Ut Oh Cooked Another

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
markz   100 GW

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Ut Oh Cooked Another

Post by markz » Feb 14 2020 5:47pm

Noticed the motor not putting out like it used to.
Havent been riding it any different then before, nor any big hills or anything.

The cover plate is cracked a hair and I can smell it
like an off paint kinda smell....
winding enamel
Roasty :kff:
1st roast - old brushed 250W - Came as a suprise but shouldnt it have, long hill. Bad brushes so threw it out. Old tech.

2nd roast - d.d. mxus 3000W - Long long hill with no chain, I should have known better. Lots of mass for heat shed, might go back to mxus 3kw.

3rd roast - d.d. smaller then a 9C - Half expecting it to roast.

4th roast - d.d. 9C clone - Not sure how I roasted it but it roasted.



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Time to wire up the Norco cruiser with the Leaf 1500W, sensorless greentime controller.
Will definately order some magic juice for the Leaf 1500W
https://www.ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bic ... orade.html
and a BBQ temperature probe with audible alarm

markz   100 GW

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Re: Ut Oh Cooked Another

Post by markz » Feb 14 2020 8:47pm

Done, had supper from 5:17 to 6:25pm, used the extra 20 minutes for mounting cont and battery.

Wheel was already bolted on. So I snipped off the stock O-Loop connectors on motor and cont for the phases.
Who uses the O-Loop connectors????

Got the throttle soldered on, and double shrink wrapped. I left the first one long, then folded over and shrunk the 2nd overtop.
Got the phase wires soldered on and taped and heat shrunk.
Handlebar on, with throttle.
Battery fits snug, used some shelf mats from Dollarama and tripled it up on the topside of the bar for the hose clamps so it doesnt wreck the paint job. Always does tho a lil bit, rubbing and moving all the time.

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MadRhino   100 GW

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Re: Ut Oh Cooked Another

Post by MadRhino » Feb 14 2020 9:08pm

Canmore has enough hills to fry a motor a year, conservatively. :D
There was a time I was frying 3 a season in the small mountain here.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
Current bikes
Street: https://s20.postimg.org/ewrvugywt/Session_04_2015.jpg
Dirt: https://s20.postimg.org/lbqwr55ml/IMG_0157.jpg

markz   100 GW

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Re: Ut Oh Cooked Another

Post by markz » Feb 14 2020 11:43pm

36V 35A Greentime Sensorless
Leaf 1500W Rear (DD)
Norco Santiago - Probably a 2015 - http://www.bikeroar.com/products/norco/santiago-2015
The extra 10A is well worth the upgrade, pushing 380lbs :oops:

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John in CR   100 GW

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Re: Ut Oh Cooked Another

Post by John in CR » Feb 14 2020 11:53pm

markz wrote:
Feb 14 2020 11:43pm

pushing 380lbs
With that kind of load you need to stop playing with the little kiddie motors, as well as learn to use small diameter tires or you'll continue to waste time and money, and endure the embarrassment of the "walk of shame".

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jpacadd   10 mW

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Re: Ut Oh Cooked Another

Post by jpacadd » Feb 15 2020 12:41am

markz wrote:
Feb 14 2020 5:47pm
roasted.
Could have just bought a BBSHD in the first place :P
July 2019 first build: 2009 Giant Trance X3 with stock BBSHD 52V
Next build: Just bought used 2009 Giant Trance X4, likely BBSHD also, maybe hotter controller/battery, undecided
Lots of other fun toys: Wildcat X, Xtrainer, 1978 KE100, Hypermotard 1100

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Re: Ut Oh Cooked Another

Post by john61ct » Feb 15 2020 7:16am

Yah I never entertained the idea of getting a rig without an over-temp amps de-rating or at least cutoff.

Isn't that considered pretty basic functionality? Is there any reason to avoid it other than cost?

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spinningmagnets   100 GW

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Re: Ut Oh Cooked Another

Post by spinningmagnets » Feb 15 2020 7:53am

John in CR has had large rear hubmotors in small diameter wheels. He lives in Costa Rica which is very hilly. If I recall correctly...

1) Use a model of hubmotor with thin laminations for high efficiency and low waste-heat.

2) High volts/lowest possible amps to get the job done

3) Smallest possible rear wheel (16-inch motorcycle tire is similar to 20-inch bicycle?)

Shenta Tsai built a Honda Grom conversion with these same principles, and called it the "Red Devil" (search youtube) It may look a little odd to have a small rear wheel, but the physics involved are sound.

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Re: Ut Oh Cooked Another

Post by john61ct » Feb 15 2020 7:59am

If riding very rough surfaces over rocks branches ditches washboarding,

is it OK to stay at say 26" O.D. on the front and 20" on the rear,

assume fattie tires

as far as avoiding rim/wheel damage, as well as at least minimal comfort?

