Cross-Canada by Ebike

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Lessss   10 MW

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Re: Cross-Canada by Ebike

Post by Lessss » Aug 02 2008 5:47am

You are going to write on the back of that box.. TRANSCANADA BY ELECTRIC right?
Last edited by Lessss on Aug 03 2008 5:13pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cross-Canada by Ebike

Post by Bill Best » Aug 02 2008 8:17am

Justin, how fast can you charge your batteries? What type of charger are you using?

Thanks for keeping us updated! I'm as excited as you to see the outcome of your adventure.

I'm sure you have plenty of friends in Toronto, but you can add me to the list of people willing to provide a place to crash & charge. :D

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Re: Cross-Canada by Ebike

Post by Eric G » Aug 02 2008 10:01am

....Good Luck to ya on this Cross Canada Trip Justin !!!!! You're an inspiration to us all.
... STAY SAFE ...

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Re: Cross-Canada by Ebike

Post by mikereidis » Aug 02 2008 10:44am

justin_le wrote: Most of the buildings have outdoors outlets but of all the options for stealing electricity I thought it would be most à-propos to fill up at the Petro-Can gas station.
Filling up at Petro Can.jpg
ROFL. Be discreet or Petro-Can will start putting coin boxes on the outlets like those pay air pressure stations. :)

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Re: Cross-Canada by Ebike

Post by Lock » Aug 03 2008 5:00pm

justin_le wrote:...but of all the options for stealing electricity I thought it would be most à-propos to fill up at the Petro-Can gas station.
I *used* to do this but the fumes at the stations just smell sooooo bad now. Restautant/Bar patios are way better and more numerous...
tks
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Re: Cross-Canada by Ebike

Post by dirty_d » Aug 03 2008 5:25pm

justin, holy crap that is a pretty advanced controller, what microcontroller and fets did you use on it? you said youre measuring the unpowered phase voltage relative to the DC bus voltage, so i guess your only taking ADC samples during the PWM on time right?

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Re: Cross-Canada by Ebike

Post by Joshua Goldberg » Aug 03 2008 7:00pm

Hey Justin

I like you choice of ride. Did think the Tadpole idea was a highway accident waiting to happen and the ScooterBike needed a 20" Front Wheel to make sense.

My choice would be a RANS V2 with an Xtracycle conversion and Mueller Fairing but being as high in the saddle as you are is likely a bit safer on the highways.

Almost ordered a 5303 on a V2 48A for my trike, 20" front wheel on 80V but it won't be enough to haul my fat ass up a hill towing a trailer and so will likely order a 5304 from Kenny.

You coming through Toronto late August?

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Re: Cross-Canada by Ebike

Post by Pheno » Aug 04 2008 11:28am

Way to go justin. This is an awsome thing youo are doing. I dont know much about repairing or building e-bikes (much to the delight from my e-bike dealer) so for me to atempt such a journy would be hazordus to my well being lol.
That being said Im jellous. what a way to make a a name for your self and e-bikes. Good -luck and god speed

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Re: Cross-Canada by Ebike

Post by justin_le » Aug 05 2008 4:43am

Doctorbass wrote: If you need xtra battery when crossing Quebec to fight the wind alog the fleuve St-Laurent i can arrange you something begining by kWh :twisted: .. that would be a pleasure to me to bring you some Sony konion pack for the end of your trip!
Hey Doc, for sure, I'll trade in my 8AH NiCad pack for some 16Ah or so of Lithium if you got it! Also, if you or others along the way have ebike setups with reasonable capacities and want to join along and ride together for a part of the trip that could pretty fun. I'm averaging between 35-40 kph, so I don't think anyone on this forum will have trouble keeping up.
-Where did you got the dc-dc for the led that can accept 100V at input??? i'm searching for some!.. have you built the circuit?
These circuits are based around the LM5009 buck converter IC from National Semi. It's only good for 150mA but for running a bunch of LEDs that is plenty of power. They also have a 350mA version in the LM5008. The chip makes it quite easy to design the converter around, but it comes in a pretty fine pitch SMT IC that is a bit of a pain for prototyping.
How do you plan your trip about the schedule over a day? mow much time do you plan to ride every day? have you a planning or you feel free?
I was planning to do two complete charge cycles on the ebike per day, so around 200 km, one run in the morning, 3 hour recharge/lunch break, and then another run in the afternoon/evening. But so far with all the time spent visiting people and just checking things out, (and sleeping in!) my average has been more like 130-140 km or so. It should pick up though.

