available.

To me, the bikes with a throttle feel like light motorbikes, but the bikes with well-implemented torque sensing feel like bicycles.. sure, the world flows backwards faster, hills seem less steep etc but still your pedaling effort is rewarded with proportional power to the back wheel... and I prefer riding bicycles.

If you prefer a throttle, that's fine. I won't tell you that you should prefer something different.. we are all different, our bikes are different, we ride in different terrain, and as long as we are all enjoying ourselves that's great. But I hope that one day you get to ride a bike with well set up torque sensing control, and realize that it is actually safe, effective and enjoyable.
You did not understand me correctly - I am saying that since you have to stand up a lot of the time when riding off-road, it is uncomfortable to pedal while standing in order to engage the motor. It makes more sense to use the throttle.

Regarding your comment - "To me, the bikes with a throttle feel like light motorbikes" - a bike with 3-5KW should feel like a motorcycle! what I'm saying is that if you want a bike that feels like a bicycle why do you need 5KW? wouldn't 500W be enough for PAS?

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crossbreak   100 MW

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Re: GNG X1-pro 3000w

Post by crossbreak » Jan 16 2019 11:31am

we are not talking about PAS, yes 500W is ok for PAS. We are talking about real torque sensing and a well adjusted setup with a torque mode throttle controller. that's a whole different story.

unfonrtunataly the X1 wont be able to add those 3kW when using the torque sensing due its high rpm at the cranks, this is my criticism here. But hey, let's try it anyway, the first batches will comes with only with PAS anyway but according to Jon, the torque sensing BB is something that can be ordered seperately, maybe in april or so

IMO what Adam plans with his LMX 64 and i with my dual chain X1 might work better in the end. The LMX tend to be quite load to the high single stage chain reduction. I'll try to make a side by side comparison as soon as i have it up and running. Merlin finally got his LMX 161 in December, i met him yesterday and we plan to meet again for a ride as soon as my X1 bike with dual chain setup is done

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