Lines erased E-Bike / E-Scooter / E Motorcycle

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
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Re: Lines erased E-Bike / E-Scooter / E Motorcycle

Post by billvon » Jun 11 2018 1:20pm

John in CR wrote:
Jun 10 2018 8:17am
I don't know why pedalists continue to try to claim the words bike and ebike.
Because everyone knows what bike and ebike mean and no one knows what "pedalist" means.
--bill von

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wturber   100 kW

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Re: Lines erased E-Bike / E-Scooter / E Motorcycle

Post by wturber » Jun 11 2018 1:42pm

Chalo wrote:
Jun 11 2018 12:20am
wturber wrote:
Jun 10 2018 11:27pm
Also, the right to use a lane in Arizona is hardly "unconditional." I don't know, but I suspect this kind of condition is common.
Everybody has rules of the road to follow. But a cyclist has no preconditions to being able to use the road, where a motorist usually must be

- licensed (both driver and car)
- registered
- insured
- inspected
- using an approved vehicle type with VIN
OK. I understand now what you intended. Unconditional as in "no prerequisites."
Chalo wrote:
Jun 11 2018 12:20am
before even being present on the roadway. Given the relative risks imposed by motorists versus bicyclists, this is all good and appropriate.
Right, and also points to how the origin of a bicyclist's right and lack of any prerequisite precedes the paving of any road. That right actually come from common law and our fundamental rights as human beans to travel. Before the automobile that meant by foot, horse, carriage, etc. There is no registration prerequisite because the risks and potential harm to others from such travel is so low as to be negligible. Cars initially had no such requirements either and some people argue that Constitutionally they still do not. And this, of course is where the variants in e-bikes legislation comes in. Nobody knows when the potential likelihood to harm is enough to justify licensing and so forth. So we are now experimenting and trying to figure out where, how, and if to draw such lines.
Chalo wrote:
Jun 11 2018 12:20am
But it's weird when motorists seem to think that cyclists have lesser rights to use the road (or none at all), when in fact the cyclists are allowed by default, and motorists are allowed only if they meet a fistful of specific criteria. That's apart from the historical fact that cyclists got us pavement and motorists only hogged it.
I don't think it is weird at all. The roads are clearly generally built to cater to the needs of motorists and not to the needs of cyclists. Gas taxes that fund significant amounts of road building and maintenance bolster the notion that "roads are for cars." Add to this the fact that most people aren't well educated regarding their rights or the rights of others and the result seems pretty predictable and non-weird to me. What would be weird to me would be if people actually understood cyclist rights. Heck, too frequently even the police do not.

Sad? Yes. Weird? Not to my eyes.
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onemorejoltwarden   100 W

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Re: Lines erased E-Bike / E-Scooter / E Motorcycle

Post by onemorejoltwarden » Oct 11 2018 2:27pm

Was reading Vanderbilt's book, "Traffic" which is a great resource for the discussion, and history of the debates
As is "The High Cost of Free Parking"
with Neighborhood EV's, Low speed EV's, Golf carts and Scooter vendors joining the fray with balance boarders and e-skaters on the fringe, it is another case of technology getting way ahead of the "rules of the road".
As more injuries and deaths occur the Risk of Harm issue is getting the data it needs
Good discussion here of the relevant variables and in place systems for their address
My Camry Hybrid has almost no user serviceable. parts
The European TUV wants almost no modifications of approved vehicles
When the use of the commons gets to a certain mass it just needs laws
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Re: Lines erased E-Bike / E-Scooter / E Motorcycle

Post by MadRhino » Oct 11 2018 4:20pm

Today was one of those days that hard acceleration saved my bones. Cagers are in their own world, isolated and distracted off the other users of the street. This one did hit a street lamp post while he was looking at something inside of his car, and I was going to be crushed on it.

Who cares if it is a bike or a motorcycle, after it is folded between a bumper and a post. I had the awareness and power to evade soon enough, that was my only concern.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
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onemorejoltwarden   100 W

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Re: Lines erased E-Bike / E-Scooter / E Motorcycle

Post by onemorejoltwarden » Oct 12 2018 4:03am

Another angle on this discussion on an industrial/ manufacturing angle is
"Click Here to Destroy Everything" which discusses how these issues are present in other applications of tech
https://youtu.be/YtCTN38mR2c?t=265

We need regulation that is mindful , but are headed toward a more "Mad Max" like
with its empowerments but also its treatment of the vulnerable

Rhino, your post is a metaphor, too, when you think that the cager that almost hit you, drives the law like they drive the cage,
with the same intelligence and attention. And you are the cager to the pedestrian.
"One more jolt, Warden, he's still twitching."

