Wayne’s Dengfu Carbon Fibre FS 27.5” with Bafang M600 (throttle also)

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Re: Wayne’s Dengfu Carbon Fibre FS 27.5” with Bafang M600 (throttle also)

Post by devo1223 » Oct 06 2018 11:34am

How does the power of the m600 compare to the HD? Does your HD have the ludicrous controller? How does the torque sensor compare to a factory bike like a haibike?
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Re: Wayne’s Dengfu Carbon Fibre FS 27.5” with Bafang M600 (throttle also)

Post by waynebergman » Oct 06 2018 2:23pm

Hi Devo1223

Its hard to say for comparing it to the HD1000 as I have my HD100 on a fat tire bike, heavy and big rolling resistance on the fatty. No I dont have the Ludicrous controller just running at around 1500 watts when my battery was new, but I am guessing now that the pack is 3 years old I am only getting 1100 wattts or so. Also too early to tell the amount of power we can safely put through these M600 drives for a comparision. I am running now only 850 watts with a hot off the charger pack at 54 volts. Who knows how it will work or if it will work with a 52 volt pack? I am sure the HD will give 25 % more power in stock form atleast but at what cost with the too tall gear reduction on the HD drive that means you are never in the motors happy zone when you are able to catch up with the pedals so for me this is a compromise I am happy with. Less power but better ground clearance, better gear reduction to suite bicylce pedal assist, lighter and nicer looking, torque sensing etc etc.

I have riden the Haibike and was impressed but no throttle. I can not remember the feel of the that ride as it was a while ago to compare it to the Bafang M600. However I can compare it to a Specialized rental bike I tried this summer, I can not remeber if the specialized came with a Bosh or Shimano but it was horible. The pedal assist seemed to come on like an on just like an ON/OFF switch and to change power levels you had to reach down into the front triangle to press a button on the battery. Also the specialized was noisier than the M600 drive but it was a rental so who knows what it had been through. I am sure it was an older model but it was garbage. The M600 is very smooth as far as the pedal assist goes. You press harder on the pedals and you fell it giving more assist plus you have 5 power levels to choose from. I hope the throttle works as smooth.

Hope this helps, I think the way to maybe go on this drive because it may be a while until we are able to get parts for it is.....if you can afford it just buy two motors and have one for spare parts. You will still end up with a bike that is better than the store bought stuff for much cheaper. Just my opinion and its probally too early to tell as I have less than 10 miles on it.......wayne

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Re: Wayne’s Dengfu Carbon Fibre FS 27.5” with Bafang M600 (throttle also)

Post by ScooterMan101 » Oct 07 2018 1:05pm

I think the Specialized uses a Brose motor.

By the Way, there is a difference ( improvement ) with the newer model Specialized Levo's, I have been watching the video reviews, and there seems to be now 3 or more versions/new models over the last couple of years. The latest one , 2019 model now on sale is said to be one of the best E-Mtb's on the market.
It is an improvement over the 2018 model. Which is an improvement on the 2017 and earlier Levo's. The person doing the reviews is the man in England, not Court that does the videos here in the U.S.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjfldYDVXIo


waynebergman wrote:
Oct 06 2018 2:23pm
Hi Devo1223

I have riden the Haibike and was impressed but no throttle. I can not remember the feel of the that ride as it was a while ago to compare it to the Bafang M600. However I can compare it to a Specialized rental bike I tried this summer, I can not remeber if the specialized came with a Bosh or Shimano but it was horible. The pedal assist seemed to come on like an on just like an ON/OFF switch and to change power levels you had to reach down into the front triangle to press a button on the battery. Also the specialized was noisier than the M600 drive but it was a rental so who knows what it had been through. I am sure it was an older model but it was garbage. The M600 is very smooth as far as the pedal assist goes. You press harder on the pedals and you fell it giving more assist plus you have 5 power levels to choose from. I hope the throttle works as smooth.
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Re: Wayne’s Dengfu Carbon Fibre FS 27.5” with Bafang M600 (throttle also)

Post by Drop Dead Fred » Oct 08 2018 12:32am

waynebergman wrote:
Oct 05 2018 11:11pm
Thanks Dropdeadfred for the suggestion. I am pretty sure the bash guard will be fine with out drill outs but I also was thinking of doing that myself but decided against it. I feel the motor will still run cool and there is apparently a temp sensor auto shut down so we will see.