-Justin
Previously competed in the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver learning to be a dad with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with GMAC 10T rear hub motor, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah EM3EV pack
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Re: Cross-Canada by Ebike

Post by justin_le » Aug 05 2008 4:51am

Joshua Goldberg wrote:Hey Justin
I like you choice of ride. Did think the Tadpole idea was a highway accident waiting to happen and the ScooterBike needed a 20" Front Wheel to make sense.
Was originally planning to take the SooterBike, but it just didn't have cargo storage or the battery mounting space that the Xtracycle had. So I just took the scooterbike seat and attached it to the Xtracycle bike. Problem solved.

Riding on the freeways here sometimes with pretty narrow shoulders I'd be nervous on a tadpole for sure.
My choice would be a RANS V2 with an Xtracycle conversion and Mueller Fairing but being as high in the saddle as you are is likely a bit safer on the highways.


Exactly. I do feel the extra wind drag. But than I've got a 5304 on board to take care of that :wink:
You coming through Toronto late August?
Yeah I'll be there to convince your wife what a wonderful idea it is to ride an ebike across the country, no worries. -Justin
Previously competed in the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver learning to be a dad with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with GMAC 10T rear hub motor, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah EM3EV pack
My website: http://www.ebikes.ca
Please contact via email, info@ebikes.ca, rather than PMs, which are disabled

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The Chargers

Post by justin_le » Aug 05 2008 5:59am

Bill Best wrote:Justin, how fast can you charge your batteries? What type of charger are you using?
Hi Bill. Good question. My original goal was to be able to recharge the ebike from dead flat in about 2 hours. A couple years ago I scored a large stash of these Vicor DC-DC converter circuits (model VI-264-20/F1) off of ebay:
Vicor DC-DC.jpg
300V -> 36V converter module
Vicor DC-DC.jpg (27.25 KiB) Viewed 5172 times
The input can vary from 200 to 400volts DC and the output is factory set to 36V at 6 amps, all in a tiny package. I mean really tiny when you compare it to most ebike chargers which only have like a 2A output. By putting a 1MOhm resistor between the Trim and the +S leads on the output side the output voltage was tweaked up to 41.5V. So the original plan was to connect a voltage doubling rectifier out of the wall, rig it up to the input of this DC-DC module, and then feed the output adjusted to 41.5V straight into the batteries, using the internal current limit of the device to make it behave like a 6A 41.5V CC/CV charger.
Original DC-DC Charger Circuit.GIF
Original DC-DC Charger Circuit.GIF (4.09 KiB) Viewed 5156 times
Unfortunately that arrangement would overheat and go into thermal shutdown within just a minute or two of charging. Apparently even though the output is current limitted to 6A, it is also not supposed to exceed 170 watts, which at 41.5V is more like 4 amps. So, I had to rethink things a bit and wire up a feedback circuit using an op-amp and a current sensing shunt resistor in order so that the Trim pin on the DC-DC converter would be governed to run a constant current output rather than a constant voltage. I don't have time to sketch the schematic right now, but in short it ended up with a potentiometer with which one can dial in the desired current, from 1A up to 5A, as well as orange and green LED's to indicate which charging state it is in.
Homemade Charger Insides.jpg
Homemade Charger Insides.jpg (81.35 KiB) Viewed 5156 times
At 4A it still gets hot and shuts down after about an hour, so either I need to pour water on the heatsink on a regular basis or tweak it down to 3A to make good use.

Anyways, So I have two of these homemade units, one commercial 36V 4A lithium charger, as well as a 36V 4A NiMH charger. So in the case with all four chargers plugged in I can have 14 amps or so of charging current. But having 4 chargers to wire up and connect is a bit of a pain, so I usually just connect 2 or 3 of them. What's the rush eh?

Justin
Previously competed in the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver learning to be a dad with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with GMAC 10T rear hub motor, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah EM3EV pack
My website: http://www.ebikes.ca
Please contact via email, info@ebikes.ca, rather than PMs, which are disabled

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Trip Progress So Far

Post by justin_le » Aug 05 2008 6:34am

Hi Guys, here is a link to a map that shows the trip progress to date. I haven't done any 200+ km days yet, but that'll start happening soon enough.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&saddr=4 ... 449463&z=8
Map to Vernon.gif
Map to Vernon.gif (75.55 KiB) Viewed 5143 times
The electrical energy consumption stats are as follows (Net Ah, % Regen, Net Watt-hours, Distance, Time):

Vancouver -> White Rock 17.15 Ah 7.97% 623.5 Wh 46.96 km 1:37:20
White Rock -> Hope 31.70 Ah 5.07% 1223.2 Wh 128.14 km 3:38:00
Hope -> Manning 27.42 Ah 2.94% 1055.2 Wh 67.46 km 2:14:24
Manning -> Princeton 15.79 Ah 17.72% 610.5 Wh 71.33 km 2:09:54
Princeton -> Penticton 34.90 Ah 5.04% 1347.1 Wh 120 km 3:36:00
Penticton -> Vernon 44.01 Ah 4.70% 1717.0 Wh 119.7 km 3:32:00

So current sitting at just over 6.5 KWh of electricity used to go some 554 km.