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Re: Lines erased E-Bike / E-Scooter / E Motorcycle

Post by liveforphysics » Oct 12 2018 4:20am

Over 110mph some ebikes feel squirrely, some don't.

The idea of the human constructed need to fit into someone's else's human constructed bounds is what fades away.

My level of power to feel comfortable on an ebike in traffic is 5-15kW, more always offering the ability for improving safety. Around 50kW they start to become a handful to keep bicycle tires alive.
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Re: Lines erased E-Bike / E-Scooter / E Motorcycle

Post by MadRhino » Oct 12 2018 7:17am

onemorejoltwarden wrote:
Oct 12 2018 4:03am
...
We need regulation that is mindful , but are headed toward a more "Mad Max" like
with its empowerments but also its treatment of the vulnerable

Rhino, your post is a metaphor, too, when you think that the cager that almost hit you, drives the law like they drive the cage,
with the same intelligence and attention. And you are the cager to the pedestrian.
It is not about the law. It is about being conscious of other users of the street. On 2 wheels if you are not paying attention, your riding career is likely to be very short. No law can help.

Pedestrians are not users of the street. They cross only, sometimes with little consciousness too. Let’s say they are much safer crossing unconsciously in front of a bike than a car. The rider is always the one with the highest risk to be hurt. Most of the time a pedestrian does cross the street in front of a bike, the rider does succeed avoiding hitting him, at the cost of his own skin and bones.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
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Re: Lines erased E-Bike / E-Scooter / E Motorcycle

Post by LockH » Oct 12 2018 11:21am

"Re: Lines erased E-Bike / E-Scooter / E Motorcycle"... So. Does it have operable pedals? In "my world" of urban travels I am trying to mix in with "the bicycle crowd" traveling at "bicycle speeds" ... and to use existing crumbling biking "infrastructure". With pedals, at least can "faux" pedal when needed. ;)
Last edited by LockH on Oct 12 2018 12:06pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Lines erased E-Bike / E-Scooter / E Motorcycle

Post by Chalo » Oct 12 2018 12:04pm

More kinetic energy means worse consequences when something goes wrong. And something always goes wrong, sooner or later. More often when it's all happening very quickly.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: Lines erased E-Bike / E-Scooter / E Motorcycle

Post by LockH » Oct 12 2018 12:11pm

^^ Watt he said. Just to elaborate perhaps... Many "larger" folks travel on bikes loaded with lots of luggage... groceries and stuff. Even a rider hanging on to life on a back seat. AND can travel "at speed" going down hills. So lots of "bikes" can have lots of KE. :wink:
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Re: Lines erased E-Bike / E-Scooter / E Motorcycle

Post by MadRhino » Oct 12 2018 12:29pm

Mopeds and scooters are the worst for safety. Most of them have poor handling, poor performance, and poor braking distance. It is easy to build an ebike that is safer in the trafic than mopeds and scooters. It is not so hard to build an ebike that is safer than most motorcycles.

In the city here, plain pedal bikes have more accidents than any other vehicles. Few fatalities, but lots of collisions with minor injuries. A car is responsible in 60% of the cases. The cycle paths are not separated enough from the street. Most are only a painted line, and the network is far from covering all the city neighbourhoods. Bikes are riding the streets with the cars everywhere. It is a situation that is a neat disadvantage for the slower ones on the street.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
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Re: Lines erased E-Bike / E-Scooter / E Motorcycle

Post by LockH » Oct 12 2018 6:35pm

Hehe...On an online forum where folks tap about "actually race it in the desert without overtemp mode kicking in"?

`cuase of humanity has "no clue"... electrically - speaking.

