LMX 64 : Freeride Ebike with dual drive and torque sensor

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bzhwindtalker   1 MW

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LMX 64 : Freeride Ebike with dual drive and torque sensor

Post by bzhwindtalker » Oct 12 2018 12:20pm

Hello,
We have been working on an update to the LMX 81, our first bike using our patented double freewheel drivetrain.
The 81 was very popular, we produced 40 bikes total in house and due to this limited production capacity, they were always sold out.

However, production for this bike was very complicated for us : the integrated motor is a structural part of the frame, so we had to disassemble, machine, rework the engines... A LOT of work and scrap parts.

The other issue for the LMX 81 production is the integrated battery. It enabled us to fit 1kwh of battery in the exact shape we needed, but the battery is not removable and the battery production is too time consuming.

So after 3 new prototypes and evolution of this idea...

NEW LMX 64 BIKE
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Enter the LMX 64, our latest creation reaching new levels of integration, stealth and offroad efficiency.
We keept the 81 drivetrain, and worked on integration, cost reduction, geometry.
The essencial control element we added is the integration of a torque sensor and pedelec modes on top of throttle modes.

The end product is a bike with :
  • 6082-T6 aluminium frame made in house in France
  • Powdercoating finish
  • 160/160mm travel
  • RST Stitch 36 air fork
  • DNM RCP2 rear shock
  • Halo 27.5"wheels
  • Kenda Hellkat 2.4" tires
  • Flip chip in the shock mount to adjust geometry by 1° for head tube and 8mm for BB height
  • 65° head tube angle
  • 76° seat tube angle
  • 340mm bottom bracket height
  • 500mm reach in L size
  • 450mm reach in M size
  • 165 or 170 cranks available
  • 125mm dropper seatpost
  • 203mm 4 piston TRP e-bike brakes
  • 11 speed sram NX drivetrain
  • separeate chain and freewheel system (our patented tech)
  • 850WH 14S5P removable battery
  • designed for 2000W+ peak power
  • 12 mosfet controller with high phase amps = high torque (now testing nucular controller with very promising results after fiddling with ASI for months without achiving our goal)
  • 29Kg
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We got the public price down from 7200€ for the LMX 81 to 5999€ incl VAT (4833 ex vat) for the LMX 64.
As we are now working on public release for this bike we wanted to get some feedback from you guys about it.

The improvement points are mainly on the the drivetrain noise wich is quite high, not GNG mid drive high, but definitely more than most mid drive engines.


We will also offer preorder prices to help us start the first batch of 50 of those. We will offer 20 bikes for 5500 incl vat (4583€ ex vat)
Deliveries will start in Febuary. We will also be the option to reserve a bike with 500€ deposit.

With our experiance on outsourching the LMX 161 frames production, we decided to make those bike completely in house including the frame, as we have this capability anyway and the work load is reduced on those bikes compared to the 81. This will allow us to have better control of the cost and delays for this project.
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Stay tuned as we will release some more infos and photos/videos of those bike in the coming weeks!

(Edit : list price changed from 5800€ first estimate to 5999€ after final component spec was decided)
Last edited by bzhwindtalker on Jan 04 2019 4:12pm, edited 5 times in total.

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macribs   1 GW

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Re: LMX 64 : Freeride Ebike with dual drive and torque sensor

Post by macribs » Oct 12 2018 12:45pm

Good call making a unit that is less complicated to manufacture. The lower price hopefully will translate to a new wind.
Looking forward to see more.

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brumbrum   100 kW

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Re: LMX 64 : Freeride Ebike with dual drive and torque sensor

Post by brumbrum » Oct 12 2018 2:50pm

Yet again a beautifully designed and made bit of kit that is most desirable. :D

Can i ask if you have tried the Nucular controller on the lmx 005 motor? (I am not sure what motor you are using on this set-up), but i'd like to know for future possible fitment of a nucular controller when the bms for it is also released. For my lmx161 of course.
Last edited by brumbrum on Oct 12 2018 3:06pm, edited 1 time in total.
My NYX and cromotor build
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=74615
My LMX 161 dirt bike build
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=94074

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Re: LMX 64 : Freeride Ebike with dual drive and torque sensor

Post by litespeed » Oct 12 2018 2:53pm

Looks good to me but always about the bicycle components since I’m a 6’ 4” 210 lbs guy? Us bigger people are hard on things due to our size.

I’d love to have a lighter bike I can peddle at speed. What speeds are you getting out of this?

Tom
I'm married so you know I'm no stranger to pain!