I cut out an opening for the battery wires in the plastic side cover for back pack duties so I could put the cover back on the motor shown in the photo.

Also shown is the little flip flop pivot for rear shock mount for changing the BB height. I swapped that over today to get a little more ground clearance, looks like I get an extra 1/2" or so of ground clearance by moving the rear shock mounting location as shown in the photo.
Hey Wayne,
Thanks for the update and also great post on the shock flip pivot point.

On another note, does your brake levers have cut out switches on them? Reason I ask is I like to hold slight braking when negotiating tight turns on single track and if there are no cutouts on the brake lever then you can get torque when you just want balance.

Thanks,
Fred

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Re: Wayne’s Dengfu Carbon Fibre FS 27.5” with Bafang M600 (throttle also)

Post by Dan3791 » Oct 08 2018 5:40am

Hi Wayne,

Thinking about ordering a frame form Dengfu, but just wanting to know how the battery attaches.

Does it clip into the bottom of the frame or do you need to attach a cover once the battery is in place?

Also is there a key lock on the side of the frame to release the battery?

Cheers

Dan.

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Re: Wayne’s Dengfu Carbon Fibre FS 27.5” with Bafang M600 (throttle also)

Post by Bigwheel » Oct 08 2018 8:57am

I see the M600 as the anti EU motor. Yeah, the Levo gets lots of love but it is not at all perfect and it LACKS A THROTTLE which is important to some of us. Not so that we can go thumbing the thing exclusively but because it is a handy item to have on board and the fact that the EU regs have somehow made having a throttle on board synonymous with motor cycles and therefor a putting them in that class.

Currently the Levo is experiencing some issues with noisy motors and even the big guys have some problems it seems to sort out. I just think its funny that people fawn all over Levo's as I did a comparison ride with a friend that had one with my TSDZ2 and it wasn't any better IMNSHO and lacked a T'HROTTLE.

Still too soon to say if the M600 is the answer but at least Bafang is trying to provide products that are especially of interest to those that are coming around to the idea of integrated systems.

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Re: Wayne’s Dengfu Carbon Fibre FS 27.5” with Bafang M600 (throttle also)

Post by waynebergman » Oct 08 2018 1:54pm

No I did not want to get the e-brakes. I have never been a fan of them. Just extra junk to worry about and clutter up the handle bar area as far as I am concerned. Also one more thing fix.

Regarding the battery, yes I have a key lock on the left side of the frame so it will lock the battery in place, it will load in from the underside of the down tube. Room for a slight over 3" wide pack. As I have not received the battery yet I am only guessing it will have some kind of a hot shoe that it clicks into so when you remove it you don't have to disconnect power leads. I will post details on the pack fitment when it arrives.

One more comment on how the bike was put together from Dengfu..... the bolts all need to be gone over with a torque wrench as mostly just finger tight on arrival and with CF you need to be specific with torque settings. Also the brake cable lines should have been shortened, if one bought a bike from a bike shop for this kind of money you would expect the brake lines to look clean and not too long, so it makes me think the staff that installed the motor drive and the bike components are not real bike mechanics or maybe they are on a time limit for each bike. I guess this is all part of the process going the direct from China route. Just one more thing a person should be prepared for if you buy this way, you should have basic bike set up and repair skills.I would not be right nor would I expect a bike shop to welcome you and your China direct stuff in there shop for a tune up. Different I guess after you have ridden it for a bit and its used but as a new bike it would be weird taking it into a shop that did not sell it to you asking for help. You should be prepared to bleed brakes and shorten cables, have or buy a proper torque wrench for pivot bolts and also give the bike a quick once over before riding. Of course being a full suspension you will need a shock pump as shock air pressures shipped low and the bike needs sag adjustment both front and rear suspension for your rider weight to suite the bike.