:mrgreen:
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Re: Lines erased E-Bike / E-Scooter / E Motorcycle

Post by markz » Oct 12 2018 8:42pm

LockH wrote:
Oct 12 2018 12:11pm
"larger"
"bikes" can have lots of KE. :wink:
Hehe
Meaning "fat" or "obese" or "big boned" or "over weight"
Dont go p.c. on us now LockH
Hehe

Chalo wrote:
Oct 12 2018 12:04pm
More kinetic energy
lots of kinetic energy on ebikes
more so with high powered ebikes or shall we say it what it really is "motorcycles"

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Re: Lines erased E-Bike / E-Scooter / E Motorcycle

Post by LockH » Oct 12 2018 9:20pm

^^ Hehe... In a 21st-century urban world... full of stop-and-go traffic... kinda addicted to torque, eh? aka highest average speed of travel. ;)
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Re: Lines erased E-Bike / E-Scooter / E Motorcycle

Post by StuRat » Oct 12 2018 9:41pm

The main defining point should be maximum 60 volts.
That is the world accepted safe DC voltage level. And ebikes are very hands on at the user level, trained or untrained.

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Re: Lines erased E-Bike / E-Scooter / E Motorcycle

Post by LockH » Oct 12 2018 10:06pm

^^ Hehe... watt varies from place to place? EG in Canada, eh? The Building Codes diff. between "low voltage" and "high voltage" at "only" fifty volts. Yet have seen many thousands of volts running through a human body... only at just about *zero* amps. :wink:
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Re: Lines erased E-Bike / E-Scooter / E Motorcycle

Post by MadRhino » Oct 13 2018 12:41am

Defining ebikes by voltage, is like defining cars by the PSI of their fuel pump.

The safe usage of the streets is regulated by speed limits, not by vehicles performance limitations. Why should it be different for bikes? Because they are not burning gas? Not consuming space and facilities in the city? Because they don’t make trafic jams?

Bikes are vehicles just like any other. Some cars are low performance, some are racing machines, they are all regulated by the same street speed limitations. Telling the smaller he has to be slower, is to make sure the bigger can run him over?
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
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Re: Lines erased E-Bike / E-Scooter / E Motorcycle

Post by markz » Oct 13 2018 12:49pm

I would only add to that with safe usage of posted speed limits and enforcement of traffic law, along with public campaign ads. More undercover ghost fuzz in school and playground zones, undercover fuzz riding plain bicycles, crossing crosswalks, more unique ways of enforcement, better technology and implementation. Red light/speed camera's are obvious asfuck. Why not make them smaller, and hide them behind signs, start nabbing them left right and center. Buy more said camera's and rotate them frequently. Have fake camera's, fake fuzz cars, and switch up the make from all Ford to a mix of Chev, Dodge, Toyota, Honda. I know counties in the USA that have done that, heck they even used blow up figures like they did in world war 1 or 2. Have undercover old shit box rust buckets fuzzies nabbing tailgaters, would have to have a marked unit pull them over.



MadRhino wrote:
Oct 13 2018 12:41am
The safe usage of the streets is regulated by speed limits

Why should it be different for bikes?

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Re: Lines erased E-Bike / E-Scooter / E Motorcycle

Post by biggy » Oct 13 2018 1:58pm

In my state of virginia, the ebike limit is 1000 Watts 25 mph. After that than you need a registration and you will be considered a motor vehicle. anything under that you are considered in the same class as a bicycle, power assist bicycle, disability Mobility device. My fastest bike I clocked via GPS 48 miles per hour I do not use motorcycle tires but I do ride a Maxxis hookworm in the back because it deals with the weight of the Hub motor better. i feel safe on it and it stops really well because of its low weight and disk brakes. In my opinion I believe it is still a bicycle and I don't think you should need a license or registration to operate it. If you've ever watched a bicycle road race on TV and looked at the miles per hour that those guys are going then you know a man powered bicycle is very capable of high speeds.

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Re: Lines erased E-Bike / E-Scooter / E Motorcycle

Post by wturber » Oct 13 2018 2:57pm

MadRhino wrote:
Oct 13 2018 12:41am

Bikes are vehicles just like any other. Some cars are low performance, some are racing machines, they are all regulated by the same street speed limitations. Telling the smaller he has to be slower, is to make sure the bigger can run him over?
At a certain low level of maximum performance, they are no longer just like any other vehicle. That's why bicycles and pedestrians have had unique sets of rules applied to them for decades. The matter of how fast an electric bicycle or motorcycle can go should not be dictated any more than it is is for motor vehicles. But if the choice is to go the same speeds as motor vehicles, the electric motorcyclist should understand that he or she will have to be regulated in a similar manner. If the ebiker wants the lower level of regulation and special privileges that a bicyclist enjoys, then he or she needs to accept the the lower speeds that justify that lower level of regulation and the granting of a small number of special privileges.
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Re: Lines erased E-Bike / E-Scooter / E Motorcycle

