Bikee Bike final review

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.
elementary   10 W

10 W
Posts: 82
Joined: Jun 04 2013 9:19am
Location: Pennsylvania

Bikee Bike final review

Post by elementary » Sep 06 2018 10:56am

Someone who builds ebikes for a hobby should be accustomed to surprises and challenges, but never such disappointments as with the Bikee Bike motor and controller. The online material promoting Bikee Bike and some youtube videos are convincing enough, but if your experiences are with Bafangs BBS-HD's, your expectations are too high.

It is politically correct to start a review with some good things, but no, because nobody should buy a Bikee Bike motor for the following.

1. Bad Display: The cell phone app interface is terrible... too many reasons to explain

2. Low Power: Even at 20s - 72v and with 150 amp capable batteries it's not a powerful motor... a dog if compared to a Cyclone 3000 at 20s

3. Too Loud: It sounds like an electric drill even in the PAS mode and its louder than the Cyclone 3000 under high throttle loads...

4. Primitive Programming: Adjustments on the Bikee cell phone app have not resolved the PAS abrupt behavior nor the too long PAS sustain... and lackluster throttle response. Again, these are expectation from Bafang displays and pc programming cable

5. Durability: Do not expect Bikee Bike would hold up very long as a Trail Bike.
Example: The exposed HAL wires between the controller and motor are the same wires and connectors used on brake and throttles. Those type wires are ok on a handle bar,s but inadequate when inches from wheel in the proximity of mud, sticks, stones and ice... The jury is still out the results of a poorly executed log crossing,

6. Too expensive: Hard to justify the cost of a Bikee Bike motor when compared to Bafangs or Cyclones. There is nothing about the Bikee Bike motor to justify its high price... as a complete kit, it is almost the cost of a Sur-ron

User avatar
amberwolf   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 25138
Joined: Aug 17 2009 6:43am
Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth, Sol, Local Bubble, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group
Contact:

Re: Bikee Bike final review

Post by amberwolf » Sep 06 2018 8:51pm

You might want to link to the other stuff you have on ES about the build(s) used for the testing, so people can see all the details.

User avatar
Pilot Engineer   100 mW

100 mW
Posts: 36
Joined: Dec 12 2013 2:55am

Re: Bikee Bike final review

Post by Pilot Engineer » Sep 22 2018 8:49am

Hi Walter,

despite of all the things you said, at the end you kept the motor even if we offered a full refund, so you must have found something good enough to keep it rather than buying two BBSHD motors.

From the final email you sent to me, you said that you were only 60% satisified with the motor, and your reasons for that were:

- 20 Percent for the exposed HAL cables that will limit it survivability in woods or snow riding.

- 20 Percent because of cost... $1200.00 should be the maximum price for motor and controller.

Now we never had problems with the HALL cables from any of our customers ( neither you!!!). For sure if you plan to break them with snow nails you'll find a way to accomplish that, but if you don't want to break them, you'll succeed either.

About the cost: accordingly to your judgement our motor is $400 more expensive than what you consider a fair value.

So my understanding is that if you would have paid the Bikee Bike motor + controller $1200 and you won't have any problems with the HALL wiring, you'd be 100% satisfied .

And I guess you have reasons for that: in your previous post ( here: viewtopic.php?f=28&t=95823&p=1406898#p1406898 ) you reported:

1) That the Bikee Bike motor 1500W is faster than a Cyclone 3000W motor and you reached a top speed of 39mph before you had to slow down for turns
2) That the BEST has a absorbed power of 3173W, placing the motor well above what a BBSHD can do.

As you only measure the power basing on the battery amp draw, you're totally blind to the real motor power or torque. Have you ever considered that the BEST could deliver more torque and power at the wheel than the other motors you love to mention, because has higher efficiency under load?

