Integrated controllers

For my next build I'm seriously contemplating an integrated controller due to less wiring and possible points of water ingress.

What are the advantages or disadvantages of integrating the controller in the battery versus the hub motor? I would imagine the hub is the preferred location (a la the magic pie) because the excess heart won't damage the battery cells.

Hub Motor generates heat, Controller also generates heat.

1+1=2

Unless you have a weak setup >1000w. Then it shouldn't be too much of a problem.

But batteries really hate heat, right? More so than a DD motor? Plus they are much more expensive to replace.

Of course, but those controllers that are integrated into the battery are usually only around 250-350 Watts. and have heatsink on one end which is usually sufficient.

I have seen integrated hub motor Controllers that can go up to 30A like the Magic pie. But if you encounter a long slope it's also going to struggle thermally.

So I guess it all depends on what you want/need. For instance, if you want a stealthy ebike with a tiny front or rear hub you'll probably want your controller integrated into the Battery. But If a large diameter hub motor does not bother you then you can go with that.

But if you are like me and want a 5000 Watt E-bike then you definitely want an external Controller.

legendary 1000W Tidal Force and 1000W Eplus ebike drives both use built in controllers , both designed and build in USA .
also latest Falco drive designed by the same engineering team also uses internal controllers.
if you consider that TF , Eplus and Falco motor has from 4 to 5 /five/ sensors built in
no matter what you do those drives are fail save designs
Eplus and Falco uses FOC controllers - very sophisticated.
you cannot electrically destroy them
imagine all this wires if the controller was external????
my 1000W Eplus approaches 25 000 kilometers millage - testimony to superb USA engineering .

China Magic P is a joke in comparison , cheap , shoddy design.

So far this is what i've gathered


Magic Pi ~ $500
https://www.goldenmotor.bike/

falco ~ $1000
http://www.electricbicycleworld.com/emotors/

the question i have is where are the E+ motors? are they still being made?
Same question with 1000W Tidal Force. google brings up some older links and articles

basically i'm making a rat rod for a bike, and having am external controller and wires isn't what i'm looking for. This could be a good thread for people who specifically want integrated controller for personal preference.

lets keep the info flowing.

I was actually looking at the Magic Pie but couldn't tell how water proof it was. Does anyone know how waterproof either the Falco or the Magic Pie is? Living in the PNW this my biggest concern. The only other thing I've found is the Luna cycle waterproof kit that specifically calls it out.

I have the Magic Pie V5...

The builders have made an attempt to waterproof the hub with silicone at the seams. Check out some disassembly videos.
But just looking where the wiring harness goes in to the hub, I can see gaps. So I would not be comfortable without tearing it down and doing a top notch job to ride it in heavy rain. The controller is potted.


The motor does not have any temperature sensing... but the controller does. Which should shut down the motor before damage could occur.


Regards,
T.C.

TommyCat said:

I have the Magic Pie V5...

snip

Regards,
T.C.

Click to expand...

how do you like your Magic Pie v5? I may go this route as well

There really isn't a way to completely waterproof a hubmotor. See the http://ebikes.ca site blog from a while back, for a video about water ingress into motors.

EDIT: this thread links to the vid
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=34972

I coudn't get YT to cooperate but this link should get you to somewhere close to where the main water issue discussion starts?
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=34972

I thought there was anohter vid with more stuff on the water issues but couldn't find it.

In fact, looking at the water proofing issue. Some have suggested to even leave a way for the water to get out, so it doesn't get trapped and cause damage. :? It's been said that the Pie does well in wet conditions anyway, and that it's better to protect the battery.

destro23 said:

how do you like your Magic Pie v5? I may go this route as well

Click to expand...

I like it very much! It does everything I was looking for... This is from the first page of my build, see the link in my signature below.


Mission Statement:

To build an electric powered, two wheeled, one person bicycle, that requires no manual input to get you where you want to go.
(No pedal assist desired here...)