Post by wturber » Oct 13 2018 3:14pm

biggy wrote:
Oct 13 2018 1:58pm
If you've ever watched a bicycle road race on TV and looked at the miles per hour that those guys are going then you know a man powered bicycle is very capable of high speeds.
Sure. But how often does that occur among the general population while commuting or riding for sport? Almost never.

My observation is that speeds over 25 mph are almost exclusively limited to very short duration spurts and downhill riding situations. In the past year, I've been passed by another cyclist while riding my ebike only once (two cyclists together actually - drafting). And that was on a downhill road when I was in no particular hurry and was cruising at about 23mph. If I had checked my rearview mirror, maybe I'd have sped up. :^)

Yes, I can pedal a regular bicycle to go well over 25 mph on flat ground. But as a practical matter, I seldom did so. And most other cyclists do so even less frequently than I did. There's a reason that Google maps uses a base speed of around 10 mph in estimating estimating bike trip times. That pro cyclists can travel at high speeds is interesting, but mostly irrelevant. The laws aren't designed for their exceptional performance and tolerating their rare exception is no great burden on traffic or society. But if you suddenly have many thousands riding at those speeds, the complexion of things changes.
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Re: Lines erased E-Bike / E-Scooter / E Motorcycle

Post by MadRhino » Oct 13 2018 6:43pm

wturber wrote:
Oct 13 2018 3:14pm
... The laws aren't designed for their exceptional performance and tolerating their rare exception is no great burden on traffic or society. But if you suddenly have many thousands riding at those speeds, the complexion of things changes.

As long as street usage have speed limits, the performance of cyclists, ebikes or motorcycles is irrelevant. What if cyclists are riding the streets at the posted speed limit? The trafic will have better flow, they won’t be perceived as a nuisance anymore, and obviously they will be safer. That is what happens with fast ebikes and motorcycles, that are able to cope with trafic flow.

Pedalists are riders too, and like any rider they are assuming the highest risk in the trafic. Any collision, any small crash, is most likely to cause some injury to a rider. So, their perception of the regulations is that rules are coming second after survival. Pedalists are those breaking the rules most often, because of their performance disadvantage and their higher risk of injury. They run the red lights everytime they have a chance, they just slow down on stop signs, zig-zag their way through anything on their way... Not all of them, but it is a common behaviour in city trafic.

Different rules for bicycles (and low performance ebikes), are making sense only when they don’t have to mix on the street with 2 tons vehicles moving twice faster. Cycle path have lower speed limitations, with their own privileges and rules, and that is OK but the cycle path network doesn’t cover the entire city. This all resumes to a simple logic: You got to surf with the wave.
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Re: Lines erased E-Bike / E-Scooter / E Motorcycle

Post by LockH » Oct 14 2018 8:22am

wturber wrote:
Oct 13 2018 3:14pm
biggy wrote:
Oct 13 2018 1:58pm
If you've ever watched a bicycle road race on TV and looked at the miles per hour that those guys are going then you know a man powered bicycle is very capable of high speeds.
Sure. But how often does that occur among the general population while commuting or riding for sport? Almost never.
Hehe... Actually? Happens daily... hourly... "down" hills... :wink:
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Re: Lines erased E-Bike / E-Scooter / E Motorcycle

Post by liveforphysics » Oct 14 2018 3:33pm

Everytime a car passes you, it's a dice roll on whether they are texting and only notice you from the BUMP BUMP as they go under the tires.

If cars don't pass you, or pass you less, your number of car death dice rolls reduces drastically.

No prizes awarded for getting slaughtered by cars by riding slow ebikes, you just die having ridden a boring bike first.
Each carcinogen vapor exposure includes a dice roll for cancer.

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Re: Lines erased E-Bike / E-Scooter / E Motorcycle

Post by LockH » Oct 14 2018 4:06pm

^^ Hehe... 21st-century urban.... more familiar w/passing "traffic" watts just in the way... :wink:
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