SURRON LB: RESEARCH & DEVELOPEMENT

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.
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Merlin   10 MW

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Re: SURRON LB: RESEARCH & DEVELOPEMENT

Post by Merlin » Sep 12 2020 1:38pm

Depends what Offroad means.
Single track with technical stuff is 40-45wh/km
Going fast like an mx track you hit easy +60wh but motor Temps will slow you down quick.

And... Riders weight is a huge difference... Even it's flat on street.

I tested alot with my girl (50kg) vs me (90kg)

On a road legel 25km trip Iam at 27wh/km
She hits only 19wh/km

Thats incredible.

With a stock surron battery, 1 year old 2500 km on it the did 72km in one charge.

"men" a are happy if they get 50km a charge.

Of course we switched also bikes to eliminate tire differences, gearing etc.

Summary : bigger guys need bigger batteries :D

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Jonathan1981   100 W

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Re: SURRON LB: RESEARCH & DEVELOPEMENT

Post by Jonathan1981 » Sep 12 2020 11:05pm

Merlin wrote:
Sep 12 2020 3:40am
If I get a 2nd "bigger surron clone" frame, I'll give you an upgraded surron battery :mrgreen:

Http://www.zemso.eu/Surron.html
Merlin, thanks man, really appreciate the reach out, I will need to figure out the battery prior to designing the frame as it's the largest part, the frame needs to be designed around that component... are you all good with building the electronics side, like batteries, BMS and all the inards???? maybe we can work on a revised design that will better suit my frame design... what do you think?

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Jonathan1981   100 W

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Re: SURRON LB: RESEARCH & DEVELOPEMENT

Post by Jonathan1981 » Sep 12 2020 11:17pm

Jonathan1981 wrote:
Sep 12 2020 11:05pm
Merlin wrote:
Sep 12 2020 3:40am
If I get a 2nd "bigger surron clone" frame, I'll give you an upgraded surron battery :mrgreen:

Http://www.zemso.eu/Surron.html
Merlin, thanks man, really appreciate the reach out, I will need to figure out the battery prior to designing the frame as it's the largest part, the frame needs to be designed around that component... are you all good with building the electronics side, like batteries, BMS and all the inards???? maybe we can work on a revised design that will better suit my frame design... what do you think?
Let's start with this, the current battery weighs something like 30 odd lbs. Get's about 40km true hard riding in sport mode. What sort of form factor and weight would we be looking at to get ~60-70km hard riding @ a higher voltage.... I'm trying to find a sweet spot here as I don't want this to be too much heavier than the current bike...

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Merlin   10 MW

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Re: SURRON LB: RESEARCH & DEVELOPEMENT

Post by Merlin » Sep 13 2020 7:48am

If you Wanna reach ~70km you are allready at the "sweet spot"

As you said. Stock battery lasts around 40km.
1800wh : 40 = 45wh/km
3250wh : 45wh = 72km

That fits exactly real world experience.
I made this batteries also with 35E cells. In theory you have
~3.6kwh with same weight of the vtc6.
But the voltage drop under load hits lvc way to early.
(even in a 19p configuration @16s only)

That 300 cells battery have 15.5kg. Around 5kg more than stock.

Fully upgraded surrons with moto wheel set and bigger tires (not the skinny stock ones) ends up in Offroad version @62kg
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Jonathan1981   100 W

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Re: SURRON LB: RESEARCH & DEVELOPEMENT

Post by Jonathan1981 » Sep 13 2020 12:42pm

Merlin wrote:
Sep 13 2020 7:48am
If you Wanna reach ~70km you are allready at the "sweet spot"

As you said. Stock battery lasts around 40km.
1800wh : 40 = 45wh/km
3250wh : 45wh = 72km

That fits exactly real world experience.
I made this batteries also with 35E cells. In theory you have
~3.6kwh with same weight of the vtc6.
But the voltage drop under load hits lvc way to early.
(even in a 19p configuration @16s only)

That 300 cells battery have 15.5kg. Around 5kg more than stock.