I always assumed that factor would require a similar diameter both front and back.

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spinningmagnets   100 GW

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Re: Ut Oh Cooked Another

Post by spinningmagnets » Feb 15 2020 8:47am

For log-hopping and similar obstacle riding I think I'd have to use large-diameter wheels and a high bottom bracket. If it was me, I'd get a LightningRods mid mount motor with a left-side chain direct to the rear wheel.

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dogman dan   100 GW

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Re: Ut Oh Cooked Another

Post by dogman dan » Feb 15 2020 8:50am

Not surprised by a few of those roasts, but you'd think the big muxus would have lasted, even on 72v 40 amps.

I got kind of tired of roasting motors, which I did pretty often when I ran 72v. That 3000w power was nice, but I only got away with it in the cold winter weather.

Best advice so far, going to 20" rim. Worth learning to weld to make custom bikes with room for a big scooter wheel back there, or at least a 20" bike rim. It really works, John taught us that. see the sig for the frame I made for 20" rear motor.

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DogDipstick   1 kW

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Re: Ut Oh Cooked Another

Post by DogDipstick » Feb 15 2020 8:58am

markz wrote:
Feb 14 2020 8:47pm
Done, had supper from 5:17 to 6:25pm, used the extra 20 minutes for mounting cont and battery.

Wheel was already bolted on. So I snipped off the stock O-Loop connectors on motor and cont for the phases.
Who uses the O-Loop connectors????

Got the throttle soldered on, and double shrink wrapped. I left the first one long, then folded over and shrunk the 2nd overtop.
Got the phase wires soldered on and taped and heat shrunk.
Handlebar on, with throttle.
Battery fits snug, used some shelf mats from Dollarama and tripled it up on the topside of the bar for the hose clamps so it doesnt wreck the paint job. Always does tho a lil bit, rubbing and moving all the time.

What is an "oloop"? connector? Never heard of that.

If you mean "ring terminal".. I use them for my hub for over 8Kw and the wire is only 3mm^2..... Work fine for me.
Allota Watts @ 83.1v of raw QS power takes me everywhere on my Ironhorse DW link XC... :) Powered by Chevy. :D Broke 10 horses the other day. ( BTW; ...it will hurt you... :? )... (Currently building a battery datalogger.). :roll: Playin with (24) IRFB4115s now. :wink:

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Re: Ut Oh Cooked Another

Post by john61ct » Feb 15 2020 10:37am

spinningmagnets wrote:For log-hopping and similar obstacle riding I think I'd have to use large-diameter wheels and a high bottom bracket. If it was me, I'd get a LightningRods mid mount motor with a left-side chain direct to the rear wheel.
Log-hopping to me implies a more sporty ride than I'm talking - utility, heavy loads at low speeds, carrying cargo maybe tandem, throw in some big hills too, having fun a side effect only not a design goal.

But yes I figure sticking to 26" o.d. with 3" or fattie is what I need just need Big Torque and high volts to get there.

Will check out LightningRods, thanks, first I've heard.

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spinningmagnets   100 GW

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Re: Ut Oh Cooked Another

Post by spinningmagnets » Feb 15 2020 11:23am

Direct-Drive hubmotors are at low RPMs when traveling at low speeds (obviously), so they draw high amps. A geared hubmotor spins the motor five times for every wheel revolution, but they have a poor heat-shedding path. Common mid drives are limited by the power that the bicycle drivetrain can survive for any length of time.

By moving the motor outside the hub, you can still have a reduction externally to keep the motors' magnet-speed up. Also, it has much better heat-shedding. By driving the rear wheel directly, you can have a very high level of power.

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Re: Ut Oh Cooked Another

Post by john61ct » Feb 15 2020 11:40am


spinningmagnets wrote:moving the motor outside the hub, you can still have a reduction externally to keep the motors' magnet-speed up. Also, it has much better heat-shedding
Yes warming up to that idea.

> By driving the rear wheel directly, you can have a very high level of power.

Do you literally mean directly?

I thought another nice thing about getting away from DD, maybe save my pennies to go to a Rohloff Speedhub one day.

14-speed 526% ratio, tune the motor gearing to keep torque at worst case well under the Rohloff' max tolerance of 130 N.m

I don't care about top speed "at all", **if** slow is required to get that high torque needed, but this way can get best of both, right?

That, plus the CAv3 heat de-rating, try to maximize the drive train, but also prevent breaking down out in the middle of Utah BLM land somewhere.

I like the Lightning Rod adoption of those HD chains, you think better than belt drive? I do prefer quiet. . .