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Re: Wayne’s Dengfu Carbon Fibre FS 27.5” with Bafang M600 (throttle also)

Post by waynebergman » Oct 08 2018 9:07pm

Quick max power update........from todays ride I noticed a max amp out put of a little over 19 and a max watt output of a little under 950 watts. So my guess is the programing is set for a max 20 amps and I believe I have read that before as well. I figure today my resting state of charge was just a little higher than the last test ride so I squeezed an extra bit of wattage into the system. Time will tell if we are actually safely able to pump 58 volts from a full charge 52 volt pack into this platform, but if we can then the 20 amps times the 58 would give around 1160 watts. I dont want to be the giny pig on this one just yet to pour the full wattage into this drive but I will continue to try and get some kind of a green light from Bafang. I am not worried at all putting the extra wattage into this drive regarding gear issues or heat or anything mechanical as I am a light rider but more worried if the high voltage could damage controller.

I bet its going to be fine but just a little apprehansive right now to try it.

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Re: Wayne’s Dengfu Carbon Fibre FS 27.5” with Bafang M600 (throttle also)

Post by waynebergman » Oct 10 2018 8:08pm

Screen Shot 2018-10-10 at 6.02.47 PM.jpg
Screen Shot 2018-10-10 at 6.03.01 PM.jpg
Screen Shot 2018-10-10 at 6.03.10 PM.jpg
Not recommended I am sure but just getting a bit impatient so I took apart the 52v Dolphin pack and ran parts of the plastic housing through the band saw and sanded the rest in order to get the pack somewhat up in side the down tube. Yes the battery will clear the tire on full front fork compression with its current mount. Mickey mouse for sure with the bunge cords but what's a guy to do. Sure nice riding it now with out the battery pack in my back pack.

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Re: Wayne’s Dengfu Carbon Fibre FS 27.5” with Bafang M600 (throttle also)

Post by waynebergman » Oct 15 2018 5:16pm

Got a response from Bafang themselves today regarding my questions on the connectors.
purple orange.jpg
Photo here shows some new insights. Looks like the connector labeled in purple #1 is split out to 4 other connectors. The circle in orange shows the 4 into 1 splitter but on my bike I did not see this as its most likley hidden between the motor and the frame somewhere. The good news is the motor does in fact support a throttle. The 4 into 1 split has the throttle as a 3 pin so this makes sense. I see from the support PDF document with the chinese text and drawing the the connector labeled in purple #2 is actually for the e-brakes so this is starting to make sense. Makes me think the other 6 pin purple under the chain stay is for a stop light but not sure.

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Re: Wayne’s Dengfu Carbon Fibre FS 27.5” with Bafang M600 (throttle also)

Post by Vividguy » Oct 16 2018 7:15am

Wayne hi
Thanks fir all the good info.
Ive also ordered this frame (L) and wanted to ask you some questions:
Could u fit a dropper seatpost with internal cables?
Did you you had any problems with the installation of the wiring & motor?

You help would be appreciated.

Guy

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Re: Wayne’s Dengfu Carbon Fibre FS 27.5” with Bafang M600 (throttle also)

Post by RobertZielinski85 » Oct 16 2018 12:01pm

this purple socket is probably a diagnostic socket. Can you tell me if the shimano motor and bafang m600 are the same?

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Re: Wayne’s Dengfu Carbon Fibre FS 27.5” with Bafang M600 (throttle also)

Post by waynebergman » Oct 16 2018 10:57pm

Hi vividguy, to answer your questions.......dropper should be doable with internal cables cant remember if there is an opening at seat tube and BB area junction but easy to drill out if not.Regarding wiring and motor install just please re read the thread from its beginings as it tells the story.
Robert to comment on your reply, no I think the purple socket is ebrake at least the purple one inside the motor for sure.And the shimano drive and the bafang are two totally diffent drives. Shimano has no throttle for one thing.

I have a question please for those that may understand some of the electric lingo better than me. I got a response back from Dengfu today that states...."They are working on the battery and throttle.  The daley is due to the new communication protocol between the motor and the battery." .....Can someone tell me please what this implies. I have pluged in an extra battery I have on hand and depleted it to equal a full charge 48 volt, XT connectors and end of story as far as getting the bike up and working. How complicated can this be. It seems to work fine. What does a "new communication protocol between the motor and the battery" have to do with anything? I don't know what this means. Anyone????............wayne

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Re: Wayne’s Dengfu Carbon Fibre FS 27.5” with Bafang M600 (throttle also)

Post by Kitaro1999 » Oct 17 2018 9:00am

My $0.02 here - I spoke with another supplier and looks like Bafang has told them that the firmware and ports are evolving, and to expect updates. I asked for additional details but that is all they got. This particular supplier is hesitant to sell the M600 system right now.