I'm in Vernon right now and heading to Revelstoke tomorrow. Anyone along the way please feel free to drop me a line.
-Justin
Previously competed in the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver learning to be a dad with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with GMAC 10T rear hub motor, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah EM3EV pack
My website: http://www.ebikes.ca
Please contact via email, info@ebikes.ca, rather than PMs, which are disabled

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Re: Cross-Canada by Ebike

Post by paultrafalgar » Aug 05 2008 9:15am

For those of you who like spreadsheets here's one I knocked up quickly with Justin's data. Please check it for errors. The last column is an attempt to get a view of how the power consumption varies with speed; I guess the differences could be due to hills climbed. Some industrious soul might want to get that from Google maps/Earth :)
JustinTransCanada.xls[/attachment ][attachment=0]JustinTransCanada.ods
Attachments
JustinTransCanada.xls
Microsoft Format
(108 KiB) Downloaded 199 times
JustinTransCanada.ods
Open Document Format
(9.98 KiB) Downloaded 149 times
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Re: Cross-Canada by Ebike

Post by seanreit » Aug 05 2008 9:28am

For the Americans following along, we pay .105 a KWH down here in Texas. As I'm understanding it, Justin has gone 550 KM on 60 cents American. If I have messed up a decimal place, please let me know.

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Re: Cross-Canada by Ebike

Post by paultrafalgar » Aug 05 2008 10:26am

seanreit wrote:For the Americans following along, we pay .105 a KWH down here in Texas. As I'm understanding it, Justin has gone 550 KM on 60 cents American. If I have messed up a decimal place, please let me know.
Can't see anything wrong with your calculation, Sean. GREAT! isn't it. But don't tell those oilmen down there or they might not like it :wink:
P.S. Tell everyone else though!
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Re: Cross-Canada by Ebike

Post by Lock » Aug 05 2008 4:24pm

paultrafalgar wrote:...differences could be due to hills climbed.
Ahem... yes, there are hills in BC <grin>... Vernon about 1,140 ft above sea level!
Not sure what route Justin is taking but if TransCanada Hwy up ahead are Rogers Pass 4,340ft and Kicking Horse Pass 5,340ft.
tks
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Re: Cross-Canada by Ebike

Post by Zoot Katz » Aug 05 2008 7:35pm

seanreit wrote:For the Americans following along, we pay .105 a KWH down here in Texas. As I'm understanding it, Justin has gone 550 KM on 60 cents American. If I have messed up a decimal place, please let me know.
Electricity in BC costs $0.0655/kWh. So that's $0.36025 CND worth of hydro generated juice. Or just less than eleven cents per hundred miles.
If those rates held across the whole country (~4000 miles) he'd be spending less than half his ten-dollar energy budget.
Or about 5% of what it would cost to do it in a diesel Smart car without 95% of the fun.

Bikes Rule!
GO JUSTIN!

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Re: Cross-Canada by Ebike

Post by Lock » Aug 05 2008 8:46pm

Zoot Katz wrote:If those rates held across the whole country...Bikes Rule! GO JUSTIN!

(And he is not EVen fully-faired!)

Ahem... "Hydro" rates are smoke and mirrors... HELLO?

Ontario just announced another electricity rate reduction... Yer quoting official rates that really just pander to the ignorant electorate (voters)...

Ontario "Hydro" is cheap if you ignore those swimming pools full of heavy water and nuke waste... In BC, like Ontario, I expect crumbling infrastructure that was paid for decades ago but not kept up (like Ontario highways and overpasses.)

I always say to my daughters (the two that I know of) Thanks Kids! ...for inheriting our National Debt...

Yer shoving the costs of (20th-Century) excesses on to future generations... it's a flawed (20th Century) economic model...

Pls. don't quote numbers w/out context
[/Accounting Hat Off]
tks
Lock
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Re: Cross-Canada by Ebike

Post by John in CR » Aug 05 2008 10:01pm

Lock wrote:...Ahem... "Hydro" rates are smoke and mirrors... HELLO?