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Re: Ut Oh Cooked Another

Post by John in CR » Feb 15 2020 11:59am

john61ct wrote:
Feb 15 2020 7:59am
If riding very rough surfaces over rocks branches ditches washboarding...
That kind of riding with MarkZ's load requires an electric motorcycle.

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Re: Ut Oh Cooked Another

Post by john61ct » Feb 15 2020 12:03pm

You're saying 400lbs is a lot?

Is there a black and white boundary line? If so how is it defined?

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DogDipstick   1 kW

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Re: Ut Oh Cooked Another

Post by DogDipstick » Feb 15 2020 12:13pm

How long does it take to roast a motor?

I got 600+ mi on my LeafMotor Clone ( qs 205 v1 35H) at over 3.3Kw contin.. 50 A @ 80v~.... and peaks over 7500w...easy.. When is it going to KABloom and what will it usually take out with it?

I do have thermal rollback set at 180*-ish... but I dont hit that unless really big hill. Close, I run usually round 140* or more...
Allota Watts @ 83.1v of raw QS power takes me everywhere on my Ironhorse DW link XC... :) Powered by Chevy. :D Broke 10 horses the other day. ( BTW; ...it will hurt you... :? )... (Currently building a battery datalogger.). :roll: Playin with (24) IRFB4115s now. :wink:

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spinningmagnets   100 GW

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Re: Ut Oh Cooked Another

Post by spinningmagnets » Feb 15 2020 12:28pm

By driving the rear wheel directly, you can have a very high level of power.

Do you literally mean directly?
Whenever most posters here talk about a mid drive, they mean a mid-mounted motor that passes its power through the bottom bracket, using the bikes own gears to help the motor. Giving the motor some gears to work with (If I may be allowed to call a direct-drive hubmotor a "one speed"), is very important for low powered drives, like the 250W-500W ebikes that are street-legal in the EU.

Quite a few people are now using the BBSHD at 2500W, but they also report the chain wears out faster than before. For 3000W+, I'd use a chain direct from the motor to the wheel, and also I'd use #215 chain.

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Re: Ut Oh Cooked Another

Post by john61ct » Feb 15 2020 12:52pm

Well, starting a design from scratch, there is no "bike's own gears", really, just what's best for the human power vs the motor and whether/how they work together.

My goal is primarily big torque at very low rpm, heavy loads getting pushed up steep hills.

So, the #215 chain is nice and strong to handle that.

If I understand what you're saying with the Lightning Rod idea, the motor output already has a gearing ratio, but only one, not shifted.
spinningmagnets wrote:For 3000W+, I'd use a chain direct from the motor to the wheel, and also I'd use #215 chain.
But again, by "direct" you mean no further gearing, no shifting possible?

If there is an additional gearing available, a nice strong one like Rohloff, won't that extend the use of the motor also to the higher speed smooth-flat road cruising context?

Otherwise the LR motor is only used for the low end grunt work, and maybe a second DD hub is needed to take over for cruising time? Seems a waste. . .


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Re: Ut Oh Cooked Another

Post by John in CR » Feb 15 2020 1:31pm

Big loads up steep hills along with reasonably fast cruising on the flats is dual use enough to justify a multi-speed. My favorite solutions for a 2 speed are:

Retro-Direct- Where changing gear is simply reversal of spin direction of the motor. It's simplicity is quite elegant, but you give up the ability to roll backward with some extra clutch assembly (maybe an electromagnetic toothed clutch that freewheels in the powered on state).

The other I don't know the name of or remember the name of the stand up scooter that has the patent. Basically it's a dual belt or chain rig with 2 different gearings. The low speed has an over-running clutch such as a bike freewheel to allow the driven shaft to spin faster than the low gear would allow if it didn't freewheel. Then you need a way to disengage the high speed drive.

For my own use, since I wouldn't need to change gears often or back and forth from high to low, I'd just go with dual sprockets or pulleys front and rear with the same total tooth count for high and low. Then by releasing the chain or belt tensioner I would simply move the chain over to high or low, for a bomb-proof solution.

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Re: Ut Oh Cooked Another

Post by john61ct » Feb 15 2020 2:00pm

All that is way over my head.

KISS, what do you think is so wrong with just using a Lightning Rods type motor to just drive a strong IGH ?

The same IGH that is driven by pedaling, in fact could be PAS once up to a decent speed, or human-power only when that is appropriate?

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Re: Ut Oh Cooked Another

Post by markz » Feb 15 2020 2:39pm

John in CR wrote:
Feb 14 2020 11:53pm
With that kind of load you need to stop playing with the little kiddie motors, as well as learn to use small diameter tires or you'll continue to waste time and money, and endure the embarrassment of the "walk of shame".
I feel what you are saying.