Fully upgraded surrons with moto wheel set and bigger tires (not the skinny stock ones) ends up in Offroad version @62kg
Ok, so I'm assuming you need an aftermarket controller for the 72V version right? Any chance we could get this in 84V or would the motor burn up? I think Luna tested 96V and the motor burnt up right?
Can you provide me with the EXACT dimensions to two decimal places of the outer casing of your pack?
Any possibility you could design in a display to know battery percentage remaining etc.?

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Rix   100 GW

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Re: SURRON LB: RESEARCH & DEVELOPEMENT

Post by Rix » Sep 15 2020 3:37pm

Merlin wrote:
Sep 13 2020 7:48am
If you Wanna reach ~70km you are allready at the "sweet spot"

As you said. Stock battery lasts around 40km.
1800wh : 40 = 45wh/km
3250wh : 45wh = 72km

That fits exactly real world experience.
I made this batteries also with 35E cells. In theory you have
~3.6kwh with same weight of the vtc6.
But the voltage drop under load hits lvc way to early.
(even in a 19p configuration @16s only)

That 300 cells battery have 15.5kg. Around 5kg more than stock.

Fully upgraded surrons with moto wheel set and bigger tires (not the skinny stock ones) ends up in Offroad version @62kg
Thats a serious machine Merlin. I like it!

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Jonathan1981   100 W

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Re: SURRON LB: RESEARCH & DEVELOPEMENT

Post by Jonathan1981 » Sep 18 2020 3:17am

Anyone know what the exact dims are on this lightspeed battery???
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Merlin   10 MW

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Re: SURRON LB: RESEARCH & DEVELOPEMENT

Post by Merlin » Sep 18 2020 5:01am

i dont want to know the dimensions :lol:
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fechter   100 GW

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Re: SURRON LB: RESEARCH & DEVELOPEMENT

Post by fechter » Sep 18 2020 10:12am

Geez, that's pretty tall. I'll be interested to see how it looks installed.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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Re: SURRON LB: RESEARCH & DEVELOPEMENT

Post by Kauaiguy » Sep 18 2020 1:05pm

I have a 42ah 60v coming from Litespeed that fits the stock location no mods

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Jonathan1981   100 W

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Re: SURRON LB: RESEARCH & DEVELOPEMENT

Post by Jonathan1981 » Sep 18 2020 5:58pm

Merlin wrote:
Sep 18 2020 5:01am
i dont want to know the dimensions :lol:
LOL...That's a big mamma, need to know those dims though so I can start designing the new frame...if anyone knows, LMK.

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Re: SURRON LB: RESEARCH & DEVELOPEMENT

Post by thoroughbred » Dec 12 2020 6:29pm

Merlin wrote:
Sep 12 2020 1:38pm
Depends what Offroad means.
Single track with technical stuff is 40-45wh/km
Going fast like an mx track you hit easy +60wh but motor Temps will slow you down quick.

And... Riders weight is a huge difference... Even it's flat on street.

I tested alot with my girl (50kg) vs me (90kg)

On a road legel 25km trip Iam at 27wh/km
She hits only 19wh/km

Thats incredible.

With a stock surron battery, 1 year old 2500 km on it the did 72km in one charge.

"men" a are happy if they get 50km a charge.

Of course we switched also bikes to eliminate tire differences, gearing etc.