About your points, let's go through them:

1) Bad display: this is what our display looks like.
Image
and here's how it works: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... 2jGWNMpNd0

2) Low power: with our system you reached 3173W and 39mph. We have customers ( ES members ) who reached 50mph. So it has higher speed, higher torque than the Cyclone 3000W and than the BBSHD. You reached an higher speed than with your Cyclone ( isn't power all about speed?) so that looks like a fast dog!

3) Too loud: you posted a video keeping the crankarms still. I explained you that the sound you hear is the ratchet clutch and that if the crankarms are spinning that sound will go away. From your previous post, you said that BEST 1500 is louder than a Bafang, but quiter than a Cyclone when you pedal. In your appreciation review about Cyclone motor on Luna Cycle shop, you didn't mention that the Cyclone sounds like a drill.

4) Primitive programming: Here are the features of the BEST app:
a)100 levels of assist,
b) throttle taming to smoothen the acceleration,
c) you can downgrade the power to any of the lower power version ( 250W, 500W, 600W, 749W, 999W) on the fly with the app,
d) unlock full power with the RACE button,
e) three different driving modes: PAS, torque sensor (emulator on the system without the hardware), throttle.
f) three customizable presets, to switch from one to the other on the fly, with just one button.
g) throttle override function: you can set the assist to, as an example, 20% and as you start pedaling the motor will assist you at 20%, then when you want more power, you can use the throttle to go up to 100% assist. When you release the throttle, the assistance will go down to the original assistance ( 20% in this example).
h)) All the above settings are wrapped to the user, so as soon as a different rider uses the bike with his phone, his personal settings will be automatically uploaded, without touching anything. You don't have to connect the PC to change them all the times...
Is that a primitive programming?

5. Durability: do you expect more or less durability from motors with power exceeding 1000W with plastic gears? Because I think that both Cyclone and Bafang have plastic gears while all our gears are made in case hardened steel. And internet is full of people looking a substitute for broken plastic gears.

6. Accordingly to your opinion, we're $400 more expensive than what would 100% satisfy you. With the new tariffs on chinese motors I guess the gap with chinese competition will narrow.

Plus you didn't mention that you have more ground clearance, higher torque ( 160Nm) than other motors, case hardened steel gears, easiness of installation ( you had to make custom plates for your Cyclone build, what was the cost and time for those?), perfect chainline, double CNC machined hard anodized aluminum chainring, clean installation ( please post a picture of your cyclone built vs the Bikee Bike build).

Walter, do you have any interest in trying to picture the Cyclone and Bafang motors better than the others? Please explain that because all your previous posts about other motors are at the same level of this one. You only seem to appreciate what's sold on Luna Cycle webshop and try to put down anything else. And the length of your appreciation comment for Cyclone motor on Luna website gives me a strong hint about that.

All the Best
Matteo Spaggiari
CEO
Bikee Bike
www.bikeebike.com

elementary   10 W

10 W
Posts: 82
Joined: Jun 04 2013 9:19am
Location: Pennsylvania

Re: Bikee Bike final review

Post by elementary » Sep 23 2018 8:58am

Thanks but still unimpressed

I only kept the motor because I didn't want shiping hassle and I liked the boxπŸ˜€

Bikee is now installed in a studded tire snow bike and should provide us some fun in the snow.

I do not see it as viable motor otherwise...

User avatar
neptronix   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 12725
Joined: Jun 15 2010 5:56pm
Location: California refugee living in Utah, USA
Contact:

Re: Bikee Bike final review

Post by neptronix » Sep 23 2018 11:05am

Sounds like some of this stuff can be fixed after the fact.

Throwing an external controller on it and ditching all the electronics other than the motor itself is what i typically do, because i have literally never bought anything tuned correctly out of the box.

Steel gears are most likely the reason for the wretched sound, and that's not so easily remedied. Correctly engineered nylon gears are amazingly tough. Just look at the MAC motors.. over many revisions, they've got the planetary transmission down to a science.