Ontario just announced another electricity rate reduction... Yer quoting official rates that really just pander to the ignorant electorate (voters)...

Ontario "Hydro" is cheap if you ignore those swimming pools full of heavy water and nuke waste... In BC, like Ontario, I expect crumbling infrastructure that was paid for decades ago but not kept up (like Ontario highways and overpasses.)

I always say to my daughters (the two that I know of) Thanks Kids! ...for inheriting our National Debt...

Yer shoving the costs of (20th-Century) excesses on to future generations... it's a flawed (20th Century) economic model...

Pls. don't quote numbers w/out context
[/Accounting Hat Off]
tks
Lock
Lock,

I'm sure the food Justin has to eat to supply the energy he uses while pedaling costs far more than even your "fully loaded" electric rate, whatever that is since you didn't quantify it. BTW if you really put on an "accounting hat" you'd realize that your accounting leaves out the National Assets, not to mention the economic stimulus that the 20th century spending created. Did your great grandparents and grandparents say thank you to your parents and you for having to spend all that money to create the infrastructure to begin with? The only true cost that you touched on is if there is a cost in human suffering created by poisons to the environment, and in that regard I am in 100% agreement, otherwise cost is just a paper number and debt too is meaningless without considering the assets. Governmental accounting is such a crock. It's only record keeping and a proper accounting of nothing.

I'm sorry, but I believe your viewpoint is jaded and fundamentally flawed. The 20th century was the greatest in history, and the 21st will be even better as the forced conversion is made from fossil fuels to alternative energy sources.

Justin, you're getting great mileage especially considering that load. How much are you pedaling? Here's an idea, keep track of your daily food consumption too during your journey. Then do some flat segments on electric power alone, and others with maximum pedal assist. Then you'll be able to clearly demonstrate how EV power is better than human power, not just better than smoker power. You'll be helping to feed the hungry too. :D

John

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Re: Cross-Canada by Ebike

Post by Zoot Katz » Aug 05 2008 10:29pm

Lock wrote:
Zoot Katz wrote:If those rates held across the whole country...Bikes Rule! GO JUSTIN!

(And he is not EVen fully-faired!)

Ahem... "Hydro" rates are smoke and mirrors... HELLO?

Ontario just announced another electricity rate reduction... Yer quoting official rates that really just pander to the ignorant electorate (voters)...

Ontario "Hydro" is cheap if you ignore those swimming pools full of heavy water and nuke waste... In BC, like Ontario, I expect crumbling infrastructure that was paid for decades ago but not kept up (like Ontario highways and overpasses.)

I always say to my daughters (the two that I know of) Thanks Kids! ...for inheriting our National Debt...

Yer shoving the costs of (20th-Century) excesses on to future generations... it's a flawed (20th Century) economic model...

Pls. don't quote numbers w/out context
[/Accounting Hat Off]
tks
Lock
True. I'd not taken into account what might be considered "externalised costs". Like ambulances, law enforcement, ashtma, water pollution, highway crews, and the cost of free parking included in the price of my food with the currently prevailing transportaion modes.
Infrastructure replacement costs will be huge unless we change our way of getting around.
A bridge for bicycles, one mile long, two lanes wide, could move as many people per hour as one twelve lane wide for cars, four lanes for buses and three lanes for automated trains*.
We sold our souls when we tore up the rails.

*According to Ivan Illich.

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Re: Cross-Canada by Ebike

Post by Doctorbass » Aug 06 2008 1:41am

justin_le wrote:
Doctorbass wrote: If you need xtra battery when crossing Quebec to fight the wind alog the fleuve St-Laurent i can arrange you something begining by kWh :twisted: .. that would be a pleasure to me to bring you some Sony konion pack for the end of your trip!
Hey Doc, for sure, I'll trade in my 8AH NiCad pack for some 16Ah or so of Lithium if you got it! Also, if you or others along the way have ebike setups with reasonable capacities and want to join along and ride together for a part of the trip that could pretty fun. I'm averaging between 35-40 kph, so I don't think anyone on this forum will have trouble keeping up.


-Justin
That's a great idea!

I was planning to make a short 170km trip to La Pocatière at the end of summer. It's at 150km in east of Quebec on the highway 20.
So i would be happy to join you for that part of your trip!! I was also planning to ride at 35-40kph using 50.2V 46Ah of Konion pack! Enough juice for that ride and keep resonable accelerations too!

Ideally i will need to know when you will arrive at Quebec as soon as you approach to be able to prepare me for the trip!