Summary : bigger guys need bigger batteries :D
Does nucular calculate battery consumption from the battery parameters entered by the user or does it actually measure it somehow? I'm 75kg and got this consumption today offroad single-track
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Re: SURRON LB: RESEARCH & DEVELOPEMENT

Post by sc-surfer » Dec 28 2020 2:34am

I've got my bike set up how I like it as far as suspension and cockpit. Really happy with it. Working on wheel upgrade next. Hub and hoops are here. Just need to measure up and order spokes. I have a blast riding it. Totally happy with the top speed on a 54t sprocket as I ride mostly technical singetrack. Power is fine too, although a little more grunt wouldn't hurt. The think I really want more of is range. Some places I like to ride are 5 miles away. After allowing for 10 miles range there/back, I'm left with only another 10-15 miles of riding, so looking for a new battery. I've seen a several offerings but this one seems to be the best...if it's for real.


http://www.zemso.eu/Surron.html

Advertised specs:

- 60v65Ah // 3720wh (2190€)
(max Range option-16s)
- LLT Bluetooth BMS (Up to 30A charge)
- App for Android + Apple available
- 200A continue discharge(30Q)
- 250A continue discharge(VTC6)
- 300A peak discharge(30Q
- 450A peak discharge(VTC6)
- Tempsensors to prevent overheating
- Range:
EU Legal 45kph @ 27wh/km -> 120Km
offroad @ 40wh/km -> 80km

Has anyone bought this battery? Is this company legit? Are these specs possible?

If it's true, 65Ah is 2x the stock battery, fits in the frame without drama, and uses stock charger. This would be a massive game changer. I sent them an email inquiring about the all-in cost to get one to the west coast.

Any feedback?

smdub   100 mW

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Re: SURRON LB: RESEARCH & DEVELOPEMENT

Post by smdub » Dec 28 2020 8:15am

Says it's usung a Samsung 30Q which is a 3Ah 18650 cell. Just need to do some math to see how many would fit in the box.

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Merlin   10 MW

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Re: SURRON LB: RESEARCH & DEVELOPEMENT

Post by Merlin » Dec 28 2020 8:25am

35E Samsung
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Re: SURRON LB: RESEARCH & DEVELOPEMENT

Post by smdub » Dec 28 2020 9:07am

Ok, I see that down the page now. The Samsung 35E is 3.5Ah but with only half the discharge rate (8A vs 15A of 30E). They say 16S 304 cells so thats 16S19P.
Edit: I has 26650s on the brain. How do they fit so much more than everyone else? Stock is 11p? Litespeed can pack 12P. How do they squeeze 60% more cells into the same space?

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Merlin   10 MW

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Re: SURRON LB: RESEARCH & DEVELOPEMENT

Post by Merlin » Dec 28 2020 10:03am

a real and 100% inhouse self build. Not china import like litespeed does.
you dont believe? ask him to put LG HG2 cells inside or anything else he dont have.
it will take at least 2 months. Guess why? sea ship to make it worth takes time. *lol

you know the "ERT Buys goes wrong" facebook group? :D
Litespeed has his own now also :lol:

you can check UK and German Facebook groups about Zemso. Plenty of Surron riders with Zemso batteries.

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Re: SURRON LB: RESEARCH & DEVELOPEMENT

Post by smdub » Dec 28 2020 10:23am

It doesn't matter who makes them for lightspeed. Its the size of the batteries themselves. The stock SurRon doesn't use staggered cells.
Image
So one assumes that lightspeed does stagger and makes room for the extra 16 cells to go from 11S to 12S. Staggered row cells are as space efficient as you can get w/ a cylinder. How in the world do you find room for 128 more cells (304 Zemso vs 176 SurRon) in a nearly stock box?

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Merlin   10 MW

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Re: SURRON LB: RESEARCH & DEVELOPEMENT

Post by Merlin » Dec 28 2020 10:31am

for me it would matter if someone tells me "its made in america" or its imported cheap to make easy profit and i dont care if it falls apart after 6 months because your out of warranty.

you should think more opposite....it doesnt matter how the hell this is possible if you get what you payd for :wink:

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Re: SURRON LB: RESEARCH & DEVELOPEMENT

Post by sc-surfer » Dec 28 2020 1:48pm

Here's the response I received from Zemso...
Hello Monte,

thx for your interest but i cant ship outside EU for now. Missing Lithium Shipment licence comes 2021.