The PAS problems are common.. even the bafangs have it.. there's about a half second between the time you stop pedaling and the power stops, which gets more dangerous the higher the power level gets. Some controllers are set up so that a single rotation along a PAS sensor magnet shoots out full power, which can send you rocketing into traffic if you nudge the pedal at a stop.. this is just lazy controller programming/design.. my solution is to ditch PAS and go throttle only.. which is fine.
My first major build: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The wheelie machine: 20" Rear Magic Pie II on a Trek 4300 MTB

"The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is now."- Chinese Proverb

Tommm   100 W

100 W
Posts: 207
Joined: Apr 03 2018 2:32am

Re: Bikee Bike final review

Post by Tommm » Sep 23 2018 12:22pm

Cyclone sells metal gears and even includes it if you ask when you buy. Luna put metal gears in ludi controller ultra motor.

How does it pull 3100w when it is marketed as 999w? If it is aftermarket controller, why are you comparing it to bafang and cyclone stock controller? If it is stock controller, why are you marketing it as 999w when that isn't the case?
neptronix wrote: ↑
Sep 23 2018 11:05am
... my solution is to ditch PAS and go throttle only.. which is fine.
This is also what I've found. Above a few kw PAS makes no sense. You can still pedal and feather the throttle, or use cruise control.

User avatar
Pilot Engineer   100 mW

100 mW
Posts: 36
Joined: Dec 12 2013 2:55am

Re: Bikee Bike final review

Post by Pilot Engineer » Sep 23 2018 12:56pm

@Tommm, the motor he's referring to is the 1500w. We label the motor with the true continuous power output at the chainring (torque * speed ) , not with the peak power consumption ( V * I) of the battery. That is how motor manufacturer are supposed to rate their motors. So the 1500w motor can deliver continuously 1500w without overheating at 48V. It has a peak power consumption of 50A, so 2500w at 48V and 3500W at 72V.

@neptronix: the noise is coming from the controller which is not sine wave. If you couple it with a sine wave controller the motor has the sound of a breeze. That will come soon.

User avatar
neptronix   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 12725
Joined: Jun 15 2010 5:56pm
Location: California refugee living in Utah, USA
Contact:

Re: Bikee Bike final review

Post by neptronix » Sep 23 2018 1:56pm

Surprised it doesn't come with a sinewave already.
Metal gears are still going to add some noise.

PS, about power.. the cyclone 3000W's motor might be underrated.. no surprise it is much faster when over volted/amped..
I've found that motor ratings are not consistent across manufacturers. Sometimes a 1500w continuous motor can do 2000w continuous. Other times, a 1500w motor is 1000w continuous. One has to refer to a dyno sheet on a motor in order to get a better idea of how it was rated.

For example, the leafmotor 1500w was rated 1500w, but 1500w is it's peak efficiency point. A motor of that size can dissipate more than the ~150 watts at peak efficiency, so the real rating with wind passing by is closer to 2000w.

A RC motor with the same figures might not be able to dissipate 150w adequately unless it's in a RC helicopter doing 100mph. In a helicopter, the rating is 2500w because of wind speed plus the fact that it will only operate for ~10 minutes. Go climb a hill on a bike at 30mph and the real rating might be as low as 750w continuous in that condition.

So there's a fine science to rating motors. Most manufacturers get it wrong. I depend on dyno graphs and educated guesses to get a real idea of what a motor can do.
My first major build: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The wheelie machine: 20" Rear Magic Pie II on a Trek 4300 MTB

"The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is now."- Chinese Proverb

User avatar
Pilot Engineer   100 mW

100 mW
Posts: 36
Joined: Dec 12 2013 2:55am

Re: Bikee Bike final review

Post by Pilot Engineer » Sep 23 2018 4:42pm

I agree with you about the fine science about motor rating. We consider the continuous rating the power at which the motor can run without increasing the winding temperature more than 2 celsius degrees per hour, having the same wind speed you'd have with the a 44t - 11t gear combination, at an outside air temp of 25 celsius degrees.