That is why I liked the mxus 3000W, but it was in a 26" wheel.


jpacadd wrote:
Feb 15 2020 12:41am
Could have just bought a BBSHD in the first place :P
I do have a Cyclone 4000W
The problem as to why I did not install it. The crank/fw arm had the pedal hole bored out, a problem I was having for awhile, probably due to laziness and not keeping up with the tightening/checking every so often. Use of Loctite solved the problem of loosening pedal that would mangle up the arm thread/hole. Ontop of that, I am too cheap which is costly, to order a full crank. Had fears of more pedal problems. I did not like the noise of the Cyclone, but I think I would bare it now. The controller, I dont know the LVC of and cant remember what it was, tried fooling around with it, bluetooth was over my head. Big bad winter is over, so will work on the mid drive fat bike over the next few months.



dogman dan wrote:
Feb 15 2020 8:50am
Not surprised by a few of those roasts, but you'd think the big muxus would have lasted, even on 72v 40 amps.

I got kind of tired of roasting motors, which I did pretty often when I ran 72v. That 3000w power was nice, but I only got away with it in the cold winter weather.

Best advice so far, going to 20" rim. Worth learning to weld to make custom bikes with room for a big scooter wheel back there, or at least a 20" bike rim. It really works, John taught us that. see the sig for the frame I made for 20" rear motor.
I will tell ya exactly where I think I roasted the MXUS. Up this hill, no chain at the time.
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.0612531 ... 312!8i6656
It was my stupidity. After a long day of cruising around, I decided to go up that hill. I was tired, I was sweating, it was a hot hot day and all I wanted to do was hit the DQ for some ice cream.

But yeah, the smaller motors would burn I knew.
I thought that fat front 9C clone was holding up well, even though it was 36V 26A I liked I had to pedal up the hills, guess my laziness did me in again.

DogDipstick wrote:
Feb 15 2020 8:58am
What is an "oloop"? connector? Never heard of that.

If you mean "ring terminal".. I use them for my hub for over 8Kw and the wire is only 3mm^2..... Work fine for me.
Yes ring terminal. Its automotive style.
Ring terminal
https://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/gard ... p.html#srp




John in CR wrote:
Feb 15 2020 11:59am
That kind of riding with MarkZ's load requires an electric motorcycle.
Which cant be used on pathways, sidewalks, brought on trains/buses. I actually dont ride fast, like to stay under the "radar".

I will have to lace the new leaf into a 24" bicycle rim probably go moped rim (19"), or weld up new rear dropouts for smaller dia.





DogDipstick wrote:
Feb 15 2020 12:13pm
How long does it take to roast a motor?

I got 600+ mi on my LeafMotor Clone ( qs 205 v1 35H) at over 3.3Kw contin.. 50 A @ 80v~.... and peaks over 7500w...easy.. When is it going to KABloom and what will it usually take out with it?

I do have thermal rollback set at 180*-ish... but I dont hit that unless really big hill. Close, I run usually round 140* or more...
Depends, stall motor on a hill, wont take long. Not sure the dynamics of the roast on the last one. I guess I felt the power less a day before, but going up a slight hill I was not increasing speed on a full battery so I knew.

john61ct wrote:
Feb 15 2020 12:03pm
You're saying 400lbs is a lot?

Is there a black and white boundary line? If so how is it defined?
Well for a human being, its obese so its a lot!
6'5" should be at least in the upper 200's but ideal say 250 and under, fit status, low 200's.

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Re: Ut Oh Cooked Another

Post by john61ct » Feb 15 2020 2:57pm

But the person pedaling might be less than half the total load, kids, shopping, cases of beer. . .

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spinningmagnets   100 GW

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Re: Ut Oh Cooked Another

Post by spinningmagnets » Feb 15 2020 3:07pm

If there is an additional gearing available, a nice strong one like Rohloff, won't that extend the use of the motor also to the higher speed smooth-flat road cruising context?
The Rohloff is known to be exceptionally strong. However the gears have a very narrow range between each one, so users have reported that they often end up shifting two gears at a time. The good news is that if you run too much power through the 14 gears, the hub has a calibrated shear-pin that will break before the gears do. Unfortunately, if the shear-pin does break, you have to send it to an authorised Rohloff dealer to get it fixed, and pay Rohloff prices.

Of course you can replace the broken shear-pin with a case-hardened steel pin, but then... if one of the gears breaks after that, they will not honor the warranty. It might work in your application, but it would be an expensive experiment...

If you insist on running the motor power through the IGH gears, the second gear of a 3-speed is the strongest one out there. Of course that would not give you much of a gear-spread.

Side note, one of the other benefits of the #215 chain is that for a given diameter of driven sprocket on the rear wheel (the larger of the two sprockets), the small driving sprocket can be smaller due to the smaller size of chain-link/teeth. This means you can have a lot more reduction, which adds up to more wheel-torque per a given input watts.

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