I am guessing it works the way you have set up, but wanted to share what I heard.

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Re: Wayne’s Dengfu Carbon Fibre FS 27.5” with Bafang M600 (throttle also)

Post by waynebergman » Oct 17 2018 11:22pm

Thanks for the info Kitaro1999. I am still puzzled however as "firmware and ports may be evolving" but what does any of this have to do with a battery. My motor has an xt60 connector and it waiting for a 48 volt pack to pour in some wattage. In my case my controller is in place, the motor is in place is just needs power. I just dont see any communication issues at this point that can be changed at the battery level. Maybe I just dont fully understand the basic concept but when I think communication I am thinking between throttle and controller and levels of assist at the displa level but the battery just pours out what the controller demands (my understanding anyways).

The battery of course has a BMS I realize but its all internal just dealing with battery internal issues, no? If Bafang is tinkering with any changes to controler communication its not going to do me anygood at this point I just want my battery. Anyways the good news for now is, the throttle has left China, cant wait to get my hands on it and see how it works.

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Re: Wayne’s Dengfu Carbon Fibre FS 27.5” with Bafang M600 (throttle also)

Post by r23ves » Oct 19 2018 2:21pm

I think there must be another communication port for the battery. I thought most modern batteries had firmware which monitored the health of cells, number of cycles etc and communicated this to the controller and/or display. Is there no other free port somehwere?

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Re: Wayne’s Dengfu Carbon Fibre FS 27.5” with Bafang M600 (throttle also)

Post by waynebergman » Oct 19 2018 4:37pm

r23ves thanks....You may be right. I wait and see when the battery arrives if it has more than charge and discharge ports. If it has one more port than that then you are on to something......thanks wayne

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Re: Wayne’s Dengfu Carbon Fibre FS 27.5” with Bafang M600 (throttle also)

Post by waynebergman » Oct 19 2018 11:20pm

THR1.jpg
THR2.jpg
THR2.jpg (44.56 KiB) Viewed 1234 times
After seeing the diagram from Bafang which confirmed there is actually a connector split into the 6 pin from motor I got to digging around in the top tube of the bike. Sure enough the 3 pin connector was tucked away inside the down tube. So that is good news. Getting tired of waiting for Dengfu to send me the throttle. It is supposed to be on the way but so is Christmas. I also had included in the original shipment a male 3 pin pigtail supplied from Dengfu so I cut the connector end off of the Luna 1/2 twist from my fat bike and soldered it onto this pig tail. Its all connected now so hope to test it out tomorrow.

A question I have is - if somehow I have got the wrong match up for my three wires what is the worst that can happen? The colors all seem to match (red, blue and black on both models of throttle) so pretty sure its wired correct but, wondering lets say the colors from on the HD throttle denote something different than the same colors on the M600 would any damage occur if I power it up and give it a try?.......wayne

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Re: Wayne’s Dengfu Carbon Fibre FS 27.5” with Bafang M600 (throttle also)

Post by waynebergman » Oct 20 2018 3:36pm

Screen Shot 2018-10-20 at 1.23.49 PM.jpg
Screen shot attaached shows some info I now see in the users Manual that Bafang sent me. This now makes some sense as I see the 3 pin shown in the screen shot apparently connects to battery so this may be infact what dengfu and BAfang are talking about in regards to the battery having some kind of communication to the rest of the system. It also may explain why my HD1000 throttle hack did not work. I am guessing if I drop the motor I will see a 3 pin connector that connects to the Bafang battery. I will wait till the battery comes and if in fact there is a place for 3 pin connector on the battery I will search in the frame area more carefully for its conector. This 3 pin connector shown in the photo here must be up above the motor in the BB area of the frame. This also why Dengfu did not instal the throttle is my guess.