About the metal gears: when we tested the motor with sinewave controller ( grin phaserunner) the wind in your ears is louder than the motor.

andrebandre   10 W

10 W
Posts: 77
Joined: Dec 02 2015 8:17am

Re: Bikee Bike final review

Post by andrebandre » Sep 24 2018 4:04am

As far as loudness, at least with a Phaserunner, doesn't seem bad at all. Quite the contrary.
It's been on my shopping list for quite a while, it is the fact that it's offset to one side that prevented me from getting it already.
I don't believe an engineer with a background in electrical motors can design a crappy product. It would go too much against the grain.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5URcuJonzU

User avatar
Pilot Engineer   100 mW

100 mW
Posts: 36
Joined: Dec 12 2013 2:55am

Re: Bikee Bike final review

Post by Pilot Engineer » Sep 24 2018 5:02am

andrebandre wrote: ↑
Sep 24 2018 4:04am
It's been on my shopping list for quite a while, it is the fact that it's offset to one side that prevented me from getting it already.
Andre, both sides are offset and the crankarms are at a symmetrical distance from the bike center line. The Q factor is increased of 2 inches in total comparing to the original bike. We never experienced a problem with that. Just when you're turning, if you leave the internal pedal down, you'd touch sooner. That's it.

Matteo

andrebandre   10 W

10 W
Posts: 77
Joined: Dec 02 2015 8:17am

Re: Bikee Bike final review

Post by andrebandre » Sep 24 2018 7:06pm

Thank you Matteo!
I use shorter cranks on powerful motors anyway so pedal strokes are never a concern.
I don't even pretend to pedal on my commuter, i have both cranks mounted in parallel as foot pegs which i plan to do anyway with the Bikee Bike motor.
Attachments
DSC00609.JPG

User avatar
neptronix   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 12725
Joined: Jun 15 2010 5:56pm
Location: California refugee living in Utah, USA
Contact:

Re: Bikee Bike final review

Post by neptronix » Sep 24 2018 7:50pm

Q factor is a big problem for those of us who have bad leg geometry *raises hand*. It's why i haven't embraced the mid drive, after owning a BBS02 for a very short period of time.

That's cool that you designed it so that the pedals are symmetrical. I'm still kind of holding out for a mid drive that maintains the more narrow pedal spacing that comes stock on most bikes. I doubt such a thing exists. Wide pedals hurt me.

Otherwise i would have jumped all over your mid drive, because i really like the design of it.
My first major build: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The wheelie machine: 20" Rear Magic Pie II on a Trek 4300 MTB

"The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is now."- Chinese Proverb

andrebandre   10 W

10 W
Posts: 77
Joined: Dec 02 2015 8:17am

Re: Bikee Bike final review

Post by andrebandre » Sep 24 2018 11:42pm

Pilot Engineer wrote: ↑
Sep 23 2018 12:56pm
@neptronix: the noise is coming from the controller which is not sine wave. If you couple it with a sine wave controller the motor has the sound of a breeze. That will come soon.
The last sentence, does it mean you are working on a sine wave controller?

User avatar
Pilot Engineer   100 mW

100 mW
Posts: 36
Joined: Dec 12 2013 2:55am

Re: Bikee Bike final review

Post by Pilot Engineer » Sep 25 2018 1:24am

neptronix wrote: ↑
Sep 24 2018 7:50pm

Otherwise i would have jumped all over your mid drive, because i really like the design of it.
neptronix: We have a new motor coming out, perhaps that will work for you. It's an OEM motor, so it requires custom frame, but if you can manage to do some modification to an existing frame, then you can get the mid drive with the smallest Q factor. It has a 120mm shaft and you can see it here: https://www.bikeebike.com/blog/boom-exp ... -evolution.

Image

Image

Same power versions as per the BEST line, from 250W up to 1500W (as nominal power), voltage from 48 to 72V.