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Re: LMX 64 : Freeride Ebike with dual drive and torque sensor

Post by Rube » Oct 12 2018 5:29pm

Congratulations on achieving your goals. In the preorder offer, can you please consider supplying a small batch of developer kits? For example, supply frame only with motor, rear hub, and drive sprocket. Might help those that want to support LMX but struggle with the full cost of 4583€.
Does this version of the motor use the thinner silicon steel laminations?
Last edited by Rube on Oct 12 2018 6:11pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: LMX 64 : Freeride Ebike with dual drive and torque sensor

Post by PRW » Oct 12 2018 5:51pm

Rube wrote:
Oct 12 2018 5:29pm
Congratulations on achieving your goals. In the preorder offer, can you please consider supplying a small batch of developer kits? For example, supply frame only with motor, rear hub, and drive sprocket. Might help those that want to support LMX but struggle with the full cost of 4583€.
+1

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sn0wchyld   1 MW

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Re: LMX 64 : Freeride Ebike with dual drive and torque sensor

Post by sn0wchyld » Oct 12 2018 7:40pm

Looks great guys, good work. If it was more up around the 4kw mark peak I'd even think about buying one, despite my history/preference of building my own :P
certainly if there's gonna be some dev kits i'll be interested too!

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bzhwindtalker   1 MW

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Re: LMX 64 : Freeride Ebike with dual drive and torque sensor

Post by bzhwindtalker » Oct 13 2018 12:55am

sn0wchyld wrote:
Oct 12 2018 7:40pm
around the 4kw mark
All the drivetrain and controller is capable of that no problem but we limit battery amps at 60A Peak, as it is only a 5p sanyo ga battery. But what matters most is motor current, and we have a lot of that :)
The motor is with 0.35 Steel lamination, and reach 92% efficiency on our test bench.

About frame kits, it is something we can also do like we did with the lmx81. have tout check the price for the kit without battery. We will use em3ev battery packs for serial. The bike also fits hailong packs.

Adam

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brumbrum   100 kW

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Re: LMX 64 : Freeride Ebike with dual drive and torque sensor

Post by brumbrum » Oct 13 2018 1:48am

bzhwindtalker wrote:
Oct 13 2018 12:55am
sn0wchyld wrote:
Oct 12 2018 7:40pm
around the 4kw mark
All the drivetrain and controller is capable of that no problem but we limit battery amps at 60A Peak, as it is only a 5p sanyo ga battery. But what matters most is motor current, and we have a lot of that :)
The motor is with 0.35 Steel lamination, and reach 92% efficiency on our test bench.

About frame kits, it is something we can also do like we did with the lmx81. have tout check the price for the kit without battery. We will use em3ev battery packs for serial. The bike also fits hailong packs.

Adam
Can i ask if you have tried the Nucular controller on the lmx 005 motor? i'd like to know for future possible fitment of a nucular controller when the bms for it is also released. For my lmx161 of course
My NYX and cromotor build
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=74615
My LMX 161 dirt bike build
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=94074

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bzhwindtalker   1 MW

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Re: LMX 64 : Freeride Ebike with dual drive and torque sensor

Post by bzhwindtalker » Oct 13 2018 1:56am

The motor used on the 64 is the same construction as the 161 motor, so it should work no problem. Motor only noise is reduced compared to the kelly but most of the noise is from drivetrain anyway.

We are not sure yet of the highest power/ phase amps we can safely reach with the nucular. We have to focus on serial production of the 161 so we have limited/no time to test it out. Keep in mind we deliver the 161 with a 18 fet controller, the 12F nucular might be undergunned on phase amps.

Adam

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bzhwindtalker   1 MW

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Re: LMX 64 : Freeride Ebike with dual drive and torque sensor

Post by bzhwindtalker » Oct 14 2018 12:39pm

First test in enduro yesterday, 45km ride with one battery (around 50 Wh remaining at the end)
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Next steps is photo-video shoot with actually good riders :)

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brumbrum   100 kW

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Re: LMX 64 : Freeride Ebike with dual drive and torque sensor

Post by brumbrum » Oct 14 2018 1:01pm

bzhwindtalker wrote:
Oct 13 2018 12:55am
sn0wchyld wrote:
Oct 12 2018 7:40pm
around the 4kw mark
All the drivetrain and controller is capable of that no problem but we limit battery amps at 60A Peak, as it is only a 5p sanyo ga battery. But what matters most is motor current, and we have a lot of that :)
The motor is with 0.35 Steel lamination, and reach 92% efficiency on our test bench.

About frame kits, it is something we can also do like we did with the lmx81. have tout check the price for the kit without battery. We will use em3ev battery packs for serial. The bike also fits hailong packs.

Adam
30 mile range off-road... Nice 8)

Does this bike have the same rear hub and same size 94t sprocket as the 161?

Also, wheres the controller?
My NYX and cromotor build
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=74615
My LMX 161 dirt bike build
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=94074

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Re: LMX 64 : Freeride Ebike with dual drive and torque sensor

Post by Enric » Oct 15 2018 4:12am

Hello,

Nice bike.
You say ready for +2000Watts peak power, but...