If your just looking for a bigger Battery with stock controller its Ok.
If you have upgraded controller i wouldnt recommend the 65Ah version because its too weak for 10kw+ Bikes.
16s19p is only 150A Battery current.(9kw)
if you stick with 60v i would route the 30Q way. (57Ah...285A) the voltage sag is not that huge on those 35E cells and you didnt hit LVC at 50% of capacity.

Br,

Andi
Bummer that they can't ship here yet. Even the 57Ah would be a massive range extender. I'll be keeping in touch with them. Hope they get their shipping cert soon. It's a bummer our only 'real' option in the USA is Lightspeed.

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Re: SURRON LB: RESEARCH & DEVELOPEMENT

Post by PhilF500 » Jan 02 2021 8:58pm

I've ordered 2 batteries from litespeed, also been to his place to pick it up. Why does he have bins of batteries, prints of all of the layouts, everything to build a pack there if he imports the pack? It may take 2 months to get different cells that he doesn't have, not to import a made pack. I watched them wrap my pack in the polycarbonate when I showed up a bit early to pick it up. Ordered the Sony vtc6 45ah battery. Also have an order in for the 42ah 21700 pack. So far I have nothing but good things to say. If that changes I'll come back on here and report back. Only issues I know of with litespeed were his dealings with the asi controllers from ert which did not go as planned. I think he does a great job at building batteries at a reasonable price.

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Merlin   10 MW

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Re: SURRON LB: RESEARCH & DEVELOPEMENT

Post by Merlin » Jan 03 2021 10:51am

yea sure....welcome fresh registration 1 time poster to defend litespeed :lol:

Bullfrog   1 kW

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Re: SURRON LB: RESEARCH & DEVELOPEMENT

Post by Bullfrog » Jan 03 2021 1:26pm

Drivetrain questions....

A. Has anybody had their primary belt drive fail/slip? Especially after increasing the amperage/torque...belt drives are nice but they usually have fewer teeth engaged than an equivalent ratio for a chain drive which can put more stress on the individual teeth on the belt.

B. When running a stock voltage battery (not a 72v), how much can you reduce the top speed on flat ground with the throttle wide open...what I am trying to figure out is can I reduce the gearing enough by converting the primary drive to a chain and changing both the primary and final drive sprockets so my top speed on flat ground with the throttle wide open is about 18 mph. The fastest I can go where I ride is about 17-18 mph and I am concerned about over heating the motor because I am constantly almost coming to a stop and then accelerating at full throttle.

Thanks

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Re: SURRON LB: RESEARCH & DEVELOPEMENT

Post by smdub » Jan 03 2021 1:55pm

A) I can skip the primary belt w/ Nuc24F w/ accel set to very high default. Toning it down a hair fixed it. The stock controller could never do it.
FWIW, Belts often have MORE teeth engaged since they are smaller pitch. For example, I think the OEM motor pulley is 23T and even w/ a #219 chain conversion it only goes to 20T. But belt/chain pitch isn't a direct indication of torque capability so really doesn't matter here.

B) You can get lower intermediate shaft conversions in both belt or chain.
I think the stock belt pulleys are 23:51 (I verify the 51 and the stock front sprocket part lists 23 on it. This matches the advertised 2.217 ratio)
Someone sells a 60T(?) pulley to use w/ a slightly longer belt. 60/23=2.609
Luna sells a #219 chain low conversion w/ 20:54=2.7 (though the sprockets don't look very high quality). This is slightly lower than the belt option.
2.7/2.217=1.218 reduction over OEM

Th largest rear sprocket available is 64T?? 64T/factory 48T=1.333

1.218(intermediate) * 1.333(final) = 1.624 total reduction.
So if your top speed was ~45mph before / 1.624 = 28mph.

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Re: SURRON LB: RESEARCH & DEVELOPEMENT

Post by Bullfrog » Jan 03 2021 5:18pm

Thanks

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