Yep, twist and go is what I wanted, and GOT! I'm a fair weather, mainly flat land rider on trails and paved roads. No gear jamming here!

That has a range of at least 20 miles. Having a display that accurately depicts speed, power remaining and amp draw.

More to do about the battery...Got the BAC-601 display, like it! Power remaining LEDS...not so much, modified. Added Bayite display to see more of what's going on.

Available in an easy to procure kit.

Sold in USA and Canada...

That is easy to control and ride. Having a soft, comfortable ride. (No mountain trails here...)

Heavy Pie in back, battery on downtube. No problems... Lol got a bigger seat...

Quiet, safe, and easy to maintain.

Smooth as butter, very quiet, no motor problems at all.

To be legal on bike paths.

Enjoyed programming the controller to States bike laws. Power and speed. NICE.

With minimal exposed wiring. Having a neat and clean install.

This is a bit tougher. But with the wiring harness it's practically plug and play.



So over all I'm very satisfied with the Pie. Dislikes I'm planning on addressing would be not having disconnects on the motor harness that are close to the motor for easy wheel removal. Any particular questions just ask. But the build log has a lot of information...with more to come. :wink:

My two biggest TIPS so far...1) Torque arms are a MUST! And properly secure unused wiring! See THIS!


Regards,
T.C.

Diarmuid said:

The only other thing I've found is the Luna cycle waterproof kit that specifically calls it out.

Click to expand...

Look closely, that controller has no PAS and is basically a B-Flat low end controller. I have a couple of them. Only of use to ebikekit and luna kits.

destro23 said:

So far this is what i've gathered


Magic Pi ~ $500
https://www.goldenmotor.bike/

falco ~ $1000
http://www.electricbicycleworld.com/emotors/

the question i have is where are the E+ motors? are they still being made?
Same question with 1000W Tidal Force. google brings up some older links and articles

basically i'm making a rat rod for a bike, and having am external controller and wires isn't what i'm looking for. This could be a good thread for people who specifically want integrated controller for personal preference.

lets keep the info flowing.

Click to expand...

Want to add Bafang mid drives have the controller built in.

destro23 said:

the question i have is where are the E+ motors? are they still being made?

Click to expand...

there is Aug. 2022 right now
I ride both of my Epluses, one summer and one winter.
Just came back from 55 Kilometers trip around Calgary, CANADA
BOTH of course do not use original NMH batteries, they belong to museum.
BOTH my Epluses, I converted to pouch-cell battery packs.
my summer Eplus approaching 45000 kilometers shown on CA clearly.

55km - Is that common place or one of your commonplace longer or longest ride?

How many close calls have you had?
- It should calm down in the next week when the children and post secondaries go back to school and their parents get back to the grind.

How many years is 45k km?

miro13car said:

there is Aug. 2022 right now
I ride both of my Epluses, one summer and one winter.
Just came back from 55 Kilometers trip around Calgary, CANADA
BOTH of course do not use original NMH batteries, they belong to museum.
BOTH my Epluses, I converted to pouch-cell battery packs.
my summer Eplus approaching 45000 kilometers shown on CA clearly.

Click to expand...

around 40-50 kilometers /day - quite typical for June-August summer period.
of course I had close calls during such millage.
It took around 8 years to get such millage, I also ride my summer Eplus in May and September.
yes internal controller heats up but is protected from overheating , will NOT burn .
schools starts? - I keep riding

TommyCat said:

Dislikes I'm planning on addressing would be not having disconnects on the motor harness that are close to the motor for easy wheel removal.

Click to expand...

That seems to be the biggest complaint about all Golden Motor products. I will not purchase anything from them until they get a new wiring harness.

I think the only way to totally waterproof a motor is to seal it and fill it with oil. Otherwise one will always have the condensation issue to deal with. See Justin's video: https://youtu.be/92aAfYXBgbg