Witch it's the peak power that can be delivered by the battery ?
And The controller ?
and the motor ?

Regards,

Enric

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bzhwindtalker   1 MW

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Re: LMX 64 : Freeride Ebike with dual drive and torque sensor

Post by bzhwindtalker » Oct 15 2018 4:29am

Motor can take 4000w peak
drivetrain has been tested for 2 years at 4000W on 35 LMX 81 bikes.
Controller is capable of 5000W continuous
battery is limited to 60A peak from BMS, 40A continuous. So 3100W peak is realistic, but not very good for the battery if using 3500mah cells. It is no problem for 30Q style cells but then range would be lower.

The controller is hidden under the motor. No cables or wiring outisde of the downtube!

Adam

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Re: LMX 64 : Freeride Ebike with dual drive and torque sensor

Post by bzhwindtalker » Oct 15 2018 5:55am

Sproket on the prototype is 100t
We used that to increase torque on the ASI with limited phase amps. On the Nucular, it is not really needed :lol:

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Re: LMX 64 : Freeride Ebike with dual drive and torque sensor

Post by macribs » Oct 15 2018 3:54pm

Can't believe I missed the pedals on this unit.

Nice! :)

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Re: LMX 64 : Freeride Ebike with dual drive and torque sensor

Post by jbalat » Oct 16 2018 1:41am

Hey Adam, you know 2.6 is the new 2.4 right :D
any chance getting some fatter tyres on the thing, I’m running 3 inch on my Trek Powerfly and it’s so cool !!

BTW have you designed up any stickers for it? When will they be available in Australia ?
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Re: LMX 64 : Freeride Ebike with dual drive and torque sensor

Post by bzhwindtalker » Oct 16 2018 2:14am

I know, but so far we can't get the 2.6 hellkat in 27.5'...
:)

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Re: LMX 64 : Freeride Ebike with dual drive and torque sensor

Post by Enric » Oct 16 2018 4:45pm

bzhwindtalker wrote:
Oct 16 2018 2:14am
I know, but so far we can't get the 2.6 hellkat in 27.5'...
:)
But.. It fits a 27.5x3.0 ?

I understand that it has PAS with torque sensor and throttle override the PAS?

And brake sensors ?

The fork its tapered?

If yes, I'm looking for something like this. It has all the important points that I like to have in my next ebike.

But the second chain it gives a look so close to a motorbike that don't likes. I drive in a Natural Area and with my ebike with bbshd I don't have any problem, but the motorbikes are not welcome.

I will follow with interest the evolution of the ebike.

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Re: LMX 64 : Freeride Ebike with dual drive and torque sensor

Post by jbalat » Oct 16 2018 5:44pm

I would actually prefer a non-throttle version with torque sensing only, with 2.8 tyres, just so I can take it on the mountain bike parks without getting too much attention

Can the controller be programmed at all. It would be great to have at least three levels, say 500w, 1500w and 4kW

Ive found with torque sensing even a 750w limit will give you under 250w all the time unless you are going up a hill or pressing hard. This is how the "legal" torque sensing bikes are allowed to get around the 250w rule I'm guessing.
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Re: LMX 64 : Freeride Ebike with dual drive and torque sensor

Post by bzhwindtalker » Oct 17 2018 1:51am

The controller has torque/pas and throttle overide. It can be used with torque sensor only like any emtb, with 3 power modes, tested up to 1600w in torque mode.

The frame should fit 2.8 tires no problem for the frame, but that is actualy problematic in many forks.
The fork is tapered, the bike can take straight or tapred forks.

Adam
Last edited by bzhwindtalker on Oct 17 2018 2:01am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: LMX 64 : Freeride Ebike with dual drive and torque sensor

Post by bzhwindtalker » Oct 17 2018 1:56am

We can install e-brakes but for trail riding we actually prefer the bike without.
Both type will be available but without ebrakes by default.
Brakes are TRP top line ebike brakes, as used by aron Gwin on last DH world cup.
Adam


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Re: LMX 64 : Freeride Ebike with dual drive and torque sensor

Post by BCTECH » Oct 18 2018 12:31pm

how does the e-bike brake (regen brake) work when both side have freewheel? while the motor stops, you can still pedal to move the bike right?

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efMX Trials Electric Freeride   100 kW

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Re: LMX 64 : Freeride Ebike with dual drive and torque sensor

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » Oct 18 2018 12:43pm

BCTECH wrote:
Oct 18 2018 12:31pm
how does the e-bike brake (regen brake) work when both side have freewheel? while the motor stops, you can still pedal to move the bike right?
this lmx model does not have regen braking, just motor cutoff at brake lever, optional ..
the motor side freewheel allows the bike to be pedaled without motor power or cogging..
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http://www.youtube.com/natas666damien
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