[/quote]

The last sentence, does it mean you are working on a sine wave controller?
[/quote]

Yes!

craigsj   10 mW

10 mW
Posts: 26
Joined: Jul 17 2018 4:14pm

Re: Bikee Bike final review

Post by craigsj » Sep 25 2018 7:43pm

neptronix wrote: ↑
Sep 23 2018 11:05am
The PAS problems are common.. even the bafangs have it.. there's about a half second between the time you stop pedaling and the power stops, which gets more dangerous the higher the power level gets. Some controllers are set up so that a single rotation along a PAS sensor magnet shoots out full power, which can send you rocketing into traffic if you nudge the pedal at a stop.. this is just lazy controller programming/design.. my solution is to ditch PAS and go throttle only.. which is fine.
These are gross mischaracterizations of PAS. Bafangs do have braindead run-on when you stop pedaling but that's trivially tuned out and there's no reason to tolerate it. It seems quite unlikely that ANY PAS system "rockets" you into traffic at a mere "nudge" of the pedal, that's preposterous. Bafangs certainly don't do that and can't. No CA-based PAS system exhibits any of these problems.

Perhaps any product that performs this badly should be disqualified but it's not a justification for claiming the solution is to ditch PAS completely. Bicycles are pedaled, not throttled.

User avatar
neptronix   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 12725
Joined: Jun 15 2010 5:56pm
Location: California refugee living in Utah, USA
Contact:

Re: Bikee Bike final review

Post by neptronix » Sep 25 2018 9:18pm

Well, i've been riding and building ebikes for almost a decade now. Encountered quite a few PAS setups with hubs that were poorly designed and do just that. Luckily they only had 250-750w motors because when you're a few feet from traffic and the motor turns on because you nudged the pedal the wrong way... that's dangerous as hell. none of these had CA's or anything fancy... just generic Chinese kits.

Or they had lag or some other stupid characteristic.

Ridden a few BBS02 bikes and built my own. Never took the time to program the controller. Every single one continued to produce power after the pedaling stopped. Super annoying. I ripped the PAS out too.

Only a proper torque sensing setup feels closer to being correct.
I like simple, responsive, and no lag. I still drive a stick shift despite my constant knee pain for the same reason. :)
My first major build: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The wheelie machine: 20" Rear Magic Pie II on a Trek 4300 MTB

"The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is now."- Chinese Proverb

User avatar
neptronix   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 12725
Joined: Jun 15 2010 5:56pm
Location: California refugee living in Utah, USA
Contact:

Re: Bikee Bike final review

Post by neptronix » Sep 25 2018 9:22pm

OEM drive is kinda cool but the real hat trick would be a narrow final stage so that us DIY guys still have a choice of frame.

Maybe we aren't a big enough market to justify the engineering expense though.
I don't know of any manufacturers who have manage to figure that out. There's always a lot of offset.
My first major build: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The wheelie machine: 20" Rear Magic Pie II on a Trek 4300 MTB

"The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is now."- Chinese Proverb

User avatar
Pilot Engineer   100 mW

100 mW
Posts: 36
Joined: Dec 12 2013 2:55am

Re: Bikee Bike final review

Post by Pilot Engineer » Sep 26 2018 1:41am

Hi Neptronix, actually our PAS system works pretty well. We dedicated two years of refinement to get a natural feeling. We have a driving mode which is Torque Sensor emulator which is very close to the feeling that a real torque sensor gives you. It has no lag when you start pedaling and when you stop. Plus the assistance level is not flat, but it's based on the speed, so you can actually pedal at the speed you want.
neptronix wrote: ↑
Sep 25 2018 9:22pm
OEM drive is kinda cool but the real hat trick would be a narrow final stage so that us DIY guys still have a choice of frame.
I don't understand that, would you please explain?

Thanks
Matteo

User avatar
neptronix   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 12725
Joined: Jun 15 2010 5:56pm
Location: California refugee living in Utah, USA
Contact:

Re: Bikee Bike final review

Post by neptronix » Sep 26 2018 10:15am

I'm talking about the final gear on the BBS02 and other drives that protrude to the right and causes the need for offset in the pedals..

i think it would be possible to shave some precious millimeters off something like a BBS02. ~5mm of outwards offset could be reduced. The motor and primary gear reduction would have to be a little taller. it would require a complete redesign..