Go Justin go! We are all with you along that trip!

Oh by the way.. A journalist of a popular newspaper come to my home tomorrow to write an article about my ebike construction and battery recycling!.. I prepared some demonstrations! :twisted:


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Re: Cross-Canada by Ebike

Post by justin_le » Aug 06 2008 2:43am

paultrafalgar wrote:For those of you who like spreadsheets here's one I knocked up quickly with Justin's data. Please check it for errors. The last column is an attempt to get a view of how the power consumption varies with speed; I guess the differences could be due to hills climbed. Some industrious soul might want to get that from Google maps/Earth :)
I think that the attached data is more in line with what you would want to be looking for for doing that kind of correlation. This is for the stretch from Hope BC to the lodge in Manning Park, and it shouldn't be too hard to use google earth to get the slope / elevation data along the way.
CA Data Hope to Manning.gif
Graph of Speed and Current draw
CA Data Hope to Manning.gif (30.86 KiB) Viewed 2396 times
Generally going up the passes which are around 4-5% grade or so I'm using the full 30A on the controller, maintaining just under 30 kph. While on the flats it is more like 37-42 kph with current draws in the 5 to 15 A range depending on the headwind. Unfortunately I lost the data for the trip down the other side since my laptop battery died, but I got nearly 3 Ah of regen back into the battery pack. Tomorrow morning I start the trek up and over the Rocky Mountains so I'll try to make sure all this data gets saved.
Attachments
Day03, Hope to Manning Lodge.zip
Raw CA data for Hope to Manning Lodge trip
(72.3 KiB) Downloaded 111 times
Previously competed in the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver learning to be a dad with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with GMAC 10T rear hub motor, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah EM3EV pack
My website: http://www.ebikes.ca
Please contact via email, info@ebikes.ca, rather than PMs, which are disabled

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Re: Cross-Canada by Ebike

Post by Zoot Katz » Aug 06 2008 3:21am

justin_le wrote:
Generally going up the passes which are around 4-5% grade or so I'm using the full 30A on the controller, maintaining just under 30 kph. While on the flats it is more like 37-42 kph with current draws in the 5 to 15 A range depending on the headwind. Unfortunately I lost the data for the trip down the other side since my laptop battery died, but I got nearly 3 Ah of regen back into the battery pack. Tomorrow morning I start the trek up and over the Rocky Mountains so I'll try to make sure all this data gets saved.
I know of no place to plug in past Albert Canyon before you reach the summit of Roger's Pass. Maybe the ranger at the park gate will know.
The new bridges through the Kicking Horse hopefully make the road safer than the old route.
Drafting chip haulers through Eagle Pass was what I did for fun when I lived in Revelstoke. Mountain bikes hadn't been invented yet.

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Re: Cross-Canada by Ebike

Post by justin_le » Aug 06 2008 3:45am

Zoot Katz wrote: I know of no place to plug in past Albert Canyon before you reach the summit of Roger's Pass. Maybe the ranger at the park gate will know.
The new bridges through the Kicking Horse hopefully make the road safer than the old route.
Drafting chip haulers through Eagle Pass was what I did for fun when I lived in Revelstoke. Mountain bikes hadn't been invented yet.
Ha ha. Well I'm in Revelstoke charging up right now and hope to make it to the summit of Roger's Pass in a single charge from here. Is there a touristy info booth kind of thing at the top which is likely to have power? I'm pretty sure I can make it there on my 36Ah but I definitely won't have enough to carry on all the way to Golden.

Justin
Previously competed in the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver learning to be a dad with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with GMAC 10T rear hub motor, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah EM3EV pack
My website: http://www.ebikes.ca
Please contact via email, info@ebikes.ca, rather than PMs, which are disabled

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paultrafalgar   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 915
Joined: Feb 15 2008 5:41am
Location: Forest of Dean, UK

Re: Cross-Canada by Ebike

Post by paultrafalgar » Aug 06 2008 4:02am

For those interested in getting elevation data out of Google Earth, read this:
http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/showflat.php ... t/all/vc/1
which points to this:
http://www.nearby.org.uk/elevation-kml.php (for the UK)

BTW, I don't own and ebike :oops: let alone a CA, so if someone can explain a useful way to process the Day3 data that Justin provided, I'd be very interested to hear from you. (Not you Justin - you've too much to do at present!)
If we knew what it was we were doing, it would not be called research, would it? Albert Einstein
A paranoid is someone who has SOME idea of what's going on. Allen Ginsberg(?)
If the greatest pleasure is giving, be selfish - give pleasure.

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