Dengfu never did admit to ever having the throttle in there possesion during the original bike build. Nor did they even try to explain what I think I now know as to why they did not install the thottle on the bike at the Dengfu factory. All they would ever say is "We will send the throttle when we send the battery" such a shame they just cant help even a tiny bit:(

So my best guess is even when the Bafang throttle arrives hopefully next week from Dengfu it will not work either as it needs to have battery communication feeding back into the system through the 3 pin shown in the screen shot. I think it time to just forget about the whole throttle mystery until my Bafang battery arrives. Pedal assist it is for now :)

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Re: Wayne’s Dengfu Carbon Fibre FS 27.5” with Bafang M600 (throttle also)

Post by Vividguy » Oct 21 2018 4:46am

Wayne hi

I was wondering do you have in tips for what to ask for when dealing with dengfu.
Im also building my own battery with dengfu battery case.
Did the shipping went ok?

Thanks

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Re: Wayne’s Dengfu Carbon Fibre FS 27.5” with Bafang M600 (throttle also)

Post by Bigwheel » Oct 21 2018 8:14am

There is a Can Bus protocol imbedded in the BMS for the M600. It probably has an affect on the throttle function. This is a new move by Bafang to come into line with the manufactured products by the EU manufacturers. However, unlike all Bafang products that have come before that are DIY user friendly it does make things less so. This helps to explain Can Buss communications and although they don't specifically mention eBikes be assured that it is being used in this sector and going forward more so on the manufacturer level: https://www.csselectronics.com/screen/p ... ies-Basics

Luckily they are forthcoming with the protocol which as far as I can tell others aren't as proprietary control of their systems is important for them and are unlikely to be shared.

I would wait for the M600 battery you have on the way before coming to any conclusions and know that any future developments will be supported by Bafang as I understand it. Although Bafang support is not noted for it's quality when dealing with them it is the hand we are dealt to avoid having to deal with say Bosch, Brose, Yamaha etc. that would go nowhere fast. At least they are reachable and their interest is in gaining market share in the evolving OEM eBike market. However this is going to be interfered with via the trade tariff's somewhat if the cost becomes an issue.

I would like to add that integrated battery systems I feel are limited for future upgrades in battery technology. This also leads towards the realm of proprietary components instead of the open source ones that ES has been about all along with the ability to adapt or modify to new tech as it comes along. Especially with the 2170 cells on the near horizon that will not fit in an integrated dt unless it is designed to and not be retrofittable.

Meanwhile the geometry of the frames showing up that will hold the M600 are not up to modern standards as far as I see it. This isn't a huge issue but why not get the best handling bike possible out of the deal also? It is also important for larger market appeal if they are more in line with their analog counterparts and what the cycling public has been led to expect from "next years" model. While in the end it may or may not have enough effect on the handling of the bike for the average cyclist, perception rules in the bicycle marketplace.

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Re: Wayne’s Dengfu Carbon Fibre FS 27.5” with Bafang M600 (throttle also)

Post by waynebergman » Oct 21 2018 10:03am

HI Vividguy. Regarding tips for what to ask for when dealing with dengfu I dont want to repeat myself too much in this thread I think its all been said in my earlier posts. Read it all over again slowly to pick out anything that may help. If you have anything specific I will be glad to help if I can. One thing I can highlight for you is once Dengfu has your bike in a box ready to ship it can arrrive (if you live in Canada) to your door in three days, pretty good.

Bigwheel, thanks so much for your awesome reply. This explains a lot to me and I will now wait patiently for the battery to arrive and then make my judgements after all the Bafang components are in place. For me I think the 18650 cellls will work for me just fine.Even if I get 3 years out of the pack at 300.00 bucks a pop that Dengfu charges me I will be totally happy. This being said maybe I should order my next pack now as it may take 3 years to get here.......:)

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Re: Wayne’s Dengfu Carbon Fibre FS 27.5” with Bafang M600 (throttle also)