But maybe it's not worth it at all to a manufacturer because most users don't mind pedaling a bike like they're giving birth to a cow.. :lol:
My first major build: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The wheelie machine: 20" Rear Magic Pie II on a Trek 4300 MTB

"The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is now."- Chinese Proverb

User avatar
Pilot Engineer   100 mW

100 mW
Posts: 36
Joined: Dec 12 2013 2:55am

Re: Bikee Bike final review

Post by Pilot Engineer » Sep 26 2018 10:21am

neptronix wrote: ↑
Sep 26 2018 10:15am
I'm talking about the final gear on the BBS02 and other drives that protrude to the right and causes the need for offset in the pedals..

i think it would be possible to shave some precious millimeters off something like a BBS02. ~5mm of outwards offset could be reduced. The motor and primary gear reduction would have to be a little taller. it would require a complete redesign..
Got you. Thanks for the explanation. I don't believe that's feasible, the only way is to go with the OEM motor such as the Evolution. If you still want to have the freedom of choice on the frame, it's required some alumimun welding skill...

craigsj   10 mW

10 mW
Posts: 26
Joined: Jul 17 2018 4:14pm

Re: Bikee Bike final review

Post by craigsj » Sep 28 2018 1:17pm

neptronix wrote: ↑
Sep 25 2018 9:18pm
Well, i've been riding and building ebikes for almost a decade now. Encountered quite a few PAS setups with hubs that were poorly designed and do just that. Luckily they only had 250-750w motors because when you're a few feet from traffic and the motor turns on because you nudged the pedal the wrong way... that's dangerous as hell. none of these had CA's or anything fancy... just generic Chinese kits.

Or they had lag or some other stupid characteristic.

Ridden a few BBS02 bikes and built my own. Never took the time to program the controller. Every single one continued to produce power after the pedaling stopped. Super annoying. I ripped the PAS out too.

Only a proper torque sensing setup feels closer to being correct.
I like simple, responsive, and no lag. I still drive a stick shift despite my constant knee pain for the same reason. :)
Again, not an indictment of PAS, only of your prejudice and inability to work with it. Bafang solutions are trivially fixable, that you can't make them work says more about you than Bafang.

andrebandre   10 W

10 W
Posts: 77
Joined: Dec 02 2015 8:17am

Re: Bikee Bike final review

Post by andrebandre » Sep 28 2018 11:28pm

Matteo,
Could you tell me the BCD of the smaller chainring?
I am contemplating a belt drive and it seems to me the mounting pattern for both chainrings is proprietary.
I was wondering if a Bafang adapter either for the classic or HD might work.

elementary   10 W

10 W
Posts: 82
Joined: Jun 04 2013 9:19am
Location: Pennsylvania

Re: Bikee Bike final review

Post by elementary » Sep 29 2018 12:15pm

Using the program cable and a PC, the Bafang PAS is easily adjusted and functions much better than the Bikee PAS

User avatar
Pilot Engineer   100 mW

100 mW
Posts: 36
Joined: Dec 12 2013 2:55am

Re: Bikee Bike final review

Post by Pilot Engineer » Oct 05 2018 1:39am

andrebandre wrote: ↑
Sep 28 2018 11:28pm
Matteo,
Could you tell me the BCD of the smaller chainring?
I am contemplating a belt drive and it seems to me the mounting pattern for both chainrings is proprietary.
I was wondering if a Bafang adapter either for the classic or HD might work.
The smaller chainring is proprietary and has a custom interface.
elementary wrote: ↑
Sep 29 2018 12:15pm
the Bafang PAS is easily adjusted and functions much better than the Bikee PAS
The forums are full of people complaining about Bafang PAS and trying out to understand how to program it... I wouldn't say that.

Post Reply