Post by waynebergman » Oct 23 2018 9:03pm

Posting this for those maybe thinking of going with the CF wheel set option from Dengfu. I am now in Arizona so its time to cactus proof my tires. I figured with the "Tubeless WTB Ranger Light tires"they would have come from Dengfu installed as tubless. Yikes, big surprise and had I known then what I know now I would have gone with different rims and tires not the TCS FORMAT. First of all I noticed the presta valves did not have a removeable stem so this was the first flag. So tubes in the wheel sets come with no removable valve stems..OUCH. This coupled with the issues of breaking the beads on the tires to the CF rims is almost imposible (actaully for me and also the local bike mechanic it was imposible). I spent hours on youtube and one trip to a LBS and lots of bad language in the process and got no where. The guy on youtube showing him standing on the tire beads with both feet and pulling up on the spokes also did not work. Called WTB tech help and they seemed to think it was easy just keep working at it. Not so as far as my wheel set is concerned. The tires seem like they are epoxied onto the rims or something but of course they are not. Absolutley brutal. You will never ever be abe to fix a flat with this tire and rim combo on the trail, you could cut the tire off with a knife but then what? The bike mechanic also said he has never seen anything as stuborn as these beads to try and release. He finally gave up so I bought some stuff from the store so they will welcome me back one day. I wanted to get the beads broken so I could ditch the shiitte presta tubes lacking the removable stems. So hard to put Stans notubes into a presta tube with unremovable stems.

So what I ended up doing to get 3 oz of the stans into these tubes was........
-forced the knurled lock past its stop with pliers so I had more travel in the stem when plunging with my mickey mouse efforts
-tied fishing line to the knurled lock nut and ran that line through a piece of hollow plastice that was rigid
-fished this through the bottom of a turkey baster so I could kind of plunge this set up up and down to let a bit of the stans into the presta valve. Huge pain and took forever but got her done.

When the tires wear out I will cut them off and release the bead with pliers or something and then stans notubes with removable stems and go real tubless with the same tires I guess as the rims are made for this TCS bead seating.
Screen Shot 2018-10-23 at 6.33.01 PM.jpg
Screen Shot 2018-10-23 at 6.33.15 PM.jpg
So long story short if buying this bike from dengfu see if you can get a different tire rim combination as Dengfu will surely not do a real tubless install for you. I am starting to think these Dengfu guys are total clowns.

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Re: Wayne’s Dengfu Carbon Fibre FS 27.5” with Bafang M600 (throttle also)

Post by Bigwheel » Oct 23 2018 10:53pm

Are you sure the problem is with the WTB TCS tire or the BSD of the Dengfu, or whoever they got it from, CF rim? I use TCS tires on all my bikes, but I do also use their rims, and as your mechanic pointed out he had never seen anything this bad before and there are way more WTB tires in the market place than rims like yours.

Dealing overseas is a gamble. It can be interesting to go down the rabbit hole and try and break the language barrier enough via emails and Skype/What'sApp to get something made to suit your needs for the best possible price but it is catch as catch can I am afraid. Most manufacturer/import companies, such as WTB, have been in business overseas for a long time and see to their needs via company staff which raises the chances significantly of success.

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Re: Wayne’s Dengfu Carbon Fibre FS 27.5” with Bafang M600 (throttle also)

Post by waynebergman » Oct 24 2018 9:23am

Thanks Big Wheel, yes I am sure you are right thats its not so much the tires but the combination of the dengfu rims and this tire so this is why I recomment if others buy the bike with the options I went with, dont go with the WTB and the CF rimes from Dengfu.
EDIT.... ALSO THIS VIDEO https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Cs4y8K5hiU SHOWS A GUY THAT HAD THE SAME ISSUES WITH OTHER CF RIMS THAT WERE NOT DENGFU. AFTER SEEING THIS VIDEO AND MY FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE I THINK I WOULD RECOMMEND TO STAY AWAY FROM ANY CF RIMS AND THIS WTB TIRE COMBINATION UNLESS YOU KNOW FIRST HAND THE COMBO WILL WORK. ITS A VERY PRICEY GAMBLE UNLESS YOU ARE SURE. ONE IDEA IF PERSON REALLY WANTS THE DENGFU COMBINAITION (AS ITS GOOD VALUE) I WOULD SAY ASK THEM NOT TO INSTALL THE TIRES. THIS WAY YOU CAN EITHER GO TUBLESS YOURSELF OR PUT TUBES IN WITH REMOVABLE STEMS THEN YOU COULD RIDE THE TIRE TILL IT WEARS OUT AND THEN CUT IT INTO THE TIRE WITH A KNIFE SO YOU CAN GET A HOLD OF IT WITH PLIERS TO BREAK THE TIRE BEAD.

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